Mid east

[Pukko 0]

I would like to speak of 4 points that I thought about reading the last pages:

1. The main reason that one cant compare Israel with the other nations actions that scout mentioned above, is that Israel is a nation which with much in common with 'the western' nations; it is a 'western nation'. And in the 'western community' there are common ruling ideologies which one will be critisised if not followed. There do is/was alot critisims against for example Russias anti terror actions; but probably due to the poorer relations and influence between western antions and Russia, the western world has given up - but not forgotten; if Russia wants to be part of EU, they have to live up to certain standards - seems to be a long way to go...

2. The fact that the suicide bombing will not stop at once if Israelis and Palestinians agree (or are forced to agree) to a solution (probably 100% Pal Westbank + Gaza) is NOT a valid argument at all in my opinion. If you have to choose between 'some years for the conflict to calm down' or 'a never ending conflict' - what would you choose. One major goal is to give the young Palestinians hope for a decent life - if successful there will be very few to none new suicide bomber requits...

3. US interests in Israel is to big parts due to, as Longinius writes, a massive jewish political lobby. Btw - I looked in a world atlas the other day over areas considered to be of a particular religion - the only two places with a Jewish star was Israel and the Washington area...

4. Please, and this is the wish for many 'international' Jews too, never mix Israeli politics with non Israeli Jews; Israeli politicians are NOT the leaders of all Jews in the world.  Even if many peolple disagree with Israeli politics, it does not have to do with antisemetism...

[E6Hotel 0]

Denoir:

“You need ground troops to secure the oilfields.â€

Agreed.  That’s what amphibious and airborne assault is for.  I’m reasonably confident that the 82nd, the 101st, and the USMC could establish points of entry if it became necessary.  After all, Operational Maneuver from the Sea is the future of warfare -- why do you think we keep trying to work the bugs out of the Osprey?

Afghanistan:  Does hurting Queda’s ability to carry out terrorism make the world a better place or not?  We’re not the only ones with a stake in this, as evidenced by the Brits, Canucks, and Aussies there.

Yugoslavia:  Late or not, what was our self-serving reason for entering this one?

Gulf War: Okay, no argument there.  As far as Rwanda is concerned, are we expected to resolve every war on the planet?  We might need a little help with that one.

Vietnam:  Again, what was our self-serving interest?  It might seem like hysteria now, but back then it was an attempt to help a country repel communist aggression.

Korea:  See Vietnam.

I’m not arguing that we’re the selfless saviors of the world, but believe it or not, it’s not all about the all-mighty dollar.  

Semper Fi

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ May 04 2002,06:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would like to speak of 4 points that I thought about reading the last pages:

1. The main reason that one cant compare Israel with the other nations actions that scout mentioned above, is that Israel is a nation which with much in common with 'the western' nations; it is a 'western nation'. And in the 'western community' there are common ruling ideologies which one will be critisised if not followed. There do is/was alot critisims against for example Russias anti terror actions; but probably due to the poorer relations and influence between western antions and Russia, the western world has given up - but not forgotten; if Russia wants to be part of EU, they have to live up to certain standards - seems to be a long way to go...

2. The fact that the suicide bombing will not stop at once if Israelis and Palestinians agree (or are forced to agree) to a solution (probably 100% Pal Westbank + Gaza) is NOT a valid argument at all in my opinion. If you have to choose between 'some years for the conflict to calm down' or 'a never ending conflict' - what would you choose. One major goal is to give the young Palestinians hope for a decent life - if successful there will be very few to none new suicide bomber requits...

3. US interests in Israel is to big parts due to, as Longinius writes, a massive jewish political lobby. Btw - I looked in a world atlas the other day over areas considered to be of a particular religion - the only two places with a Jewish star was Israel and the Washington area...

4. Please, and this is the wish for many 'international' Jews too, never mix Israeli politics with non Israeli Jews; Israeli politicians are NOT the leaders of all Jews in the world.  Even if many peolple disagree with Israeli politics, it does not have to do with antisemetism...<span id='postcolor'>

i'd like to refer to the points you made:

1st - russia is a major player in western comunity, its a major buissness partner, an alternate oil producer and is a huje bed for investments, and as i said before, european were broadening trade with russia and no attempt to sanction or any kind of interference was made. russia just growled it off.

and contrary to your view, money will win yet again here, russia is doing buissness big time, no hold ups froom any eu govt. but then europe is doing buissness with much darker govts. then israel yet no demand is being made to them.

fact is that since '67 europe was careful not to be to connected to israel in fear from any kind of arab reprisels. the major breakthrough was done after the Oslo accords.

2nd - for more then 8 years we waited for the PA to quell violence, yet it seems to be the elected strategy by this authority. we waited 8 long years of death and destruction, without almost any answers. enough is enough. the PA has shown its not doin anything to quell it. if alternate leadership will rise and show it doing it utmost to fight terror, then we will not stand in its way.

4th. im not saying it is but as i see all the attacks done on jews in europe i fail to notice any swift reaction other then in germany, as we do against any israeli groups that try to hurt pals.

and then again when i hear one of the Jenin committee members say "the Shield of David is like the swastika" then i really dont know what to say. when israel is recieving such a "special" treatment then what the hell do you want me to think. i dont think all are outright antisemtics but there are much more then you seem to addmit.

