Reflector sights?

[Maximus_G 0]

Can we have proper collimating sights in the game? They shouldn't act like that, really.

Kinda sad to see that in a milsim game. Besides, the virtual crosshair in Arma more closely resembles the real relector sight behavior (being projected to infinity). So, the technology IS there.

The question is - is it planned to be implemented? Or are we gonna stick to this fixed texture, hoping for a user-made addon?

[Maximus_G 0]

^Up. Let me put here the proper collimating sight behavior example:

[Lhowon 10]

I remember a dev post saying they experimented with this and found it created graphical glitches or something like that.

So if I'm remembering correctly it is a technology issue, just a graphical one. Probably something about how the engine renders scopes makes it hard/impossible to do.

[thaFunkster 0]

Can we have proper collimating sights in the game? They shouldn't act like that, really.

Kinda sad to see that in a milsim game. Besides, the virtual crosshair in Arma more closely resembles the real relector sight behavior (being projected to infinity). So, the technology IS there.

The question is - is it planned to be implemented? Or are we gonna stick to this fixed texture, hoping for a user-made addon?

Can you insert a youtube link please, that file format is annoying.

Cheers mate.

[Maximus_G 0]

Hmm, *.MP4 is the progressive ISO/IEC standard. You can watch it with Media Player Classic Home Cinema (it does not spoil your codec preferences, uses its own).

Basically that video shows the ordinary reflector sight behavior in the game. It's quite the opposite to the real one - fixed crosshair versus moving one.

Arma does model the realistic unwanted floating gun movement in hands, relative to the eye. It produces a certain angular alignment error, so if you try to aim using that crosshair, you generally make a pronounced miss even at ~100 meters, especially right after running, and even holding your breath does not eliminate the error completely. But that's the exact situation collimating sight was designed for... its maximum error is much smaller, having the linear size of scope's reflector glass (a bit of geometry here).

We can't take these sights away in the game (to use the iron sights), so i find some weapons hardly usable in Arma. Maybe some different aiming technique will help, involving looking at the front part of the iron sight to estimate the error, but that's definitely unrealistic and simply not comfortable.

I remember a dev post saying they experimented with this and found it created graphical glitches or something like that.

So if I'm remembering correctly it is a technology issue, just a graphical one. Probably something about how the engine renders scopes makes it hard/impossible to do.

I have my doubts about that, because i'm seeing the moving virtual crosshair in the game. It's almost the same thing we need to be in the scopes.

Let's take a look at it. Move around and shoot, watch the impact points and "pipper" position. It's virtually placed (projected) somewhere far away and aligned with muzzle or sight (can't make the perfect measurement to differ). Looking from the side, the impact point is always on the line between the muzzle and pipper.

That's almost the exact behavior of collimating sight!

Difference: the real crosshair is projected onto the scope glass. The virtual one in the game is just the opposite - we can see it outside the glass only. IF we could see it on the glass, we would get the collimating sight.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Maximus_G

[Lhowon 10]

That's my point though - I don't know much about how the engine works so I can't prove it, but it seems possible to me that rendering the crosshair uses different technology to rendering the scopes, and it's also possible that trying to combine the two would result in graphical errors that aren't easily fixed.

If I am remembering the dev quote correctly I think this is the case.

I also remember attempts in ArmA 1 to do this, and I think the closest people got was adding a red dot to the crosshair, so that when you look through the scope (with freelook) it has the parallax effect, and the dot also stays when you hit right click. The obvious downside is that you have a red dot projected out from your gun, so it's not a proper solution at all.

Check this thread for an example of people trying to mod around this problem. Unfortunately I can't dig up the dev quote just now, I think it is buried in one of the massive general discussion threads.

EDIT: I did find

which seems to show the effect working properly, but there might be side effects the maker isn't listing. I hope it can be done because it is a cool effect, but on the other hand it's not all that significant.

EDIT 2: Okay it seems that the above effect works fine for some people, but for other people with different hardware etc. it produces graphical bugs.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Lhowon

[koroush47 10]

^Up. Let me put here the proper collimating sight behavior example:

Cool video, i never knew aimdots did that.

[Lhowon 10]

While I'm sure everyone would like to see this in game, it should be noted that it's not actually that useful for the large majority of players. Really only those with TrackIR might benefit and even then it's not going to help much.

