Mid east

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Bernadotte- your ability to misconstrue peoples words is probably unmatched in this forum.

Are you (A) accusing Brg-Norway of anti semitism?

Brg-Norway -"are you suggesting im anti semetic?"-

Bern-"answer the...question"

(what exactly anti semetic did he say?)

Or (B) Noone (the former IDF guy)

With his SARCASTIC and obviously satirical rant

(which i agree was a bad way of making his point-but hardly grounds for calling Noone antisemetic)

Or ( C ) both of them

And now im the racist?

The other two have made up, the only one provoking conflict here seems to be you (even with those who nominally agree with you)

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Feb. 15 2003,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bernadotte- your ability to misconstrue peoples words is probably unmatched in this forum.

Are you (A) accusing Brg-Norway of anti semitism?

Brg-Norway -"are you suggesting im anti semetic?"-

Bern-"answer the...question"

(what exactly anti semetic did he say?)<span id='postcolor'>

Of course I'm not accusing brgnorway of being anti-Semitic.  How did you manage to misconstrue that?  Brgnorway asked the question.  Why would I tell the person asking a question to answer it?

Brgnorway said nothing anti-Semitic.  It was Noone's post that was filled with anti-Semitic rhetoric.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Feb. 15 2003,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or (B) Noone (the former IDF guy)

With his SARCASTIC and obviously satirical rant

(which i agree was a bad way of making his point-but hardly grounds for calling Noone antisemetic)<span id='postcolor'>

I did not call Noone an anti-Semite.  However, what he posted was very anti-Semitic, whether it was a joke or not.  And it is only in the past few hours that Noone admitted to implying that brgnorway was an anti-Semite, although as some sort of joke to defend the IDF.  Haaa... haaa... haaa....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Feb. 15 2003,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

And now im the racist?

The other two have made up, the only one provoking conflict here seems to be you (even with those who nominally agree with you)<span id='postcolor'>

There is only one reason that I implied you were a racist.  When Noone implied that brgnorway was an anti-Semite you said, "The issue of peace or war in the middle east is too serious to accomodate petty squabbles."  These are nice sounding words, however I wanted to see how well you could avoid petty squabbling if someone aimed a similar implication at you.  So please stop squabbling.  Of course, you are not a racist.

And my quoting relevant statistics after Noone tried to convince us that the IDF has not killed children is not provoking conflict.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Feb. 15 2003,23:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And my quoting relevant statistics after Noone tried to convince us that the IDF has not killed children is not provoking conflict.<span id='postcolor'>

problem with those killed palestinian minors is that the palestinians won't release them for examination by a coroner.

why?

because they might find ak-slugs in them instead of m16 ones?

awful thought, ain't it?

since I suppose most of you don't read arabic, you can read interesting articles at www.memri.org.

these are articles out of real life arabic newspapers.

[bn880 5]

I don't believe that for a second.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Feb. 21 2003,23:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Feb. 15 2003,23:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And my quoting relevant statistics after Noone tried to convince us that the IDF has not killed children is not provoking conflict.<span id='postcolor'>

problem with those killed palestinian minors is that the palestinians won't release them for examination by a coroner.

why?

because they might find ak-slugs in them instead of m16 ones?

awful thought, ain't it?

since I suppose most of you don't read arabic, you can read interesting articles at www.memri.org.

these are articles out of real life arabic newspapers.<span id='postcolor'>

Whats next sam are you gonna tell us that all palestinians are actualy killed are by their own people.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Feb. 21 2003,22:o3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Feb. 15 2003,23:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And my quoting relevant statistics after Noone tried to convince us that the IDF has not killed children is not provoking conflict.<span id='postcolor'>

problem with those killed palestinian minors is that the palestinians won't release them for examination by a coroner.

why?

because they might find ak-slugs in them instead of m16 ones?

awful thought, ain't it?

since I suppose most of you don't read arabic, you can read interesting articles at www.memri.org.

these are articles out of real life arabic newspapers.<span id='postcolor'>

The next thing ya know, Sam will be trying to convince us that Israeli agents secretly used to set bombs at the US and British embassies in Egypt to make the Egyptians look bad.  I mean really Sam.  What fool would believe such a story?

