Us aircraft may have bombed us soldier

[§nake 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US Aircraft May Have Bombed US Soldier

United Press International

March 31, 2002

WASHINGTON, Mar 29, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- The first U.S. soldier killed during Operation Anaconda in eastern Afghanistan earlier this month may have been killed by an American AC-130, Gen. Tommy Franks said Friday.

The March 2 incident is under review by U.S. Central Command, he told reporters.

Green Beret Chief Warrant Officer Stanley L. Harriman, 34, of Wade, N.C., was in a convoy with Afghan fighters that came under mortar fire March 2, the first day of the 10-day American offensive in the mountains near Shahi-Kot. His death, at a place called Terghul Ghar, was blamed on enemy fire.

But it may have been at American hands. Franks told reporters that at the same time the convoy was reporting over the radio that they were under mortar fire, an American AC-130 was reporting on a different channel that it was firing on a convoy in the same general area.

"I put the two things together and said, 'OK, what we need to do is, we need to find out the facts associated with that,'" Franks said. "The coincidence is close enough that we though we'd better take a look."

It is one of 10 incidents into which Franks, commander of the U.S. war in Afghanistan, has called for an investigation.

"If we're honest and if we're sincere, we want to be life-long learners; in each one of these incidents, we want to learn from what we did," he said. "The answer sounds good, but the fact is that we are not ever going to be able to absolutely eradicate the loss of life, and in some cases the loss of the wrong life, when we're engaged in this kind of operation. Regrettable, but true."

Franks said the convoy in which Harriman rode was unlikely to carry an electronic transponder that would telegraph to American aircraft that it was a "friendly" force. The AC-130 would only know if a ground controller knew and radioed that information.

"If we determine that we can prevent activities where we have friendly fire incident by having greater proliferation of identification friend or foe devices, then I think we should do that," Franks said.

Harriman's convoy -- one of the leading edge forces of Operation Anaconda -- pulled back several miles after coming under what it assumed was enemy mortar attack, a tactical retreat Franks also attributed to vehicles that broke down wholly separate from the bombing.

Media reports have linked the fact that Harriman's forces were not in place to the furious assault American forces faced immediately upon landing in the south. Seven U.S. military personnel were killed during a gun battle March 4.

Franks said the two incidents were not related.

"I think the facts and the analysis won't bear it out because the incidents were miles apart. The incidents where the inserted American forces were well in the south of the operational area, the area where (Harriman died) was well in the north of the area. And so there actually was not a connection," Franks said.

Franks' list of 10 incidents does not include the bombing of a convoy of vehicles in December that was going to Kabul to attend the inauguration of Hamid Karzai as interim chairman. According to Franks, that convoy contained enemy forces and was a valid target.

"I have satisfied myself, based on a pretty substantive review of what went into that, that the signature of that, that the people in that convoy were in fact what we call a 'righteous target.' And so I've simply closed that out," he said.

"(I)t may well be that there were people inside that convoy that Chairman Karzai could be correct about that, but I think would equally acknowledge that there probably were a great many other people inside that convoy," he said. "And so the state of confusion caused us to believe we had a good target, and I believe that."

Central Command has already closed an investigation in to a flawed Jan. 23 raid on what was assumed to be two al Qaida or Taliban compounds near Hazar Qadam. Special Forces stormed the complexes and ended up in a gun battle that killed 14 in one and two in another. They took 27 prisoners. The military eventually released all of the prisoners when it was determined they had no connection to enemy forces. Franks said the shootings were justified because people inside the compound opened fire on uniformed U.S. forces.

"I mean, these were not guys cloaked in, you know, black sweaters and hoods. These were American soldiers wearing American uniforms," Franks said. "I find no failure of intelligence, because intelligence alerted me that there could be an enemy force in Hazar Qadam. I find no fault with very highly trained people who went on the ground. And I find no fault that those very highly trained people killed the people who fired at them," he said.

"I think it's regrettable that wars produce things like this, but I do not find it remarkable that people who wear uniforms and serve this country, when they're in the process of carrying out their duties and they are fired upon, will take extremely lethal action. And I don't think I'd want to change that," he said. "Each time we lose civilians or noncombatants in this, I regret it. But the fact of the matter is that this is a war."

Central Command is also investigating the bombing of a Red Cross warehouse on Oct. 16 and Oct. 17. The warehouse compound had a "long association" with Afghan military activities, and the Red Cross failed to identify it to the military as one of its facilities prior to the start of the war, according to Central Command.

In November, a U.S. convoy was hit by debris from a nearby bombing attack on cliffs. The convoy was not targeted and no one was killed or injured, according to Central Command.

