Mid east

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,12:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the other hand, there is no need or reason for Jewish terrorist groups, since the Jews have the state on their side.<span id='postcolor'>

Here, let me try:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the other hand, there is no need or reason for Palestinian terrorist groups, since the Palestinians have the Palestinian Authority on their side.<span id='postcolor'>

Confusing, isn't it?!

edit: I'll have much less time to respond over the next days. So lots of you folks just go ahead and hurl your accusations and lopsided news reporting, like you always do.

[Longinius 1]

I thought Israel was run by the Israeli government? And since they are the ones occupying Palestinian ground, what would be the reason for jewish terrorist groups to exist?

If Palestinians were occupying Israeli ground however and building illegal settlements there I am sure we would see more Israeli terrorists (or freedomfighters, depending on who you ask). But since the IDF exists and the Israelis are doing the occupying, there is no reason for jewish terrorist groups to exist.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 13 2003,12:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 13 2003,125)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If how Israel was created was right then half of the world will be in war.<span id='postcolor'>

You said a mouthful.

Extrinsically, Israel was created by an act of the UN. In 1948, it would have had smaller borders but the Arabs sought to annihilate the Jewish State. Same thing happened in 1967.

Indeed, if everyone behaved like the Arabs, half the world will be in war. I fully agree with that statement of yours. <span id='postcolor'>

Ok let's recap the history again.

1. The population of jews prior to 1850 was only 5 procent of palestine

2. 1850 begand the the jews from many parts of the world to move and settle in palestine

Jewish attitude towards Arabs upon reaching Palestine

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves

in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism.

They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination."

Zionist writer Ahad Ha`am,

quoted in Sami Hadawi,"BitterHarvest."

3. The zionism belive is to create a jewish state out of palestine.

Sow in your belive its ok for people to come after 1800 years and claim the land and kick the

people out of it and if they are fighting back they are either terrorist or anti semit.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 13 2003,12:o4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,12:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Avon, I am really interested in seeing you respond to Bernadottes post about Israeli terrorists. You said there were none, he provided examples. Was he lying? Cause honestly, I have no clue.<span id='postcolor'>I said there are no organized groups.<span id='postcolor'>

No you didn't.

But, if you want to discuss "organised groups" then you should look back to Israel's struggle for statehood under the British.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Eighty-four thousand troops had proved insufficient to maintain law and order in the face of a campaign of terrorism waged by highly oraganised Jewish forces equipped with all the weapons of the modern infantryman.  Since the war 338 British subjects had been killed in Palestine, while the military forces there had cost the British taxpayer one hundred million sterling.  The declared intentions of Jewish extremists showed that the loss of further British lives was inevitable.

In these circumstances His Majesty's Government decided to bring to an end their mandate and to prepare for the earliest possible withdrawl from Palestine of all British forces.

-- British Foreign Office statement in the NY Times, 14 May 1948<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 13 2003,11:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, just why did Goldstein do what he did? Did something snap? Got any ideas?<span id='postcolor'>

This is a very important question.   And it is an equally important question to ask when the terrorist is a Palestinian Arab.

Take for instance the first female Palestinian suicide bomber.  She was an ambulance attendant - a care giver like Dr. Goldstein.  Many of her patients were children gunned down by the IDF.  No doubt Goldstein also treated many child victims of Palestinian attacks.  While trying to do her job on several occasions, the IDF shot her with rubber-coated steel bullets.  Ultimately, she snapped.  So did Goldstein, although I don't think he was ever shot while trying to save lives.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 13 2003,12:o4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I'll have much less time to respond over the next days. So lots of you folks just go ahead and hurl your accusations and lopsided news reporting, like you always do. <span id='postcolor'>

Take your time.  And thank you for not calling us all anti-Semites, this time.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,13:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And since they are the ones occupying Palestinian ground<span id='postcolor'>

Israelis are on Israeli ground.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what would be the reason for jewish terrorist groups to exist?<span id='postcolor'>

They don't. That's my point.

Even if they did, they would exist because the Israeli government has gievn up land for peace, of which peace was never received.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Palestinians were occupying Israeli ground however and building illegal settlements<span id='postcolor'>

Israeli settlements aren't illegal.

[bn880 5]

Sharon says he is willing to give up some settlements for peace. Now if he could finally agree to remove all settlements then he'd probably be a peace loving man. Still, that's good news.

Top story

[Longinius 1]

"Israeli settlements aren't illegal."

I dont think everyone agrees on this...