And ya might want to read about the problems with Selective MEMRI

[Bernadotte 0]

News that's so bad it's good  Anyone interested in witnessing the birth of a major new crisis should watch closely.

For 30 years, the USA has condemned Israeli settlement construction in the occupied territories as illegal and an obstacle to peace.  Yet every year, the USA sends Israel another $3 billion in aid.  Additionally, the USA is about to provide Israel with another $12 billion in loan guarantees.  The $60 billion that Israel has so far spent on settlements would not have been possible without US support.  However, the only people in the world who seem to be blind to this great contradiction between America's words and deeds are the US taxpayers.

But how much longer can they remain blind when...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The NRP will get two Cabinet seats, the Housing and Construction ministry and the Labour and Social Affairs ministry.<span id='postcolor'>

With the NRP - the voice of the settler movement - in charge of housing and construction, the USA's foreign policy will be at even greater odds with the USA's Israeli aid policy.  Furthermore, the NRP's new role will directly conflict with the "Roadmap to Peace" being drafted by the "Quartet" (USA, EU, the UN and Russia), which states foremost that settlement construction/expansion must be halted/reversed.

I foresee a collision of international policies on an unprecedented scale.  Sharon is forcing Bush to side with either Israel or the rest of the world.  Something's gotta give and it's very likely to be Sharon's new government.

So the good news is that there may be new elections in Israel within a year.  And this time the electorate would know who to vote for if they don't want a far-right government that might threaten those vital aid dollars.

[IceFire 0]

Wow, this thread isn't a sticky anymore!!!

Finally this old thread is gonna GO!!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Feb. 23 2003,18:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow, this thread isn't a sticky anymore!!!

Finally this old thread is gonna GO!!<span id='postcolor'>

Are you a US taxpayer?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Feb. 13 2003,13:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 13 2003,02:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think it is very cute of little Belgium to claim the right to prosecute foregin nationals for something that they did outside of Belgium. It is however ludicrous.<span id='postcolor'>

Imagine a case where:

- the accused did not personally commit any of the crimes but ultimately bore responsibility

- the crimes did not take place in the prosecuting state

- the victims were not citizens of the prosecuting state

- in fact, the prosecuting state didn't even exist when the crimes took place

- the accused is kidnapped from a 3rd country and taken to the prosecuting state

- the accused is found guilty by the prosecuting state and hanged

I don't believe the ICC existed in the early 60s when Adolph Eichmann was captured, put on trial and executed.  And even if it did, nobody could blame Israel for taking the matters into their own hands.  It was a good thing what the Israelis did and I really can't regard such endeavours as "cute" or "ludicrous" when the crime is genocide.<span id='postcolor'>

Nine days after I posted this, an Israeli writer made a similar comparison.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I seem to remember a case where country A kidnapped in country B the citizen of country C for committing in country D crimes against the citizens of countries E, F and G, all this in spite of the fact the crimes were committed before country A even existed."

I meant, of course, the trial of Adolf Eichmann, to which we all agreed.

-- Uri Avnery in Counterpunch, 22 Feb 2003<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm... I wonder if he read my post.

[Die Alive 0]

Guess I'll post this here since the Iraq thread has enough visitors....

Arafat sent a telegram to Saddam Hussein in honor of the 'Id. The following is the text of the telegram as reported by the Iraqi newspaper Al-Jumhuriya

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Any kind of support and assistance from you in these difficult times will enable us to continue our persistence and resistance until we put an end to the occupation, in all its manifestations, of our holy Al-Quds [Jerusalem] and the Islamic and Christian holy shrines, and exercise our legal and lasting rights, based on international legal resolutions, and most importantly our rights for self determination, for repatriation, and for establishing our independent state with its capital Al-Quds Al-Sharif [Jerusalem]." <span id='postcolor'>

Translation... SEND MONEY NOW BEFORE YOU GET OUSTED! lol

-=Die Alive=-

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Feb. 26 2003,21:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Guess I'll post this here since the Iraq thread has enough visitors....