On Nov. 26, an F/A-18 fighter conducting close air support dropped a precision munition close to friendly forces, injuring five U.S. forces. That accident has been attributed to "procedural errors in the transmission and application of friendly and enemy coordinates," according to Central Command.

On Nov. 28, U.S. helicopters mistakenly fired on a Navy Special Warfare Unit that was patrolling near the American military base in eastern Afghanistan known as Camp Rhino. No one was injured and no equipment was lost but communications and identification procedures were changed to prevent a reoccurrence, CENTCOM stated.

On Dec. 5, a B-52 bomber dropped a 2,000-lb precision munition on U.S. and Afghan forces fighting Taliban and al Qaida in a field battle. Three U.S. Special Forces soldiers and at least seven Afghans were killed, a number more were injured, including Karzai.

The results of the investigation have not yet been released but the Los Angeles Times reported this week that the problem stemmed from when one of the Special Forces soldiers changed a battery on his GPS receiver, used to calculate his location and that of the enemy, midway during targeting. Unknown to the soldier, the battery change reset the receiver to reflect his own position and that was the coordinate received by the bomber.

Central Command has also determined that a prisoner who complained of being beaten in Kandahar by American forces in February was injured when he "struggled and fought with his guards." His injuries were immediately reported and treated by medical personnel. However, that medical record did not follow the prisoner when he was transferred to Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba, forcing the investigation. The records were located and the investigation was closed.

Central Command is continuing to investigate the March 6 strike on a vehicle south of Shikin, during Operation Anaconda. The bombing killed 14, including three women and three children. One child was seriously injured and was immediately taken by American forces to a military hospital. The Pentagon did not disclose the incident for nearly a week.<span id='postcolor'>

Opinions?

[Aaron Kane 0]

This is obviously why we wont get an AC-130 in OFP

[madmike 0]

doesnt surprise me, yet again

[Tex -USMC- 0]

So, as it stands, the US military is better at killing its soldiers than the enemy is

[ralphwiggum 6]

old news....saw the news on either AOL news ticker or CNN some week ago.

during war, friendly fire is not unexpected.

so wasn't surprised at all when i first heard this.

[Placebo 29]

Such things happen in war unfortunately, according to the news the US military are investigating two seperate incidents of "friendly" fire.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

One of Murphy's Laws of Combat:

Friendly Fire- Ain't.

[Wobble 1]

close quarters, heavy weapons, lots of movment.. its bound to happen.

when you look at the EXTREME firepower, the amount of people, and the terrain, and the type of operations done.. what suprises me is how FEW of these types of incidents happen..

[§nake 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 02 2002,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">old news....saw the news on either AOL news ticker or CNN some week ago.

during war, friendly fire is not unexpected.

so wasn't surprised at all when i first heard this.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually..  yesterday..  

Heres some more news...  you guys remember that Chinook that crashed in the Philippines  back in february??

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US Recovers Chinook Flight Recorder

Associated Press

April 1, 2002

ZAMBOANGA, Philippines (AP) - A U.S. team has recovered the flight voice recorder from an Army helicopter that crashed in February and hope it may help determine the cause of the accident that killed 10 American servicemen, a U.S. official said Monday.

The two engines of the MH-47E Chinook helicopter also were recovered over the weekend at a depth of about 200 feet off the central Philippine island of Negros, U.S. Maj. Cynthia Teramae said. Eight bodies have been retrieved, including five found on Friday.

Officials have said it was unlikely that hostile fire was the cause of the Feb. 22 crash.

The flight recorder will be sent to the United States for examination.

The helicopter was returning to a central Philippine air base after ferrying the final batch of a 160-strong U.S. Special Forces contingent to southern Basilan island for a counterterrorism training exercise against the Muslim extremist group Abu Sayyaf when it crashed.

Witnesses saw the helicopter in flames as it fell, then exploded when it hit the water. Crewmen of an accompanying Chinook immediately retrieved three bodies.

Teramae said U.S. authorities were also investigating the crash Sunday of an unmanned American spy plane off the southern port city of Zamboanga. It has been used for aerial reconnaissance to pinpoint Abu Sayyaf locations on nearby Basilan. <span id='postcolor'>

I haven't heard about this py plane crash since this....  

[Wobble 1]

the "spy" plane was unmanned, it wasnt shot down. just lost control. my guess would be a leak allowing air into the hydrolic system of one of the control surfaces.. obvious guess... or maby a computer crash.. still running 98?

[Tovarish 0]

Yep well, that's war, friendly fire does happen, it's sad but just immagine how often the "bad guys" must be killing each other also.... I found This Story of a group of Canadian snipers that came within a meter of being blown to bits by an Apache's 30mm...these guys also reportedly have the highest number of confirmed kills of any regular army unit in the battle....way to go eh!

