Just a question: Why no "class restrictions"?

[binkster 0]

@Crni-Vuk I dont think you are understanding BIS games. OFP was one of the only games of its time to give such freedom of playing the game. This is what has made this game as good as it is today.

For Example when the first time I played OFP I played the Sniper SP mission. I shot the driver of the truck that had many soldiers in the back. I was able to kill all of them and I saw a bmp coming my way and was able to pickup a RPG from a dead soldier and I killed the bmp.

Durring this time there was no other game like it. I was like wow the FREEDOM.

You need to join a Squad/Clan to get the "restrictions" that you are wanting. Ive been in many squads and some are hard core and some are laid back.

If you dont like what is on the servers now then I suggest Renting a server and make your own missions/mods to play. Then you could attract more people like yourself and even make your own squad/clan.

[NeMeSiS 11]

A 'force restriction' game module should make everyone happy. Off by default, piece of cake to enable it. But for it to be widely used it should be done by BI. :/

Though i do think that everyone should be able to use every gun. How hard is it to pull a trigger? Maybe it should have some accuracy penalties for weaponclasses your character isnt trained for.

[Crni-Vuk 10]

And there are many developers who will disagree with you there.

Look I mean it that way:

The Game - Red orchestra - comes of by default with a "map editor" that allows you with a wide range of options to create maps. That is NOT a modification (in my eyes!)

Now on the other side there have been people that used a BA-64 armored car and striped a IS2 heavy tank turret on it (a design that so far never existed :eek: !) and placed it in some costum map next to "flying" armored vehicles (all just for fun). THIS would be something I would call a "modification" of some sort.

But we should let that go since it seems we are going slowly in to a discussion of semantics ...

No such restriction exists...? Mission makers can mix and match any weapons/equipment they want.... and that's good.

Ive not seen so far an M1Tusk with a KORD 12,7mm on its deck or a Mi-8 with Maverick rockets. If yes, then I appolgize and say, its even worse then I have thought to be so far. Thats what I meant with restrictions. From what I can see you have definetly certain restrictions when it comes to equipment for the sake of realism cause its just completely illogical to have Russian equipment interchange with US one (for no reason of course. Situations where a real interchange would be possible which are only a few things mainly mofidications by former east block states which allow a work together with today NATO equipment are a different story and I think so far not in Arma II present. For Example: The G36 can use "some" modified AK-74 bayonets by default cause after the GDR went down the German army got their hands on a lot of AK bayonets from the NVA inventory.).

However as explained, the game has been out for only 3 months as of the German release, and even less than that for several others who have the game. There will be more missions in time, you might even want to take the advice from those in this thread and make you're own mission if you feel like doing so, as missions and addons are practically the backbone of this game's replayability.

I have a bit doubts that at least when it comes to player numbers a lot will change in the future.

From what I can see so far, most of the games are "Capture Zelenogorks/Berenzino/Pruska etc." missions in Koop without restrictions and "attack Zelenogorks/Radio" missions in PvP. Games usualy tend to at some point focus on a few key scenarios and maps the longer they go (on public gaming anyway). At the moment that kind of gamestyle is "still" fun. But I just fear that i my case it might loose its interest and appeal fast. For said reasons.

...

For Example when the first time I played OFP I played the Sniper SP mission. I shot the driver of the truck that had many soldiers in the back. I was able to kill all of them and I saw a bmp coming my way and was able to pickup a RPG from a dead soldier and I killed the bmp.

Durring this time there was no other game like it. I was like wow the FREEDOM.

...

Please! Read the posts more carefully OR get familar with the whole thread before just jumping in to the discussion! (no offense meant though).

At no point did I complained about people use equipment on the ground or something they found. I am glad that you could do that in your mission and thats how it should be.

What I find just strange is the fact to start as Medic/Sniper/Engineer/crewman with anti aircraft weapons and/or anti tank weapons almost as default by the fact that its offered in ammo crates.

And this is something that affecst both Coop AND PvP missions equaliy.

[kylania 567]

From what I can see you have definetly certain restrictions when it comes to equipment for the sake of realism cause its just completely illogical to have Russian equipment interchange with US one (for no reason of course. Situations where a real interchange would be possible which are only a few things mainly mofidications by former east block states which allow a work together with today NATO equipment are a different story and I think so far not in Arma II present. For Example: The G36 can use "some" modified AK-74 bayonets by default cause after the GDR went down the German army got their hands on a lot of AK bayonets from the NVA inventory.).

US Forces training on Russian Weapon Systems

From what I can understand from your posts though is you think we should cripple the game because you don't want to see Russian VEHICLE weapons on US VEHICLES? That's a bit absurd to be honest, but whatever. Hard coding in limits to the game to combat that (which has never actually happened has it?) just doesn't make sense. As the link shows, even in "realism" both sides can use the equipment of the other.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm pretty sure you're not really grasping the ArmA 2 system fully.