Arafat sent a telegram to Saddam Hussein in honor of the 'Id. The following is the text of the telegram as reported by the Iraqi newspaper Al-Jumhuriya

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Any kind of support and assistance from you in these difficult times will enable us to continue our persistence and resistance until we put an end to the occupation, in all its manifestations, of our holy Al-Quds [Jerusalem] and the Islamic and Christian holy shrines, and exercise our legal and lasting rights, based on international legal resolutions, and most importantly our rights for self determination, for repatriation, and for establishing our independent state with its capital Al-Quds Al-Sharif [Jerusalem]." <span id='postcolor'>

Translation... SEND MONEY NOW BEFORE YOU GET OUSTED! lol

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

I wouldn't trust your source very much. MEMRI is not only biased, bur an instrument of certain people with interest in the Israeli cause!

Ask yourself this question: whom would politically earn most sympathy by the article presented by MEMRI?

[Bernadotte 0]

From another good article in Counterpunch:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A recent investigation by the Guardian of London found that MEMRI's translations are skewed by being highly selective. Although it inevitably translates and circulates the most extreme of Arab statements, it ignores moderate Arab commentary and extremist Hebrew statements.

-- Kathleen and Bill Christison, former CIA political analysts <span id='postcolor'>

[Bernadotte 0]

Article in the Independent:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A pregnant woman crushed to death when Israeli soldiers dynamited the house next door; a few streets away a smear of the blood on the road where a boy aged 14 was shot dead by tank fire – this was the scene in the Gaza Strip yesterday, when the Israeli army was celebrating what it considered to be a big success.<span id='postcolor'>

You're probably all asking yourselves: How many pregnant women did Saddam Hussein crush yesterday?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Mar. 04 2003,12:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Article in the Independent:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A pregnant woman crushed to death when Israeli soldiers dynamited the house next door; a few streets away a smear of the blood on the road where a boy aged 14 was shot dead by tank fire – this was the scene in the Gaza Strip yesterday, when the Israeli army was celebrating what it considered to be a big success.<span id='postcolor'>

You're probably all asking yourselves: How many pregnant women did Saddam Hussein crush yesterday?<span id='postcolor'>

No.

I was asking myself:

How many rockets fired at Israeli civilian targets were there in the last few days?

Who lived in the house next door and what were they involved with in the past and up till now?

What non-civilian uses did these building take on over the last 2 years?

How is it that everyone else was out of the building but not the woman who died, tragic as it may be?

I see you're back from vacation with the same suppression of facts.

Avon signing off.

[Bernadotte 0]

...And don't forget:

"How big are the oil and gas reserves beneath Gaza?"

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 04 2003,12:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Mar. 04 2003,12:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Article in the Independent:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A pregnant woman crushed to death when Israeli soldiers dynamited the house next door; a few streets away a smear of the blood on the road where a boy aged 14 was shot dead by tank fire – this was the scene in the Gaza Strip yesterday, when the Israeli army was celebrating what it considered to be a big success.<span id='postcolor'>

You're probably all asking yourselves: How many pregnant women did Saddam Hussein crush yesterday?<span id='postcolor'>

No.

I was asking myself:

How many rockets fired at Israeli civilian targets were there in the last few days?<span id='postcolor'>

How many?  Zero?  (And please post a reference, as I did.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 04 2003,12:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who lived in the house next door and what were they involved with in the past and up till now?<span id='postcolor'>

The people in the houses next door were evacuated safely before the demolition.  It was the man, pregnant woman and son who lived in the house backing up on to the demolished home that were not evacuated.  Rather they were ordered to remain indoors.  The husband suffered a fractured neck and could not save his wife who was crying for help from beneath the rubble.  Neighbours were prevented from coming to their aid.  (Perhaps you didn't read the article.)