[Longinius 1]

"Yep well, that's war, friendly fire does happen, it's sad but just immagine how often the "bad guys" must be killing each other also"

To be honest, it is probably less friendly fire incidents on the Taliban and Al Queda side. Why? No heavy ordanance dropped from far away. No "automated" attacks performed against "possible" targets. Its more down to eart, man vs man incidents. Any friendly fire there is more likely to be discovered quickly and less likely to take out several guys in one blow.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 02 2002,07:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its more down to eart, man vs man incidents. Any friendly fire there is more likely to be discovered quickly and less likely to take out several guys in one blow.<span id='postcolor'>

Think about it, how easily do you think the Northern Alliance and Taliban/Al-Quaeda troops can tell each other appart? They're wearing pretty much the same stuff and using the same armament. But yes, you've got a point, especially when CAS aircraft are concerned, too often their speed makes it difficult for the crew to ascertain exactly what they're shooting at...for example I'm sure if it had been an A-10 instead of the Apache in the story I posted, there would have been 6 less Canadian snipers in Afghanistan

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

.these guys also reportedly have the highest number of confirmed kills of any regular army unit in the battle<span id='postcolor'>

Finnish sniper Lauri Häyhä got ~500 confirmed kills during the wars in 39-45. With no scope.

If those guys have more than that, I wonder how they

can sleep at night!

But to be in topic..

War is awful, people get killed.

[Tovarish 0]

I'm pretty sure they're talking about most confirmed kills in Operation Anaconda

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm pretty sure they're talking about most confirmed kills in Operation Anaconda<span id='postcolor'>

Of course yes. I'm dumb.

I should get more sleep now.

[DarkLight 0]

I've always loved snipers, in my opinion they're the best and coolest part of the army. I'd really like to be a sniper but i don't feel like obeing commands so i can't do it. And i'm way to young to even do a training! One of my friends has a sniper rifle and i really love shooting with it, it's a KICKASS gun.

Snipers rule....

[LauryThorn 0]

I personally think that it would be awful to be a sniper.

Watching your target walk, watching him talk with his

friends, taking a sunbath..

and then putting a bullet thru his/her head..

[RedStorm 0]

I would love to be a pilot or machine gunner though

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Think if the US military was run like a non-clan CTF or TDM map.

xxxx was killed by 0000 (FF)

Oops, sorry, cant tell the uniforms apart (and Im to lazy to actually identify what Im shooting at)

0000 was killed by xxxx (FF)

Oops, my bad.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Think if the US military was run like a non-clan CTF or TDM map.

xxxx was killed by 0000 (FF)

Oops, sorry, cant tell the uniforms apart (and Im to lazy to actually identify what Im shooting at)

0000 was killed by xxxx (FF)

Oops, my bad.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! Now that's a good one. I always hate fragging a teammate in CS when FF is on. It generally sucks a lot. I cant imagine how shitty some Spectre crew feels knowing they likely killed one of their own.

That article about the Canadian snipers was pretty cool. Nice to know that our boys can do more than police people. Being a Peacekeeper is a great thing..but once in awhile it's nice to see that you can be a Peacmaker, if you know what I mean.

[timmy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 02 2002,14:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'd really like to be a sniper<span id='postcolor'>

When youre just a normal solider who is just shooting at the faroff silhouettes so they dont kill you is one thing, but being a sniper is totally diferent. And 'usually' a sniper target isnt shooting back, and its not a life or death situation for the sniper. And you would be able to see the person laghing and talking through the scope, and youd have to murder him in cold blood. That just seems like a not so fun job to me.

[Wobble 1]

im sure that once you do fire and an entire army comes after you your sense of guilt is quite fleeting..

[KingBeast 0]

I think sniping is way way too glorified by films and games. Mainly because its so easy and often gives quite a power trip ie i have you in my sights, one mouse click and your dead. I have met so many people that are always saying things liek "snipers are so cool, i wish i was a sniper"

Aside from the moral and psychological aspects (seeing your target is actually human etc) there is also the being completely alone part. You dont have safety in numbers, its just you or just you and a spotter.

Then there is lying down in the same position for hours, and hours, and hours not to mention the strict field discipline. Reading about snipers in Ireland, they have to crap in bags, no hot food etc.

Id rather clean toilets to be honest

[§nake 0]

I found this from another message board.. I'm still looking for official news to back it up..

In Afghanistan, an American F16 dropped a 250-lb bomb on Canadian troops, killing 4 and injuring 12. We're all sitting around stunned, not knowing what to say.