Aircraft feel slow?

[Relemar 10]

Why do aircraft feel so slow and sluggish? They seem like slugs to me, why so slow?

[Fudgeblood 10]

Push your nose down and increase the thrust, I actually find most of the aircrafts too fast.

[Laqueesha 474]

Agreed.

For example, in-game, the F-35's top speed is around 600 kph or 400 mph, more or less.

[Alex72 1]

They were made slower i think in the last patch. The harrier and the JSF felt pretty equal up to now where the harrier feels a lot slower. The JSF is also slower and loose a lot of momentum during loops and hard turns. The JSF should do 1000kts if pushed long ehough. 900 should be aquired fairly easy.

Not sure how it is now with top speed. Will test some more. But they do feel slower now.

[thaFunkster 0]

If you are talking about choppers feeling slow, I totally agree.

Fixed wing aircraft, definitely not. There is no time to line up a target in an SU25, unless you have the veiw distance set way out, which I cant do on my system.

[tractorking 10]

Sry. Double posted see below.

Edited September 21, 2009 by tractorking

[Alex72 1]

^^ What the hell?

Couldnt just write out the speeds?

[maturin 12]

Aircraft are designed to operate low and slow in Arma. It's rather jarring to see C-130s flying at treetop height.

[tractorking 10]

I posted a good explaination of lift and load factor here:

To scratch the surface....Lift is always pointing out of the top of the wing, when you bank you change the lift vector from straight up to say 30-45 dgrees using some of that lift to pull you sideways in through the turn. SInce your using some of that lift to turn the nose will drop and the aircraft starts to decend. At this point you apply back pressure on the controls (pitch nose up) but when you do that the combination of forces cause the plane to be heavier (load factor) and you are inducing more drag with the higher angle of attack(AoA) required to maintain altitude. If you do not add power the drag will slow you to a stall and possibly a spin condition, you must add power in the turn to maintain a safe flying airspeed.

Example: the F35 max gross takeoff wieght is 70,000lbs and the max positive G loading is 9G's

If you are standing still on the ground you are in a 1G environment. When the aircraft banks hard at full speed the load factor..or G's....increase, The JSF is designed to withstand 9G's and so 70,000lbsx9G's= 630,000lbs of load factor or weight that the wings have to carry. We need air over the wing to develop that lift and thats where forward thrust comes in but dont forget about the huge drag being induced at the time of the turn.

This is why aircraft lose speed and altitude in a turn, its just heavier overall.

Specifications (F-35 Lightning II)

General characteristics

Crew: 1

Length: A: 51.4 ft, B: 51.3 ft, C: 51.5 ft (A: 15.67 m, B: 15.6 m, C: 15.7 m)

Wingspan: A/B: 35 ft, C: 43 ft (A/B: 10.7 m, C: 13.1 m)

Height: A/B: 14.2 ft, C: 14.9 ft (A/B: 4.33 m, C: 4.54 m)

Wing area: A/B: 460 ft², C: 668 ft²[51] (A/B: 42.7 m², C: 62.1 m²)

Empty weight: A: 29,300 lb, B: 32,000 lb, C: 34,800 lb (A: 13,300 kg, B: 14,500 kg, C: 15,800 kg)

Loaded weight: 44,400 lb (20,100 kg)

Max takeoff weight: A/C: 70,000 lb, B: 60,000 lb (A/C: 31,800 kg, B: 27,200 kg)

Powerplant: 1× Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan

Dry thrust: 25,000 lbf[47] (111 kN)

Thrust with afterburner: 42,000 lbf[183] (178+ kN)

Lift fan (STOVL): 1× Rolls-Royce LiftSystem driven from main power plant, 18,000 lbf (80 kN)

Internal fuel: F-35A: 18,480 lb (8,382 kg); F-35B: 14,003 lb (6,352 kg); F-35C: 20,085 lb (9,110 kg)

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.67[183] (1,283 mph, 2,065 km/h)

Range: A: 1,200 nmi; B: 900 nmi; C: 1,400 nmi (A: 2,220 km; B: 1,670 km; C: 2,520 km) on internal fuel[184]

Combat radius: A: 610 nmi; B: 500 nmi; C: 640 nmi (A: 1,110 km; B: 910 km; C: 1,150 km) on internal fuel[184]

Service ceiling: A/B/C: 60,000 ft[185] (18,288 m)

Rate of climb: classified (not publicly available)

Wing loading: 91.4 lb/ft² (446 kg/m²)

Thrust/weight:

With full fuel: A: 0.84; B: 0.86; C: 0.77[51]

With 50% fuel: A: 1.04; B: 1.02; C: 0.95[51]

g-Limits: F-35A: 9 g, F-35B: 7.5 g, F-35C: 7.5 g

Armament

Guns: 1 × GAU-22/A 25 mm (0.984 in) cannon – slated to be mounted internally with 180 rounds in the F-35A and fitted as an external pod with 220 rounds in the F-35B and F-35C.[47]

Hardpoints: 6× external pylons on wings with a capacity of 15,000 lb (6,800 kg)[47][51] and 2× internal bays with 2 pylons each[51] (Total weapons payload of 18,000 lb on A and C models.)[186],

Missiles:

Internal: 4 air-to-air missiles, or 2 air-to-air missiles and 2 air-to-ground weapons.