[Pukko 0]

Just a few short (and tired-stupid) comments before bed:

1: Probably the fact that Russia is poor and would suffer badly from sanctions play a part here. maybe..

2: Was that agreement (Oslo) really taken seriously by either side; did the living conditions of Palestinians increase dramatically? If you have no hope - why not kill yourself and take a few 'enemies' with you?

3: I have heard jews in Sweden complaining about, at least Sharon, Israeli politicians claiming to speak for all jews in the world; and thereby increasing the mixing up of all Jews with Israel.

[scout 0]

israel would suffer worse from any sanctions, so what?

pals had achieved relative stable economic situation since 1993. but doesnt it strike you that as soon as there were murmurs in the pal street about the corruption of the PA fighting broke out again?

hell, i dont like Sharon and his friends either!

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Benze @ May 04 2002,00:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

Propoganda anyone? Was this made by in the USA by any chance?

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ May 04 2002,05:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afghanistan:  Does hurting Queda’s ability to carry out terrorism make the world a better place or not?  We’re not the only ones with a stake in this, as evidenced by the Brits, Canucks, and Aussies there.<span id='postcolor'>

Just FYI, sending Australian troops was a poor decision by our weak Prime Minister John Howard. The fact he was in the US at the time and didn't consult with with parliament about this decision shows it was not logically thought through, but emtional.

Most people I know (I would say majority of Australian citizens) didn't agree with this decision.

[Major Fubar 0]

And if Israel pull out of Palestine and give them their land back, no, the suicide bombings probably won't stop immediately. But I bet they would gradually decrease.

Also, it would clearly show the world that Israel was just, and the victims in this conflict (although I get the feeling Israel doesn't give two f**ks what the world thinks about them).

I've said it many, many times before in this thread, there are no "good guys" in this conflict, just two pig-headed arrogant parties who refuse to back down and talk common sense.

[KingBeast 0]

Heres something interesting to thing about:

"As others have noted, Israel cannot be a democracy, be a state for Jews, and retain the territories it captured in 1967. Palestinian population growth is about to render Jews a minority in the region of ex-British Palestine. Annual population growth in the Gaza Strip is 4.5 percent a year, 3.5 percent a year in the West Bank, and 1.5 percent a year in Israel itself (including Israeli Arabs). Nearly half the Palestinian populations of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are under age 15. As a democracy, if it extends the vote to the West Bank and Gaza, sooner or later Israel will have a Palestinian prime minister. Time in this regard favors the Palestinians"

If there was ever a Palestinian prime minister of Israel, how would Israelis react hmm?

Prompt assasination ill bet. Even if he was a peaceful guy

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just FYI, sending Australian troops was a poor decision by our weak Prime Minister John Howard. The fact he was in the US at the time and didn't consult with with parliament about this decision shows it was not logically thought through, but emtional.

Most people I know (I would say majority of Australian citizens) didn't agree with this decision.<span id='postcolor'>

Fine -- just remember that sometimes, doing the right thing is not the same as doing the popular thing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And if Israel pull out of Palestine and give them their land back, no, the suicide bombings probably won't stop immediately. But I bet they would gradually decrease.

Also, it would clearly show the world that Israel was just, and the victims in this conflict (although I get the feeling Israel doesn't give two f**ks what the world thinks about them).

I've said it many, many times before in this thread, there are no "good guys" in this conflict, just two pig-headed arrogant parties who refuse to back down and talk common sense.<span id='postcolor'>

I partially agree with some of your points.  Returning to the pre-'67 border might strengthen Israel's moral position internationally, but don't forget that Israel already offered to return most (95%?) of the territory and was basically told by Arafat to get bent.  One party has already shown that they are willing to negotiate; what has the other side shown?

It would be nice to think that the attacks would eventually stop if Israel returned the land, but there's no reason to believe that would happen.  The goal of the PLO isn't a Palestian homeland, it's the destruction of Israel.  Maybe if the Saudis and Iraquis financed humanitarian Palestinian causes instead of martyr funds...

And as far as Israel not caring what the world thinks about them, I certainly can't blame them.  

Semper Fi

[KingBeast 0]

Personally I think Israel or the Israelis believe the only way out is violence because they think theyve tried everything.

Because lets be honest, have any of the military operations against palestinians EVER made things better EVER for anyone?

No they havent.

First off it makes things bad for the palestinians that get houses bulldozed and such. Second of all, it drives more people to go for the suicide bomber route.

Totally counterproductive.

Im not saying I know the solution, because I dont. But whats going on now and has been going on for ages isnt the right thing or the popular thing. And its funny that it can always be justified. For example "We have tried peace, they dont want peace so we shall blast the shit out of them and it isnt our fault "

I mean horrible things happen. Remember when a guy was to be assasinated (or something along those lines) so the Israelis blasted a car, only to find that the man they wanted was not in the car, but his wife and children were. Oops! Sorry about that! All in the name of justice though, honest!

Thats an extreme example, but you get the gist.