[jakerod 254]

What I find just strange is the fact to start as Medic/Sniper/Engineer/crewman with anti aircraft weapons and/or anti tank weapons almost as default by the fact that its offered in ammo crates.

And this is something that affecst both Coop AND PvP missions equaliy.

Once again, it depends on what missions you play. If they were to limit this then that would drastically reduce the kinds of things that the game is capable of. However, if that is what the mission maker wants, then that is what the mission maker will do.

[Steakslim 1]

I have a bit doubts that at least when it comes to player numbers a lot will change in the future.

From what I can see so far, most of the games are "Capture Zelenogorks/Berenzino/Pruska etc." missions in Koop without restrictions and "attack Zelenogorks/Radio" missions in PvP. Games usualy tend to at some point focus on a few key scenarios and maps the longer they go (on public gaming anyway). At the moment that kind of gamestyle is "still" fun. But I just fear that i my case it might loose its interest and appeal fast. For said reasons.

I mentioned nothing of player numbers in both of my posts, I do not know where you are reading that would suggest to you that I'm saying it would have an effect on newer missions appearing (though technically it would but it was not the point i'm trying to make). I'm simply saying that the game hasn't been out for that long, and thus the amount of usermade content that we'll see in the next few months has barely to begin to show up. There are currently a load of addon's and mods in developement. In time you'll see more and more variety of missions.

[binkster 0]

Please! Read the posts more carefully OR get familar with the whole thread before just jumping in to the discussion! (no offense meant though).

At no point did I complained about people use equipment on the ground or something they found. I am glad that you could do that in your mission and thats how it should be.

What I find just strange is the fact to start as Medic/Sniper/Engineer/crewman with anti aircraft weapons and/or anti tank weapons almost as default by the fact that its offered in ammo crates.

And this is something that affecst both Coop AND PvP missions equaliy.

Ok im sorry I was just giving one example and I did read all post. Basically reread my post that explains what you are wanting is something that can be found in HardCore Squads/Clans. Or make one yourself.

I was trying to give you an example of why ArmA2 is what it is. I cant really understand why you cant just accept the fact that this game was made to be OPEN to all posibilities rather than having "Restrictions". The example I gave was basically saying there is much FREEDOM in this game and thats what made it the way it is today.

Seems this arguing is pointless. The Cons outweigh the pros of having restrictions by 10 to 1.

I have played many missions where you can choose which slot you want. Either AT/MG/Sniper/Medic. You also start with these weapons. We have had much fun playing like that but that was in a Squad. We actually had a mod running that would block who killed who and other non realistic stuff. Now public servers do not play like this. Most are kids who run around like rambo playing unrealistic respawn missions.

The most fun I have ever had was playing a non respawn mission where when you were dead you were dead and you had to wait untill next mission.

What I find just strange is the fact to start as Medic/Sniper/Engineer/crewman with anti aircraft weapons and/or anti tank weapons almost as default by the fact that its offered in ammo crates

Again the mission maker can put a few simple lines in the init field of the ammo crates and change whats inside the crate. Or a bunch more code can be written and the mission maker can just exclude certain weapons to certain soldiers.

Again this is all up to the mission maker

Edited August 20, 2009 by binkster

[whisper 0]

What I find just strange is the fact to start as Medic/Sniper/Engineer/crewman with anti aircraft weapons and/or anti tank weapons almost as default by the fact that its offered in ammo crates.

And this is something that affecst both Coop AND PvP missions equaliy.

I don't understand why you blame BI (the developpers) for something done wrong (in your eyes) by mission makers.

You don't like seeing crates? Edit the mission, remove then, voila.

All the tools already exist to have the restrictions you want, it's just that mission makers do not make use of that and instead prefer to leave crates, etc...

Basically, you're complaining to BI about a non-issue, you should probably go seek the mission maker instead, or modify the mission yourself, and seek the server admin for proposal

[Big Dawg KS 6]

It's been said a million times, there's no need to keep repeating it. He simply wishes to ignore the fact that it can already be done. Arguing isn't going to lead anywhere productive.

[whisper 0]

Maybe he has a point in the fact that any "class" can take any weapon, but even that could be restricted by script

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If you do not like how missions are produced, create your own, its THAT simple.

Trust me, it is not that simple. Mission making for multiplayer is not something you learn overnight. Or overyear for that matter.

---

Back to the question at hand. I think it is a bit of a dilemma for the mission maker. Consider these:

1) Is it ment for a nice group of friends, all communicating? Although TG have/had some Domination games running, they're most famous for running more serious missions. Shorter missions in hardcore mode with hefty restrictions and no respawn.

