ArmA 2 vs Project reality?

[bangtail 0]

Instead of these long winded threads that go nowhere how about making

small point point like posts to lists what needs to be changed in a2 to make it better

or more PR like.

That way modders could actually improve a2..

I don't know how easy it would be to make A2 "like" PRM. They are two totally different animals. I don't think that A2 lends itself well to PRM's large scale scenarios (definite technical limitiations there).

The necessary changes would making A2 more PvP friendly and I can't say as I'm all for that as it could potentially damage the established gameplay dynamics.

I like A2 for small coop sessions, in that capacity it is untouchable. I've played some Evo etc and it just doesn't feel right. I can't get into that type of gameplay with A2.

[.kju 3244]

So PR is more scale than whats doable in a2?

It sounds more like you never played real a2, like ESL, AToW, AGW, Charlie Foxtrot, IXXL,

crCTI, AAS and so on. Did you?

[bangtail 0]

So PR is more scale than whats doable in a2?

It sounds more like you never played real a2, like ESL, AToW, AGW, Charlie Foxtrot, IXXL,

crCTI, AAS and so on. Did you?

I've been playing/designing since OFP (2001) so keep your condescending comments to yourself. You certainly don't define what "real" A2 is.

The MAPS are huge in A2, that has nothing to do with scale when it comes to actual fighting. I don't like large scale fighting (16 x 16+ players) in A2, I like it in OFP but A1/A2 don't seem well suited to it. Of course, this is purely MY opinion.

All the elements are there in A2 but I just don't find that A2 has the "feel" of PRM in large scale battles.

As I've mentioned before, the squad system is also a MAJOR factor when it comes to PRM's success. The IG voice comms in PRM/BF2 are better than A2's and allow for squad based comms as opposed to 32 people trying to speak at the same time.

At the end of the day, they are very different and I just don't see A2 doing THAT TYPE of PvP game as well as PRM. Again, I am focusing on PRM's specific game model.

[metsapeikkoo 10]

Thanks for the links, i liked the video! Will think of joining when if i get the game. Even though i will try to join a Swedish squad, USA and brittish has such strange combat proceduers i think.

Bit offtopic but in my opinion swedish combat procedures are more or less outdated.

[galzohar 31]

Other than fixing VOIP, I don't see many (good) features that PR has that Arma 2 can't have via mission making. You can even create a whole town in the editor if you put enough effort into it and think the current towns are not suitable. You can make scripts for joining squads and then use group. Heck someone even tried making it (Devastation) but not a lot of people jumped into testing it. You can do pretty much any kind of respawn.

I wont' tell you which game is actually better, because it's a matter of opinion, but in terms of realism anything you do in PR can be done at least as realistically and usually more realistically in Arma 2. There's just no comparison between those games when it comes to realism. What kind of players are playing on public servers and what kind of missions people make for Arma 2 and run on their servers is a different story.

As for Arma 2 "not suited for X/Y/Z", I keep hearing people say that, but then again I don't see them coming to play the missions that actually get these things working very well. Sure, the more players and the more realistic the mission is, the harder it is for the mission maker to get it done right, which is why other games usually have a decent portion of their development team working on this, while Arma 2 is stuck with hoping community mission makers do a good enough job to make things work. But it's not that the game isn't suited for something, it just needs more work from the community for those things (aka C&H, no-respawn A&D missions etc) to get done right.

Edited November 7, 2009 by galzohar

[bangtail 0]

Other than fixing VOIP, I don't see many (good) features that PR has that Arma 2 can't have via mission making. You can even create a whole town in the editor if you put enough effort into it and think the current towns are not suitable. You can make scripts for joining squads and then use group. Heck someone even tried making it (Devastation) but not a lot of people jumped into testing it. You can do pretty much any kind of respawn.

I wont' tell you which game is actually better, because it's a matter of opinion, but in terms of realism anything you do in PR can be done at least as realistically and usually more realistically in Arma 2. There's just no comparison between those games when it comes to realism. What kind of players are playing on public servers and what kind of missions people make for Arma 2 and run on their servers is a different story.

As for Arma 2 "not suited for X/Y/Z", I keep hearing people say that, but then again I don't see them coming to play the missions that actually get these things working very well. Sure, the more players and the more realistic the mission is, the harder it is for the mission maker to get it done right, which is why other games usually have a decent portion of their development team working on this, while Arma 2 is stuck with hoping community mission makers do a good enough job to make things work. But it's not that the game isn't suited for something, it just needs more work from the community for those things (aka C&H, no-respawn A&D missions etc) to get done right.

When it comes to finding people to play with on public servers, I don't have much experience with this aspect of PR, but from what I hear from PR players it's much better there than here

By your own admission you havent really played PRM online, so your opinion is unlikely to be objective.