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 13 2003,16:o5)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israelis are on Israeli ground.<span id='postcolor'>

But, last week you said...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,12:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ...keep in mind that precisely because of the complications and controversial status of the West Bank and Gaza, Israel never declared this an official part of the state...<span id='postcolor'>

And if Israel has built all those settlements on land that is not an official part of the state, how can you say this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 13 2003,16:o5)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israeli settlements aren't illegal.<span id='postcolor'>

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They lost that far earlier, since they have demanded compensation for what happened and as far as I know, payments has been done. I could be wrong however. But the responsible Nazis were brought to trial, convicted and killed. Justice was served. As far as I am concerned (a person who has no Nazi sympathies or ties) there never was a persecution card. If the Nazis had gone free and no compensation had been done, it would be another matter however.<span id='postcolor'>

I was referring to the palestinians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think everyone agrees on this...<span id='postcolor'>

I surely do. The palestinians started a war, got owned, lost some land, now they get to deal with it.

I don't understand how Israeli settlements are illegal at all. They captured the land, just haven't made it officially part of their country yet. If it's not theirs, whos is it?

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 14 2003,00:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The palestinians started a war, got owned, lost some land, now they get to deal with it.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you so shure about it ?

Were the Zionists prepared to settle for the territory granted in the 1947 partition?

"While the Yishuv`s leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israeli society- including?Ben Gurion- were opposed to or extremely unhappy with the partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state?s borders beyond the UN-earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians.

"Israeli Historian, Benny Morris,

in "Tikun", March/April 1998.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't understand how Israeli settlements are illegal at all.  They captured the land, just haven't made it officially part of their country yet.  If it's not theirs, whos is it?<span id='postcolor'>

How about the palestianas who have lived there for thousands of years.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 13 2003,23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think everyone agrees on this...<span id='postcolor'>

I surely do.  The palestinians started a war, got owned, lost some land, now they get to deal with it.<span id='postcolor'>

No.  The Palestinians did not start the 6-Day War.  Israel started it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 13 2003,23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't understand how Israeli settlements are illegal at all.  They captured the land, just haven't made it officially part of their country yet.  If it's not theirs, whos is it?<span id='postcolor'>

It is occupied land captured from Jordan and Egypt.  Settling occupied land is a violation of the Geneva convention.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 14 2003,06:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you so shure about it ?

Were the Zionists prepared to settle for the territory granted in the 1947 partition?

"While the Yishuv`s leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israeli society- including?Ben Gurion- were opposed to or extremely unhappy with the partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state?s borders beyond the UN-earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians.

"Israeli Historian, Benny Morris,

in "Tikun", March/April 1998.<span id='postcolor'>

So some Israelis wanted to expand with war? So what, some Americans want to bomb France. It's not a representation of the majority most of the time.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How about the palestianas who have lived there for thousands of years.<span id='postcolor'>

The ones who turned down the UN resolution alotting them different land?

And when you think about it, this is Jerusalem and Israel, a very religiously historic place. The jews had been there a long time ago.

[brgnorway 0]

5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 14 2003,045)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The ones who turned down the UN resolution alotting them different land?<span id='postcolor'>

? ..........would you mind telling me about that UN resolution please! You seem to forget that UN voted for two separate "states" - one for the israelis and one for the palestinians. No one turned down anything - but Israel took it anyway.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And when you think about it, this is Jerusalem and Israel, a very religiously historic place.  The jews had been there a long time ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Not only for the jews, but also for the christian palestinians and the muslim palestinians whom have lived there for thousands of years.

Look - there is no point in claiming who was there first - or who God gave it to. All of the parties can claim a religious and historical belonging to the area. The point is that the land and the sites must be shared in some way.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 14 2003,09:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">..........would you mind telling me about that UN resolution please! You seem to forget that UN voted for two separate "states" - one for the israelis and one for the palestinians. No one turned down anything - but Israel took it anyway.<span id='postcolor'>

UN resolution 181 formed two seperate palestinian states, one for the Jewish, one for the Arabs, Jerusalem being an international city. The arabs opposed the plan and attacked Jewish settlers in palestine even though they would of received almost 90% of British mandated Palestine.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not only for the jews, but also for the christian palestinians and the muslim palestinians whom have lived there for thousands of years.<span id='postcolor'>

So what gives these palestinians the rights to it? Lots of people have been living there, at least lots of major religions have.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Look - there is no point in claiming who was there first - or who God gave it to. All of the parties can claim a religious and historical belonging to the area. The point is that the land and the sites must be shared in some way.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree completely. The arabic states disagree, they want it all for themselves.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 14 2003,05:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">UN resolution 181 formed two seperate palestinian states, one for the Jewish, one for the Arabs, Jerusalem being an international city. The arabs opposed the plan and attacked Jewish settlers in palestine <span id='postcolor'>

This is indeed correct!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">even though they would of received almost 90% of British mandated Palestine.<span id='postcolor'>

....however, this is not!