2) Is it ment for public gameplay, where everyone are strangers and noone dares to lead? Endless dynamic games are perfect for this type. These kinds of players usually don't like being restricted.

3) Is it ment for a large crowd or a small crowd? There is less considerations when making a mission for a small crowd, obviously. For a large crowd, you need hardware to make the mission fun and have that element of combined warfare.

4) If large, what will happen when the crowd grows thin? Try doing a Domination main target (or even side mission) solo, and you'll see what I mean. You do need AT, and lots of it.

I'm all in for restricting access to small arms, launchers, and other hardware. At the same time, I wouldn't want a mission to become intolerable just because it happens to populate only a few players. Personally I would allow one shot launchers for anyone, and multishot and heavy launchers for specialists only, as they would require training not likely to everyone.

But if the "main attractions" in the mission (main objectives) are not scaled to suit a low playercount (coop mode), I would like the mission to utilize SOM like random generated "objectives" just to help pass the time. Things to do without every man having to be an untrained assaultman (SMAW). An AT weapon could be an asset, but it shouldn't have to be a necessity.

For this, I think the best way to go is a "mission system" (same as Domination, Warfare, Evolution) that describes a set of "kit restrictions" similar to BF2 PR. But a mod? Absolutely not. Since a mod would require people to download it instead of being part of the mission. I (among many others) tend to skip missions that require a mod.

And, by "kit restrictions" I don't need restricted by class. I tried this, but didn't really work out. I mean let the players be able to choose a kit, but maybe only a limited number of certain kits or kit combinations are available at any given time. Maybe depending on the current playercount or something?

Another "deterrent" against Rambo players is an in mission modification to the respawn system. You have to make dying painful, but not intolerant. Personally I'm a big fan of Domination (due to it's dynamic behaviour and endless games), but it's instant respawn system is not good as it attracts people who couldn't care less about getting killed. My idea to fix this goes about a varying "enprisonment timer" after each respawn. If you die a lot, timer increases. If you stay alive for a long time, you are rewarded with shorter respawn. All within limits naturally. Off course, other parts of this particular mission would have to be rebalanced for this as well (not that much of a hardware or tank fest).

Oh, and Domination has a neat little switch in there that does restrict weapons. Unfortunately nobody afaik has ever touched this. Domination has the best admin/editor friendly system I've ever seen, tons and tons and tons of options - for the most part left untouched. I agree, I'm getting sick not getting a medic because he is currently flying a Cobra or "sniping" with his belowed M107 like all the 10 other players. Freedom has it's cost. But I wouldn't live without it, or bind it to a mod.

Unfortunately, since I'm not that good at scripting and mission making, I have no clue where even to begin.

Rhodite, since it is THAT simple, maybe you'd care to have a go? ;)

Edited August 20, 2009 by CarlGustaffa

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Trust me, it is not that simple. Mission making for multiplayer is not something you learn overnight. Or overyear for that matter.

Been hanging around the ArmA 2 Mission Editing & Scripting subforum? Lots of newbies there are picking it up quite quickly...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

How many dynamical game modes, which I was describing? I still only know about the Evolution (been a long time, but isn't that a fixed sequence?), and Domination (a bit too hardware oriented to my personal taste) game modes for the coop genre.

Warfare modes (too buggy, and not my style) are PvP (but can be played in coop mode if you want to if winning isn't the goal). So is the one mentioned above here. And so is the one Sickboy (iirc) made. None of which apply to me :)

Check Domination scripts and it becomes obvious why these sorts of things is a huge undertaking. Quite different from a simple mission with a couple of objectives using editor placed units.

So, we have two game modes for coop that doesn't utilize restrictions in a good fashion. And we have three or so game modes for PvP, that may have restrictions in a good fashion, I don't know. What I'm looking for/hoping for, eventually, is a good system for those who prefer coop.

I have to agree with OP that some/most/all if these modes are a bit too free, at least by default. I just cannot see how a USMC Corpseman can drive around in a T90 or fly a Hokum. A UAZ, fine. Domination holds switches for these realism thingies as well, again, mostly unused. You can't really blame Arma2 or BIS. In some cases, you can't really blame the mission designer (the switches are there for everyone to use, although I don't always agree on the defaults, but that's just me). In cases like this, you actually have to blame those not modding a fully moddable mission :)

However, some parts of Arma1/Arma2 actually does seem to imply some kinds of class and weapons restrictions. I.e. medics and officers (Arma2) have a limited number of slots. Picking up a heavy weapon removes the ability to carry launchers etc. Then ACE came along (which I loved btw), actually removing these restrictions. A flying medic could now carry an M107 pluss a Javelin. Would weight like hell, but many didn't take too much notice. God damn what an uber soldier! Considering a medic is in Arma2 an active class instead of a passive class (he has to heal you, you can't heal at him), who want's to be a medic in Arma2/ACE2? Everyone. Nothing but the positives. ACE despite all it's good sides to serious players, caused the already overly free missions (like Domination) to become just a mayhem of tank killing do-it-alls.