I've played plenty of large scale PvP in OFP/A1/A2 and I find it to be lacking in many areas.

I was never talking about which was "better". A2 is a great game and incredibly versatile.

I don't see A2 challenging PRM for that specific type of gameplay. A2 does many things but a large scale PvP game it is not (and it is unlikely that it ever will be because the majority of the community focus lies elsewhere).

And there IS a comparison when it comes to realism I'm afraid. There are aspects of PRM that are 100 x better than A2 (and vice versa) when it comes to realism. I've already mentioned the major ones in other posts so I'm not going to rehash.

Again, PRM is not a "mission" based game so I don't know why you keep bringing that up. I'll freely concede (again) that A2 is by far the better choice if you want to design your own content.

I was very clear that PRM is better at it's specific focus. It is not "better" than A2 in general. If you want a large, coherent squad based PvP battle out of the box, PRM belts A2, thats just a fact I'm afraid.

Will someone step and make something comparable for A2? Whose to say.

The BF2 engine is limited but PRM is still a very enjoyable tactical experience that relies heavily on team play.

Because PRM are careful about who gets the server software, the community is good (for the most part) and well regulated. People who show up to cause trouble don't last more than a few minutes.

They are both great, I wasn't trying to declare a "winner".

I leave that to the fanboys :p

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail

[galzohar 31]

"Out of the box" unfortunately just about any game I can think of beats Arma 2.

You keep saying PR is not "mission-based", but at the end a "game mode + map" is pretty much the same thing as a "mission", and the ones provided by PR don't have as much realism as what can be done in Arma 2, and this adds up to less realistic game mechanics present in PR (due to BF2 engine limitations).

Like you said, the main difference is the in-game cooperation enforcement, via easily managed squad structure and admins that do their job properly. Nothing that can't be done in Arma 2, but it simply doesn't get done because there isn't enough effort to get it done - not from game developers, not from mission makers and not from the players.

Bottom line is that you CAN have large player vs player battles in this game in a way that works great.

[bangtail 0]

Bottom line is that you CAN have large player vs player battles in this game in a way that works great.

Of course we can but we haven't since OFP IMHO, that's NOT where the focus is unfortunately.

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail

[An Fiach 10]

Of course we can but we haven't since OFP IMHO, that's NOT where the focus is unfortunately.

The problem with your assertions is that you are stating with near certainty, that A2 cannot provide that type of game play while ignoring the simple fact that it can. It simply requires the mission maker to do it, PR is a Mod after all, built on an arcade game. You are confusing what hasn't been done with what is not possible. An important distinction to be sure. Then in your last statement you admit that it can but that no one has done it.

So to summarize, ArmA 2 is simply lacking the missions. That is remedied by making the missions. BF2 didn't have PR until some guys got together and made it, likewise ArmA and A.C.E. The ArmA 2 engine allows for much greater flexibility than the BF2 engine.

True I've never played PR since I don't own BF2 (used to play it on my buddy's pc in the barracks) because I tired of arcade games years ago but all of the features I can see in PR are easily provided in ArmA 2. The biggest feature being restricted game play, or more properly, controlled game play that anyone that has played on the Tactical Gamers server has already experienced in ArmA 2 (TvT and COOP) where players are divided into proper squads and utilize teamwork and communication. Each round leaders are required to be in place before other players are allowed to choose their roles and the start of the mission is preceded by a quick strategy session at the map screen to determine marching orders and offensive/defensive positions are assigned to respective squads. During play, orders and positions are changed to meet the current situation. Respawns are limited if any at all reducing rambo type play and players that refuse to follow the rules are quickly removed from the server. Vehicles may be used but are implemented in the mission design so as to prevent missions from becoming vehicle centric (assuming the mission isn't based on vehicle combat).

Proper mission design and properly adminned servers provide the best game play you can imagine.

[bangtail 0]

The problem with your assertions is that you are stating with near certainty, that A2 cannot provide that type of game play while ignoring the simple fact that it can. It simply requires the mission maker to do it, PR is a Mod after all, built on an arcade game. You are confusing what hasn't been done with what is not possible. An important distinction to be sure. Then in your last statement you admit that it can but that no one has done it.

So to summarize, ArmA 2 is simply lacking the missions. That is remedied by making the missions. BF2 didn't have PR until some guys got together and made it, likewise ArmA and A.C.E. The ArmA 2 engine allows for much greater flexibility than the BF2 engine.