[Longinius 1]

Scout, I heard IDF units confiscate Palistinian property, like Land Roovers. There is even fierce competition between the units in taking and removing such equipment from the occupied areas and bring it back to base. From Arafats HQ some 23 jeeps were removed. Is this true?

[theavonlady 2]

I don't really participate here any longer but this is getting silly.

On the flip side, this doesn't even measure as a drop in the bucket compared to the vehicle theft rate commited by Palestinians here:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=21193

Bye.

[theavonlady 2]

LOL! A thought just occurred to me:

Have you been playing the "Steal The Car" mission too much lately?

[Longinius 1]

You dont see a difference between car thieves and military soldiers when it comes to stealing equipment? Does that mean you think the soldiers are criminal or the car thieves are acting within the law?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ May 05 2002,03:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I partially agree with some of your points.  Returning to the pre-'67 border might strengthen Israel's moral position internationally, but don't forget that Israel already offered to return most (95%?) of the territory and was basically told by Arafat to get bent.  One party has already shown that they are willing to negotiate; what has the other side shown?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, people always whine about how 'generous' it was to offer 95% of land and the evil pals declined. Let's make a comparison: If U.S. was under occupation, would you agree to a deal where you get all the land back, EXCEPT all the roads? This would efficiently fragment your new state to a ridiculous puzzle, forcing you to eat from the hand of the occupier of the roads. The so called 95% plan offered to the pals was just bullshit, because the israelis would have retained every strategically important area.

The prison analogy is the best I have heard so far. In a prison, prisoners control 95% of the 'land' but the walls (5%) are controlled by the state.

So in the negotiations, neither side has really offered anything worthwhile, thus showing that they are 'willing to negotiate'. Both sides are led by pig-headed bastards, only interested of the advantage of their own side.

[theavonlady 2]

No, it means I don't believe the story and I get to up this thread to 100 pages.  

Shucks! Oligo beat me to it!

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ May 06 2002,08:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You dont see a difference between car thieves and military soldiers when it comes to stealing equipment? Does that mean you think the soldiers are criminal or the car thieves are acting within the law?<span id='postcolor'>

It's funny how at some point of a conflict, everything perpetrated by a single member of one side becomes the fault of all the people on that side. Like somebody steals a car = all the people on that side are car thieves.

This does not normally happen. There is crime in every country, yet not all the people are considered to be criminals.

[Longinius 1]

I read about it in todays issue of Metro. TT - AFP was quoted as a source. I am looking for any other articles on this at the moment.

[ralphwiggum 6]

shoot all of you beat me to be first post on 100th page...

this is a new record! let's celebrate!

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ May 04 2002,05:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afghanistan:  Does hurting Queda’s ability to carry out terrorism make the world a better place or not?  We’re not the only ones with a stake in this, as evidenced by the Brits, Canucks, and Aussies there.

Yugoslavia:  Late or not, what was our self-serving reason for entering this one?

Gulf War: Okay, no argument there.  As far as Rwanda is concerned, are we expected to resolve every war on the planet?  We might need a little help with that one.

Vietnam:  Again, what was our self-serving interest?  It might seem like hysteria now, but back then it was an attempt to help a country repel communist aggression.

Korea:  See Vietnam.<span id='postcolor'>

Afganistan: Yeah, yeah, it's your 'great patriotic war'. Good thing bombing some camel jockeys does it for you.

Yugoslavia: In a democracy, politicians want to be re-elected. So if the press tells about the bad people killing the innocent people too much, then the illustrous politician has to do something to satisfy the John Smith slamming Budweiser and watching telly in a country bar. Also, munitions have an exiry date, so you have to dump them somewhere. But be careful to pull out before John starts to think: 'Our boyz are dying for nothing'. Bad press is always bad press.

Gulf War: Yeah.

Rwanda: The journalists just didn't drum this enough. Therefore it was not in the interest of the illustrous politicians.

Vietnam: When you are a kid, you fear the evil monster living under your bed. When you grow up, the evil monster loses his scariness, so you have to have a new one: Enter evil communism, which lives in some countries around the world. So you went to Vietnam to fight the evil monster living under your bed, oops the evil communism.

Korea: See Vietnam.

[theavonlady 2]

Got it in Hebrew:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite....assID=0 (could not find the article on Ha'aretz's English version news page)

Rough and abridged translation:

The jeep belonged to PA security forces and were captured and confiscated during Operation Defensive Shield.

The SO divisions started arguing about how they would be dicied up by the IDF's CCO, Shaul Mofaz, ordered all jeeps returned to the tech and logistics division for their assessment of which divisions will get the jeeps.

[Longinius 1]

Ok. So how legit is it to capture vehicles like that?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ May 06 2002,09:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok. So how legit is it to capture vehicles like that?<span id='postcolor'>

When you have a war and your enemy forces use their official vehicles to promote their activities, you have every right to confiscate their weapons and vehicles.

Simply amazing what nonsense you select as the news of the day in the ME.

[Hilandor 1]

i pressume things are still not working out in isreal etc, all of a sudden i see no news reports or anything as if its all over and forgotton about now. Media is amazing, let u see what suits it.