RL RPG unit, always using shaped charge?

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Hi

RPG means Rocket Propelled Grenade, but in all movies and footage I've never seen anything but the regular shaped charge ever being used. So, for Arma mission and realism sake:

In real life, how often would typical afghan insurgents use the tandem warhead or the anti personell warhead? I've read a lot of reports where RPGs are being fired against personell, but none have specified what kind was being used.

Would a well developed army like the russians be more subject to using specific warheads for specific reasons than a typical insurgent group that might be more of a "fire what you've got" kind?

I'm guessing that movies and tv series they will often wrongly use the "normal" shape charge, but how effective would it be for them to use this against regular infantry?

Any real life experienced soldiers care to comment about this, what they saw down there etc? Did you ever see a PG-7VR dual AT warhead or an OG-7V warhead ever being loaded, or stocked in a cache?

[Firehead 0]

I think they fire whatever they can get their hands on, don't think they know any difference(and niether would I if I were looking at them). They fire RPGs at just about anything, vehicles and personel.

I've seen a few RPGs here and there. The Afghan Police had the,, which was kind of wierd and unnerving at the same time. I also recall seeing different types of RPGs the gunner would carry, but I bet if I had asked him, he wouldn't know which to shoot at vehicles, and which to shoot at people.

[Windexglow 10]

^Don't underestimate the insurgency in Afghanistan, they've had decades to learn how to fight.

In afganistan they probably prefer anti-personnel rockets when in the mountains and anti-armor when ambushing vehicles/urban.

[Schurer 0]

I can tell from my two tours in Iraq and one tour in Helmand, Afghanistan as an infantryman that the insurgents/taleban pretty much used whatever they could get their hands on - I've never encountered the dual AT warhead though, only the standard AT round (Only round I saw in Iraq) and the "infantry" round (I honestly don't remember the names for these rounds) capable of air-burst.

It would take a direct hit to kill someone with an AT round - just like the standard M136 AT-4 is useless against personel, so is the russian equivalent. Funny thing though is that both the Iraqi army and ANA (Afghan National Army) seem to like guarding prisoners with their RPG's - It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen :)

One thing the taleban was rather fond of using in our AO was their "almighty" B-10 Recoilles rifle which they talked alot about over I-COM (The taleban use motorola 2-way radios to communicate) and loved to bring out when the battle was raging.

I remember one firefight where we were being shot at from several directions. I was down in a small ditch with the rest of 1 Section (I was in fire-support team, light machinegunner) and I duck down to reload my weapon, when I just happened to look over to the left the taleban fired the B-10 and hit right beside the guy on the far left - he was completely gone from all the smoke and debris, and anyone who saw it thought he'd been blown to pieces!

When the dust started to lay off a bit he came running out of the big debris cloud at full speed under enemy fire, trying to get to cover behind us - he was only slightly injured in the left arm and continued his tour of duty - talk about being lucky! :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-10_recoilless_rifle

Edited October 10, 2009 by Schurer

[mr_centipede 31]

People usually more afraid of a big boom instead of a big bang bang. so that generally a psychology thing I guess. the guarding a prisoner with an RPG part

[Schurer 0]

Mr Centipede: I do believe that it's a part of their mentality "down/over there" - the man with the biggest gun reigns supreme, it doesn't matter if it's suited for the task, their ideology is "the bigger the better".

I do recall several Iraqi kids referring to me as "Rambo" and "Mujahideen" because of my role as light machinegunner I would carry the German MG3 and I'm about 6'6" (197cm) tall and (used to) weigh 231 lbs (105 kg) :-D

Edited October 10, 2009 by Schurer

[manberries 0]

First off, RPG does not stand for Rocket Propelled Grenade. It is an acronym for a long Russian phrase that translates to hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher. Secondly, the term grenade launcher is a bit of a misnomer because the panzerfaust was also considered a grenade launcher, yet had no use beyond anti tank purposes. The reason the are called "grenades" is because they receive an initial burst but only a limited in flight propulsion (if any at all depending on the weapon). Missiles/Rockets generally have a constant thrust until they run out of fuel, leading to a slower tank off, but longer range. In reality, there are no set rules for what is called what, but for all intents and purposes the RPG fires a rocket.

As for its design, the RPG-7 (the one seen so much throughout the world) was never intended to be an anti-infantry weapon. It is by a total fluke that the RPG has some small capability against infantry. The shape charge is seen everywhere because the other warheads for the RPG-7 are much more rare, were not invented till much later than the first RPG-7, and Russia still has not sold a great deal of the other types of warheads. The two warheads invented for the RPG-7 that were designed to be used against infantry are the OG-7v and the TBG-7v. The OG-7v is a 40mm small rod designed to produce shrapnel on impact (it is mostly useless for killing infantry or light vehicles, hence it is not seen in Russian or insurgent hands). The TBG-7v is a thermobaric round designed to create massive over-pressure (useful for attack infantry within buildings, but still rare to see in anyone's hands.). Finally, the PG-7vr is the 105mm tandem heat round. It has massive amounts of RHA penetration (near equal to direct shot Javelin RHA of 700mm while this round achieves 600mm). Due to this round being so potent, and quite a bit more expensive, Russia has exported very few of these. An insurgent is generally too inaccurate with the RPG-7(v possibly) to warrant using a significantly more expensive round, even if it is far more likely to penetrate a Stryker.

As for why these various groups love this weapon so much, who knows. The Russians only see it effective against infantry if there are in some kind of hard defense (house, sandbags, etc). Beyond the fear factor, it is mostly a waste of time to use it on infantry only targets.

Edited October 10, 2009 by manberries

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Okay, thanks. Great answers that will prove helpful in mission design.

[maturin 12]

It would take a direct hit to kill someone with an AT round - just like the standard M136 AT-4 is useless against personel, so is the russian equivalent.

How effective is the PG-7VL against infantry? Is it also a purely AT round?

[HyperU2 11]

The OG-7v is a 40mm small rod designed to produce shrapnel on impact (it is mostly useless for killing infantry or light vehicles, hence it is not seen in Russian or insurgent hands).

I've seen them around quite a lot actually.

[maturin 12]

They're pretty scary in Arma II. I wiped out all but one member of a NAPA squad in a loose wedge formation with one.

[galzohar 31]

In the IDF it's mostly the PV7V and PG7VL. They teach you about wall-breaching rounds that are designed to kill people inside the room, but I've never actually seen them. In any case, IDF's RPG ammo is produced in Israel. As for arabs, it's whatever they could get their hands on, which is usually the cheaper/older stuff, not sure exactly what types.

[Terracide 10]

In the IDF it's mostly the PV7V and PG7VL. They teach you about wall-breaching rounds that are designed to kill people inside the room, but I've never actually seen them. In any case, IDF's RPG ammo is produced in Israel. As for arabs, it's whatever they could get their hands on, which is usually the cheaper/older stuff, not sure exactly what types.

Brisant is fun :D

Used to have this puppy along in former-Yugoslavia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle

HE, HEDP, Starburst, HEAT, Smoke.

Only downside, with the M/79, gear ect, you could only (within reason) run along with 2 shells....but good for nasty punch or light/cover