True I've never played PR since I don't own BF2 (used to play it on my buddy's pc in the barracks) because I tired of arcade games years ago but all of the features I can see in PR are easily provided in ArmA 2. The biggest feature being restricted game play, or more properly, controlled game play that anyone that has played on the Tactical Gamers server has already experienced in ArmA 2 (TvT and COOP) where players are divided into proper squads and utilize teamwork and communication. Each round leaders are required to be in place before other players are allowed to choose their roles and the start of the mission is preceded by a quick strategy session at the map screen to determine marching orders and offensive/defensive positions are assigned to respective squads. During play, orders and positions are changed to meet the current situation. Respawns are limited if any at all reducing rambo type play and players that refuse to follow the rules are quickly removed from the server. Vehicles may be used but are implemented in the mission design so as to prevent missions from becoming vehicle centric (assuming the mission isn't based on vehicle combat).

Proper mission design and properly adminned servers provide the best game play you can imagine.

I suggest you go re-read my post, I never said it COULDN'T be done. I said that it was unlikely it WOULD be done and that's just one of the things you've misquoted me on.

Secondly, you've never even played PRM so you are completely unqualified to comment.

You have the audacity to call me confused when I actually have extensive experience with BOTH games, unlike yourself. If you don't even know what it's like, how do you know if it can be transplanted? I never stated anything to a certainty, I stated MY opinion (and I even capitalized MY in my previous post).

PRM can't do about 90% of what A2 can do but what it does, it does very well.

Until you've actually played PRM, you have no business making the assumptions you have made.

Lastly, I am a big A2 fan - so you can lower your shields, I'm not out to put it down.

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail

[Lightninguk 0]

Instead of these long winded threads that go nowhere how about making

small point point like posts to lists what needs to be changed in a2 to make it better

or more PR like.

That way modders could actually improve a2..

i myself would not want a2 to be more like prm.

the games are total diff so you can not say 1 is better then the other as they are two diff game

and yes i can say that as i move from PRT to Arma and would not go back to pr/prt it was good in it day some players like the fast action jump stright in game modes ,but untill you join a tournament like atow/ic then you will say dam that was great.

[.kju 3244]

Well i simply asked whats difference and him to explain what he means.

He obviously doesnt want to tell us.

Whats the difference between VOIP and TS. Practically none. You can do just the same -

both need organization.

Edited November 7, 2009 by kju

[Geronimo 0]

Hi! I want to add my opinion to this discussion.

For some reason I like ARMA 2 way more and play it much more than PR. Since I am a gun nut, main advantage of ARMA 2 is far superior feeling of shooting firearms. Only game that has better gun behaving is Red Orchestra, but it is different kind of game. And since I love nature, nature in ARMA 2 is far superior to any game.

PR forces squad organization better on public servers, but when you play in a community like Tactical Gamer, you will forget what public server is. I bet PR has the same but then they are equal in that field.

But one feature that PR has is unmatched by any game, and I have never seen it in any mod for OFP/ARMA. That is suppressive fire. You will get heavy blur when you get under fire, and its intensity depends on caliber and proximity of bullet hits. It makes you highly ineffective to shoot back, which suppressive fire is all about, and why modern infantry tactics revolve around it. You can have arguments like "Ive got balls of steel and I would not get scared by bullets hitting around me, but I would face them and snipe them in the head", and even if you are actual Rambo, this feature takes in consideration average individual, and makes firefights take longer and look more realistic.

If some mod (hopefully ACE) can bring this feature to ARMA2, and simulate it for AI, it would make it the ultimate military game. IMO ARMA2 only needs that and some AI fixes to become ultimate in all fields.

[galzohar 31]

There is a reason Arma 2 does not have the suppression effects of PR, and it's not the developers not taking the time to implement it. IRL you may get scared and not go up against suppressive fire, but you also don't get blind and don't jerk around like crazy or any other kind of effect.

[Deadfast 43]

There is suppression effect in ARMA 2.

Your screen gets slightly burred (though I remember there was a mod that changed it something more "annoying") and your weapon will start swaying.

[sbsmac 0]

There is a reason Arma 2 does not have the suppression effects of PR, and it's not the developers not taking the time to implement it. IRL you may get scared and not go up against suppressive fire, but you also don't get blind and don't jerk around like crazy or any other kind of effect.

Oh please, since when have you had the hotline to Prague ? There are plenty of mechanisms in both games that are meant to represent real-life occurences that cannot possible be accurately portrayed in a computer game. I have played PR a bit and one thing that I really was impressed by was the feeling of suppression. Regardless of whether the mechanism was physiologically accurate or not it made me want to seek cover and it gave a distinct advantage to those who got their shots off first.

And BTW... http://dev-heaven.net/wiki/sbsmac-pvpsp/Insurgency Not that I seriously expect anybody to actually put any effort into this since it's far more fun to bicker about which game is best rather than do anything constructive about it. ;-)

[bangtail 0]

Well i simply asked whats difference and him to explain what he means.

He obviously doesnt want to tell us.

Whats the difference between VOIP and TS. Practically none. You can do just the same -

both need organization.