Sorry, guess I'm just frustrated about how Arma2 is played, especially on public servers. I/we are fully capable to restrict myself/ourselves. But we only play once a week. Meaning I have to spend six days on public servers where infantry work is a really dying thing.

Ok, rant off. Calmed down. I feel much better now, I really do :D :D

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Sorry, guess I'm just frustrated about how Arma2 is played, especially on public servers.

That's why I don't play MP. Hell, I rarely even leave the editor... but that's what ArmA 2 is to me... a sandbox. Just one more reason why hardcoded restrictions would destroy it for me (and many others).

[Crni-Vuk 10]

It's been said a million times, there's no need to keep repeating it. He simply wishes to ignore the fact that it can already be done. Arguing isn't going to lead anywhere productive.

I am NOT ignoring your or anyones point. But I cant help either if people (I dont mean anyone directly now) tends to ~eventualy overead my posts, which I agree can be confusing and pretty lengthy at times. But thats how I usualy writte cause I have the need to explain my position as detailed as possible (its a language barrier, english is not my native language).

Point is. I know that you can indeed "use" restrictions with the editor. So if one would really want it he could make missions with absolute realistic restrictions regarding classes and their equipment.

(*Thing is they just dont exist OR are not public/enjoyable enough yet. And by thinking about the replies here I somewhat have the doubt it will change drasticaly in the future. But thats just my impression)

But what I find strange is why almost no where any of such missions get played or made. Particularly in a COOP style of gameplay where every game I seen so far was with A ) no restrictions at all and B ) almost always the same kind of mission (capture Town A.B.C etc. in random order with a few random side missions). And this kind of gamestyle become very fast, very easy and very repetitive. Particualrly cause you have no restrictions from a realistic point of view.

I am not "blaming" Bohemia, the Mission makers or anyone. Hell I would do it probably the same way (from yours and their point of view) and work out things that most people like to play. I just was curious if the vibe in this community is in the same dirction (which seems likely) and loves this kind of gamestyle in general which leaves me with the impression that many like to play a "one role can do *almost* all" situation on the field.

Your position as mission maker is a entirely different one compared to mine as "pure realism/simulation" gamer. You enjoy the freedom from a point of creativity (I as artist would not like either if someome would tell me that I am forced to use only ONE part of tool and colour for example so I can definetly relate your point). But you mentioned that you almost never play MP, and use most of your time playing with the editor. So I hope that you see what I mean when I say we are both ~somewhat biased but everyone in a different direction.

So, we have two game modes for coop that doesn't utilize restrictions in a good fashion. And we have three or so game modes for PvP, that may have restrictions in a good fashion, I don't know. What I'm looking for/hoping for, eventually, is a good system for those who prefer coop.

Exactly one of the points I talk about. I mean I definetly would be a lot less thinking about it if the diversty regarding it would be a lot higher and the player numbers supporting it. But for NOW it seems to me at least that almost all games coop and PvP together consist of 2-3 modes which have almost all infantry runing around with weapon systems they from a realistic point of view would have no access to (again what you pick up at the battlefield is a different story and completely O.K! Thing is that you dont have the NEED to pick anything up cause, simply you have a similar weaponsystem already in your inventory ...)

One piont is that if it really proves to be the most popular game style that will dominate the future then I really proabably went in to this game with absolutely false expectations and it might be nothing for my taste not in long term at least. Which makes neither me right or Bohemia/Mission makers wrong. It is how it is. Just a difference of oppinions and targets.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Crni-Vuk

[whisper 0]

Point is. I know that you can indeed "use" restrictions with the editor. So if one would really want it he could make missions with absolute realistic restrictions regarding classes and their equipment.

(*Thing is they just dont exist OR are not public/enjoyable enough yet. And by thinking about the replies here I somewhat have the doubt it will change drasticaly in the future. But thats just my impression)

Not to blow my own trumpet too much, but :

http://dev-heaven.net/wiki/whis-maas

I try to at least have some restriction about what a certain class type can do. And access to equipement is limited (by default now, I remove weapons from dead corpses). Mission is on dev atm, but I'm looking forward to any help, comment and suggestions.

I'ts rather difficult to know if this is somewhat what you seek or not. This game is that broad in scope that pretty much anything CAN BE done, but IS NOT done by default, resulting in much frustration