Are you suggesting that they were intentionally ordered to remain inside because of what they may have been involved with in the past.  That's quite an interesting way of dealing with suspects.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 04 2003,12:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What non-civilian uses did these building take on over the last 2 years?<span id='postcolor'>

I trust you will find out for us rather than supress the facts.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 04 2003,12:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How is it that everyone else was out of the building but not the woman who died, tragic as it may be?<span id='postcolor'>

I already explained this above.  (Please read the article.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 04 2003,12:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I see you're back from vacation with the same suppression of facts.

Avon signing off.<span id='postcolor'>

While George Bush is about to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to make the world safer for pregnant Iraqi women, I couldn't help wonder why he doesn't do the same for pregnant Palestinian women.

I posted a link to an article and quoted the first paragraph.  That's all.  The "suppression of facts" that you fear is all in your hysterical imagination.

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Mar. 04 2003,06:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...And don't forget:

"How big are the oil and gas reserves beneath Gaza?"<span id='postcolor'>

What oil and gas beneath Gaza? Do you know something we don't and you refuse to post a link to that information?

Gaza does have olives trees, and those olives can be made into olive oil. So why drill to get oil, just pick the olives from the trees and make olive oil.

Hehe, Why the olives from Gaza Strip are bitter

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Let me tell you about those Gaza olives. First of all, they are the bitterest ones in the entire world. Gaza people say that the olives get their bitterness from life in the Gaza Strip, from the pressure of the Occupation.

And not only are these olives bitter, they can also drive you crazy with their saltiness. And that is because of the tears of the Gaza women. Tears they shed in the olive groves seep through into the olives". These are words written by Tal Belo, a Staff Sergeant in the Armoured Corps of Israel's occupying forces.<span id='postcolor'>

-=Die Alive=-

[The_Replicator 0]

Support Israel !!!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The_Replicator @ Mar. 04 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Support Israel !!!<span id='postcolor'>

Support peace-deal efforts!!!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 04 2003,20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The_Replicator @ Mar. 04 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Support Israel !!!<span id='postcolor'>

Support peace-deal efforts!!!<span id='postcolor'>

We did. Staright from Oslo, your country. It sucked.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 04 2003,21:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 04 2003,20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The_Replicator @ Mar. 04 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Support Israel !!!<span id='postcolor'>

Support peace-deal efforts!!!<span id='postcolor'>

We did. Staright from Oslo, your country. It sucked.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe it did - although that is hardly a reason to abolish future attemps.

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (The_Replicator @ Mar. 04 2003,19:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Support Israel !!!<span id='postcolor'>

Why?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Mar. 04 2003,19:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Mar. 04 2003,06:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...And don't forget:

"How big are the oil and gas reserves beneath Gaza?"<span id='postcolor'>

What oil and gas beneath Gaza? Do you know something we don't and you refuse to post a link to that information?<span id='postcolor'>

I was just using a bit of sarcasm to make 2 points:

- Firstly, that the plight of Iraqi civilians would probably not get any more attention than that of the Palestinians if Iraq were not floating on oil.

- Secondly, one of the best ways to spew bullshit propaganda is to state something in the form of a question.  Examples:  I'd really like to know how much cocaine Bush has done since being elected president.  - OR -  "How many rockets fired at Israeli civilian targets were there in the last few days?" The answers to both could be zero, however the questions lead you to believe otherwise.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Mar. 09 2003,13:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"How many rockets fired at Israeli civilian targets were there in the last few days?"  The answers to both could be zero, however the questions lead you to believe otherwise.<span id='postcolor'>

That's because the answer isn't zero. It's not our fault you don't read about it in the *cough* Guardian *cough*.