WTF are you on about?

I explained in great detail.

You just don't like the answers and YOU have your fanboy glasses on. I've never bad mouthed A2. In fact, quite the opposite, I've praised it's numerous advantages.

You just can't accept the fact that there are some things that other games do better.

Saying things like "you can do the same thing in TS or Vent" is all good. Actually organizing it for 64 players ISN'T as easy as saying it. Believe this as I know it for a fact.

That's the beauty of PRM, everything is there, you just jump in and play. That has been my point all along. A2 is a completely different beast.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

There is a reason Arma 2 does not have the suppression effects of PR, and it's not the developers not taking the time to implement it. IRL you may get scared and not go up against suppressive fire, but you also don't get blind and don't jerk around like crazy or any other kind of effect.

Now you're just making excuses and they are weak. I've backed up my claims and I've also given A2 it's due praise.

You and Kju have chosen to fly in the face of fact because you feel the need to defend A2 from what you perceive as an attack.

I'm not attacking A2, I love it. I've been playing and making missions for BIS games from 2001. I am an extremely loyal customer.

I simply understand that there are other games out there that offer a realistic experience despite their faults.

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail

[.kju 3244]

You are unable and/or unwilling to explain. Thats all.

I don't think that A2 lends itself well to PRM's large scale scenarios (definite technical limitiations there).

The necessary changes would making A2 more PvP friendly and I can't say as I'm all for that as it could potentially damage the established gameplay dynamics.

[bangtail 0]

You are unable and/or unwilling to explain. Thats all.

You are unable (or unwilling) to read, that is all.

I've elaborated a great deal more than the 2 lines you chose to quote.

Get over yourself, agree to disagree and move on :p

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail

[Geronimo 0]

Regardless of whether the mechanism was physiologically accurate or not it made me want to seek cover and it gave a distinct advantage to those who got their shots off first

Yes thats what I was talking about! Unless the game alters your control input somehow (which would be bad IMO) this is the only way I see that you can model suppression.

I have not been in a war but I got in a pair of stressful situations where I thought my life was in danger, and while I cannot remember details, one thing that I can remember is some kind of tunnel vision and lack of situational awareness, and acting by instinct rather than thinking. I dont think that I would be able to fire off accurate shots that require concentration.

Only thing that I've noticed in ARMA2 is that your aim gets a little shaky, like when you run for a while, but doesn't reduce your combat effectiveness much, even if you are sniping. And it doesn't affect AI at all.

But there is hope, the game apparently has some detection of bullets hitting around you, and if it can be made that it shows some blurred shader over your screen (like PR) that would be huge step in the right direction.

[Alex72 1]

How is suppression modeled in PR? Just curious as i never played it.

I think the blur and shake in ARMA2 isnt that bad personally. ofcourse it needs to have Post Processing option set to LOW at least. Same with when getting hit. I saw someone wanted to "feel" more when getting hit with camera shake, but i think that guy prolly didnt have PP on since that blurs the screen for a split second when getting hit. Along with the "UGH" sound. I think this is really good. Better effects than previous games in the series.

[bangtail 0]

How is suppression modeled in PR? Just curious as i never played it.

I think the blur and shake in ARMA2 isnt that bad personally. ofcourse it needs to have Post Processing option set to LOW at least. Same with when getting hit. I saw someone wanted to "feel" more when getting hit with camera shake, but i think that guy prolly didnt have PP on since that blurs the screen for a split second when getting hit. Along with the "UGH" sound. I think this is really good. Better effects than previous games in the series.

Sound, dirt spraying, blur, shake and it seems to effect your movement. You really have to experience it in order to get the full effect. I've never seen it done better. It really simulates that "deer in the headlights" feeling.

ACE2 may well change that for A2, we'll see.

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail
Accuracy of content

[Deadfast 43]

Sound, dirt spraying, blur, shake and it effects your movement.

Uh, what?

We must be playing two different mods then.

The last time I checked it's just your vision that gets blurred. Big time though. And it does make you pretty useless, which is indeed a good thing.

[bangtail 0]

Uh, what?

We must be playing two different mods then.

The last time I checked it's just your vision that gets blurred. Big time though. And it does make you pretty useless, which is indeed a good thing.

Must of been a while since you played. They overhauled it a while back. The movement may just be me but I always feel like it slows you down a little. The rest is definitely there.

It's harrowing and very effective.

Edited November 7, 2009 by BangTail

[Alex72 1]

There is sound in ARMA2 as well AFAIK. You hear your guy gasp (breathing) plus blur and shake. Dirt kicking up i guess is nice. Maybe doable in ARMA2? Some texture that splats up and fades away. Use "grunge" brush in PS to create the dirt.

Anyone wanting to do it - i can provide the textures