External: 6 air-to-air missiles, or 4 air-to-ground weapons and 2 air-to-air missiles[55] with combinations for the following missiles:

Air-to-air missiles:

AIM-120 AMRAAM

AIM-132 ASRAAM

AIM-9X Sidewinder

Air-to-ground weapons:

AGM-154 JSOW

AGM-158 JASSM

Bombs:

Mark 84 general purpose bombs

Mark 83 GP bombs

Mark 82 GP bombs

Mk.20 Rockeye II cluster bomb

Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser capable

Paveway-series laser-guided bombs

Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) (Quad launcher counts as a single air-to-ground weapon above.)

JDAM-series

---------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

AV-8B Harrier

Specifications

Accommodations: AV-8B DA/NA/Radar Aircraft: Pilot only

TAV-8B Trainer: Two seats

Performance: Maximum airspeed: 550 KCAS

Range greater than 142 nautical miles high speed/low altitude combat radius

Maximum range: 900 nautical miles

Countermeasures: Not applicable

Armament: One fuselage-mounted 25 mm gun system

Standard Air-to-Ground (A/G) load: Six Mk 82, 500 pound bombs

Standard Air-to-Air (A/A) load: Four AIM-9L/M Sidewinder missiles

Provisions for carrying up to 9,000 pounds of ordnance on seven stations

Mission and Capabilities: The AV-8B single seat Vertical/Short Takeoff and Land (V/STOL) aircraft is the primary close air support/intermediate range intercept/attack mission fixed-wing aircraft for the USMC and the Spanish and Italian navies.

The AV-8B can carry and deliver an assortment of conventional stores such as the Mk 83 1,000 pound GP bomb, GBU-12 500 pound LGB, GBU-16 1,000 LGB, CBU-99/100 Cluster Bomb Units, and 2.75" and 5" rockets.

The NA configuration includes: night vision goggle-compatible cockpit controls and displays, a wide-field-of-view HUD, a Navigation Forward Looking Infrared (NAVFLIR) system, a Digital Map Unit (DMU), and an Angle Rate Bombing System (ARBS) with laser spot tracker, which provides first pass day or night target strike capability at low altitude/high speed.

The Radar aircraft retains all night attack capability but integrates the AN/APG-65 radar system to extend the tracking capabilities of the aircraft for A/G delivery and A/A defense modes.

V/STOL capability allows the AV-8B to be deployed with ground units using amphibious shipping and/or forward basing for rapid close air support response.

Program Summary: All three variants of the AV-8B are in service with the USMC (deployed in WestPac and the Mediterranean).

The Spanish Navy has DA/Radar AV-8Bs.

The Italian Navy has Radar AV-8Bs only.

The U.S., Italy, and Spain are partners in a collaborative international program.

The original DA AV-8B was replaced by the NA variant in 1990, which incorporated the F402-RR-408A engine and expanded night fighting systems such as NAVFLIR, DMU, night vision goggle capability, and wide-field-of-view HUD.

In 1993, the Radar AV-8B was fielded with the full night fighting capability and an AN/APG-65 Radar set to improve A/G and A/A tactical effectiveness.

In 1994, the U.S. began a remanufacturing process to convert DA AV-8Bs to the Radar configuration (REMAN); deliveries began in 1996.

Currently, a NA/Radar AV-8B upgrade program is underway to incorporate an Automatic Target Handoff System (ATHS) and Global Positioning System (GPS) capability into the aircraft.

ATHS allows direct digital target/mission data exchange between the pilot and ground units. GPS integration improves navigational and weapons delivery accuracy.

The AV-8B has seen service in the Persian Gulf (Desert Storm), Somalia (both U.S. and Italian AV-8Bs), and Bosnia (peacekeeping operations).

A total of 51 Radar Aircraft are authorized for procurement by the U.S., Italy, and Spain.

The U.S. has a planned procurement/delivery program for 73 REMAN AV-8Bs (FY 1996 - 2002).