The neighbouring arab states and the indigenous palestinians did not accept the deal because it meant that the jews would receive 56% of the area even though they numbered for only on third of the population and owned less than 7% of the land.

No wonder the arab nations wanted to help their palestinian brothers.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what gives these palestinians the rights to it? Lots of people have been living there, at least lots of major religions have.

<span id='postcolor'>

They have every reason to be there - just as the jews have in fact.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The arabic states disagree, they want it all for themselves.<span id='postcolor'>

Come on! Arabs are pragmatic too and times have changed. They know Israel is there and always will be. My guess is that they would be satisfied with a decent deal on behalf of the palestinians.

[Longinius 1]

Uhm....why cant they just share the land? Its so fekkin stupid.

Scrap Israel and Palestine, call the new nation Israstine or whatever and make a common government. Oh no, wait, that might mean peace eventually, bad idea.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 14 2003,04:o5)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How about the palestianas who have lived there for thousands of years.<span id='postcolor'>

The ones who turned down the UN resolution alotting them different land?<span id='postcolor'>

Let's say that during the years to come, huge numbers of Americans move to Iraq while it is temporarily under US administration.  Can the UN eventually alot half of the land to the Iraqis and half to the Americans? And what if the Iraqis refuse?  Can the Americans then expell droves of Iraqis, even though they've been living in those same villages for countless centuries?

Of course not.  There's no legal basis for it.

And if ruling the land thousands of years ago means anything, then don't be surprised when someday the UN gives half of the USA back to the Indians.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So some Israelis wanted to expand with war?  So what, some Americans want to bomb France.  It's not a representation of the majority most of the time.<span id='postcolor'>

I would agree with you on that but David Ben-Gurion wasent gest someone he was the leader and after 1948 he became the Prime Minister and then Defense Minister. So you see his view shaped the war at that time

"http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/ben_gurion.html"

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The ones who turned down the UN resolution alotting them different land?

And when you think about it, this is Jerusalem and Israel, a very religiously historic place.  The jews had been there a long time ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Grrrr Bernadotte beat me to it    

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 14 2003,10:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Uhm....why cant they just share the land? Its so fekkin stupid.

Scrap Israel and Palestine, call the new nation Israstine or whatever and make a common government. Oh no, wait, that might mean peace eventually, bad idea.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, yes Peace is bad for your health

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 14 2003,12:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, yes Peace is bad for your health    <span id='postcolor'>

May you be as healthy as we Oslo Accord guinea pigs:

[Longinius 1]

Got a chart of IDF's attacks to?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 14 2003,05:o0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> UN resolution 181 formed two seperate palestinian states, one for the Jewish, one for the Arabs, Jerusalem being an international city.  The arabs opposed the plan and attacked Jewish settlers in palestine even though they would of received almost 90% of British mandated Palestine.<span id='postcolor'>

90% for the Arabs?  How do you figure?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 14 2003,05:o0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> So what gives these palestinians the rights to it?<span id='postcolor'>

Palestinian Jews made up 30% of the population and owned 6% of the land.  What gave them the right to receive 50%?  (Btw... by 1950 they had nearly 80% and today their border encircles over 100%.)

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 14 2003,12:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 14 2003,123)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, yes Peace is bad for your health    <span id='postcolor'>

May you be as healthy as we Oslo Accord guinea pigs:

<span id='postcolor'>

Ohhh i forgat when someone is invading your country you should trow flowers at them and if they kick you out off your house then you should move the a diffrent country.

RIGHT!!!!

Building more settelments is the way to peace.

[theavonlady 2]

Silly me! I forgot that the Oslo Accords didn't say anything about dismatling towns in Judea and Samaria.

I also forgot to show some earlier statistics or what happens after signing the Oslo Accords with Arafat:

It takes 2 to make peace.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 14 2003,06:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Come on! Arabs are pragmatic too and times have changed. They know Israel is there and always will be. My guess is that they would be satisfied with a decent deal on behalf of the palestinians.<span id='postcolor'>

More naivity from thousand of kilometers away.