The effect is useful in real life because you aren't always going to be pointing the gun dead straight, so you can use the sight as a guide. In the game you always point straight so it's not really useful. It's more of an aesthetic thing than a gameplay advantage.

[galzohar 31]

Cool video, i never knew aimdots did that.

That is really a defining feature of red dot sights... The second being the extreme easiness of shooting with 2 eyes open.

[Maximus_G 0]

Well, i personally think it's important for the people even if they don't realize that now. I think it's obligatory to have at least basically proper sight in a shooter sim game. And it is important indeed, when you have to make 10 shots instead of 1 to hit the damn thing because your sight doesn't point where it should: it is NOT about trackir head slides, it's about barrel dancing in your left hand. It's in the video in the first post here. I've pointed it out in my second post here too.

Glad to see a mod working; it's not public for some reason, but i'll pm the man who made it.

Cool video, i never knew aimdots did that.

Agree, these things are great.

[Mudkip 0]

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[Alex72 1]

Doesnt the crosshair behave like that when you sit in the harrier for example? Have crosshairs enabled and move your head around (LEFT ALT) and watch it.

Maybe not the same thing though. Not sure.

[Deadfast 43]

...

This one doesn't work with ATI cards - you always see the cross floating on the screen no matter if you're zoomed in or not.

[Alex72 1]

Just tested sitting in the harrier and looking around - the crosshair behaves like the sights. At least i think its the same behaviour.

[telejunky 0]

Yep they say that they simply can't do it because it is an engine limitation and it seems that BIS don't know a work around. But this stiff dot combined with fidgety animation makes it impossible to aim. Playing a training with my clan, first i had aimed correctly but i did not hit the target until i remembered that there is no realistic sight. :(

[sakura_chan 9]

This one doesn't work with ATI cards - you always see the cross floating on the screen no matter if you're zoomed in or not.

Not true, I made it and I have an ATI card. I've tried transferring it to Arma2, but there is something different about using alpha textures on guns so I haven't got it working right just yet.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Please keep at it Sakura Chan! It'd be a godsend.

[Maximus_G 0]

Yep they say that they simply can't do it because it is an engine limitation and it seems that BIS don't know a work around.

Well, looks like this limitation is not there any more. I've just tried to put the pipper in the scope.

Now, if i just could make it to not disappear when i click the right mouse button.

[Deadfast 43]

Not true, I made it and I have an ATI card. I've tried transferring it to Arma2, but there is something different about using alpha textures on guns so I haven't got it working right just yet.

In that case I'm very glad to be proven wrong :p

[telejunky 0]

@Maximus_G

Yeah the crosshair got the same function but it does not disappear outside the scope...And mostly I am playing on server which disabled the crosshair ;)

[Alex72 1]

This would do nothing to gameplay though right? Its just that when we move our heads it will look "correct".

Or is it needed with TIR?

[fincuan 0]

I'd say having the sights point where the bullet will hit is a pretty damn big part of gameplay, so yeah it has an effect. As it stands now the sights are misaligned by even the slightest headmovement, which shouldn't be the case. Same thing with aircraft huds.

[Alex72 1]

But when your "draw" your weapon it is aligned with your eyes. So it wouldnt matter if the dot is moving like in real life as the rifle is "locked" to your eye when hitting right mouse button.

With TIR maybe if you could hold the weapon up (drawn) and move your head around at the same time i agree it would help. But whithout when you aim - its locked to your eye - straight forward.

Or did i miss something?

[fincuan 0]

Ideally it would work like that, but in A2 the rifle isn't strictly locked to the eyes when aiming. There's an ever so slight wobble, the sights get slightly misaligned, enough to cause an offset of several meters at distance. With properly done red-dots this wouldn't matter, because even if the dot was off-center on the screen it would still point to the target.

[Maximus_G 0]

@Maximus_G

Yeah the crosshair got the same function but it does not disappear outside the scope...And mostly I am playing on server which disabled the crosshair ;)

That's why i tried to call BIS attention to the problem here. They tend not to make any corrections in object models in the game, when making patches. It's up to community to mod them. But this looked like a slightly different case, which would probably involve tweaking the game inside because it couldn't be done with user mods.

Now thanks to Sakura_Chan we presumably could do something with that.