External Dimensions:

Wing Span 9.25 m

Length overall (flying attitude)

AV-8B 14.12 m

TAV-8B 15.32 m

GR. Mks 5/7 14.36 m

T. Mk 10 15.79 m

Height overall 3.55 m

Tailplane span 4.24 m

Outrigger wheel track 5.18 m

Areas

Wings, excl LERX, gross 21.37 m2

LERX (total): Pegasus 11-21 0.81 m2

Pegasus 11-61 1.24 m2

100 percent 1.39 m2

Ailerons (total) 1.15 m2

Trailing-edge flaps (total) 2.88 m2

Ventral fixed strakes (total) 0.51 m2

Ventral retractable fence (LIDs) 0.24 m2

Ventral airbrake 0.42 m2

Fin 2.47 m2

Rudder, excl tab 0.49 m2

Tailplane 4.51 m2

Weights and Loadings (Single-Seaters, Except Where Indicated)

Operating weight empty (including pilot and used fuel)

AV-8B 6,336 kg

GR. Mk 7 7,050 kg

TAV-8B 6,451kg

Maximum fuel

Internal only 3,519 kg

Internal and external 7,180 kg

Maximum external stores

Pegasus 11-61 6,003 kg

Pegasus 11-21/Mk 105* 4,899 kg

Maximum useful load (include fuel, stores, weapons, ammunition and water injection for engine)

Vertical takeoff Approximately 3,062, kg

STO More than 7,710 kg

Basic flight design gross weight for 7g operation 10,410 kg

Maximum T-O weight

435 meters STO 14,061 kg

S/L VTO, ISA:

AV-8B/Pegasus 11-61 9,342 kg

GR. Mk 7 8,700 kg

S/L VTO, 32°C 8,142 kg

Design maximum landing weight 11,340 kg

Maximum vertical landing weight 9,043 kg 205 kg less in TAV-8B

Performance

Maximum mach number in level flight

At S/L 875 knots

At altitude 0.98

STOL takeoff run at maximum takeoff weight:

ISA 435 m

At 32° c 518 m

Operational radius with external loads shown:

Short takeoff (366 m, 12 Mk 82 Snakeye Bombs, internal fuel, 1 hour loiter) 90 nautical miles

Hi-lo-hi, short take off (366 m, seven Mk 82 Snakeye Bombs, two 300 US gallon external fuel tanks no loiter 594 nautical miles

Deck launch intercept mission,

two AIM-9 missiles and two external fuel tanks 627 nautical miles

Unrefueled ferry range

Tanks dropped 1,965 nautical miles

Tanks retained 1,638 nautical miles

Combat air patrol endurance at 100 nautical miles from base. 3 hr.

"G" force limits +8/-3

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

[/color]Type: Su-17

Function: attack

Year: 1969

Crew: 1

Engines: 1 * 9600kg Lyulka AL-7F-1-250

Wing Span: 13.66 m to 9.64 m

Length: 16.42 m

Height: 4.96 m

Wing Area:

Empty Weight: 10090 kg

Max.Weight: 16950 kg

Speed: 2150 km/h

Ceiling: 16300 m

Range: 1450 km

Armament: 2*g30 mm (80rpg), 3000 kg

---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

^^ What the hell?

Couldnt just write out the speeds?

Theres more to it than just speed! But I also see alot of performance questions in the forums so I figure this will be availible data in the future to compare.

"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach them how to fish and they eat forever!"

But oh yeah, Im a flight instructor so I am a little more detailed when thinking about this stuff.

Edited September 21, 2009 by tractorking

[desertjedi 3]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think the OP is referring to the perception of speed in the aircraft. To me, there is very little "feel" that you're flying fast. For me, the worst offender is the A-10 which feels like the aircraft is "drunk" when flying it. Of course, if someone was looking up at you from the ground, it would be a very different perception.

[tractorking 10]

I run a flight simulator department and have this encounter with gamers alot.

When gamers fly on a simulator they feel no sense of speed because you are high and do not have object rushing by.

Also the majority of flying games out there do not really simulate flying and are more gamelike and therefore have that sensation of speed but in general flying airplanes is a tame mundane and routine affair.

If you throttle up and scud run a valley at low level you will get that sense of speed as objects wiz by.

And the A10 is slow and sluggish, its a tank with wings, its not meant to perform at all.

Its designed to fly air support low level, slow and withstand a hell of alot of bullets and damage.

Its a slow heavy armored up plane! You cant hit stationary ground targets if your doing Mach 2.0

Its like comparing the performance of the M1 Abrahms to a Porsche.

Also, how big is the map. If you are doing 60kt you are moving 1 mile a minute. If you were to fly these aircraft at the real world numbers say 600kts you are moving 10mi a minute or about 18km per min.

Edited September 21, 2009 by tractorking

[wildone_106 10]

The jets speed is fine for this game, you can go into a dive from high up and be past the battle in a few seconds, given the draw distances in this game its already hard to see whats coming until the last second when things pop up!

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

You need to try DSCs Black Shark..that will give you a run for your money.

I run a flight simulator department and have this encounter with gamers alot.

When gamers fly on a simulator they feel no sense of speed because you are high and do not have object rushing by.

Also the majority of flying games out there do not really simulate flying and are more gamelike and therefore have that sensation of speed but in general flying airplanes is a tame mundane and routine affair.

If you throttle up and scud run a valley at low level you will get that sense of speed as objects wiz by.