Multi Player Communities dieing overnite

[hund 0]

Well, if you come over from a well polished game that works out of the box, and the expect to find the same in this game, you do come across as spoiled - just a little bit tho, not that much at all.

All I am trying to convey here is that bitching and moaning won't accomplish anything expect make you look like a bunch of whiners. Constructive feedback we can use on the other hand. So less talking about why you're never going to buy another BIS product and how offended you are, and more telling BIS what exactly went wrong, preferably with good documentation.

Quite a fisticuffs we got ourselves into here, eh? Good sport.

[spamurai 3]

ArmA II: "Some assembly Required"

LOL

I love the sandbox nature of the ArmA games. I like that you can shape it to fit a large variety of different tastes. If you don't like something, there is bound to be a way that you can tweak it to be more like what you want... however... that is also it's Achilles heel as much as it is a strength. Often to get it right you need to spend time customizing it and that of course involves patience and, frustration.... a lot of players would rather play it right "out of the box" and there's nothing wrong with that.

The fact that it doesn't play "right out of the box" limits the games appeal to those who like tweaking and tinkering. That's what some would argue is the nature of the game or it's "niche" and justifies it's smaller player base... "some people just aren't into it".

The thing is... the game isn't that far removed from having it both ways... a little bit of time and effort spent hammering out more "out of the box" features so it doesn't need it's community to physically build the infrastructure needed to support Multiplayer side, like the Dedicated Server Remote Console and the ingame GUI for setting up the multiplayer games without text editing PBO's and CFG's.

There really isn't a very good "out of box" way of setting up the MP from inside the game without any prior research into customizing, editing and scripting an ArmA Mission... the default ones are pretty lack luster and limited and you don't see them being played for a reason. ArmA is the only shooter I know where server browser is full of games of every other kind other then the ones created by the developer... and that should say something about the "approachability" of running Multiplayer ArmA games.

[An Fiach 10]

I'm quite happy that we have people like anfiach here.

Hope we will see your properly designed and made MP missions (PvP ?) soon :)

But it seems that it is more important to write post after post. It would be better to open the A2 editor, stick your nose into it, stop whining and actually make missions. BIS doesn't provide them.

Don't become desperate, it takes a long time to make missions, specially MP missions, that includes lots of testing and testing. One day after hundreds of hours you'll get there.

I personally will not release anything public anymore (ok, not completely true, one last release with different missions, even one PvP).

In my opinion it's not worth it, because of all those wiseacres here.

Btw, it takes countless hours to port an A1 mission over to A2.

Xeno

I'm actually working on it right now, my first release will be a SP map simply because it takes time and experience to learn the editor and it doesnt help that not everything works properly, including some of the commands and scripting that BIS have provided already. I'm almost finished with it though and I have a big project in the pipeline waiting to be implemented once I discover everything I need to know to make it work.

BTW my comment about ported missions was in regard to mission design, not the porting process which still, is just a matter of replacing the right items and transferring locations, hardly starting from scratch. So thanks for your whining too.

[wooly-back-jack 10]

I think Xeno's done a splendid job tbh, all I find myself enjoying is his missions. Admittedly I have not tried all that much. Even though I've had the game since UK release I haven't played as much as I would have liked because of the CTD's.

Had one go of Evo - that's something to try later in the games life for me

PvP had a few goes of, one server was alright but another looked a mess with bright green nametags all over the place.

[An Fiach 10]

Well, if you come over from a well polished game that works out of the box, and the expect to find the same in this game, you do come across as spoiled - just a little bit tho, not that much at all.

All I am trying to convey here is that bitching and moaning won't accomplish anything expect make you look like a bunch of whiners. Constructive feedback we can use on the other hand. So less talking about why you're never going to buy another BIS product and how offended you are, and more telling BIS what exactly went wrong, preferably with good documentation.

Quite a fisticuffs we got ourselves into here, eh? Good sport.

LOL don't even care about polish. You are mistaking the fact that I am saying that it isn't right to condemn people who are upset that they have been defrauded. You (well not necessarily you)are excusing poor business practice because you like what the product will be when it is working as it should have when it was sold. When you offer a product to someone and then fail, upon receipt of payment to provide that product, that's called fraud. Don't be so hard on people that are upset about it. Maybe I'm just old fashioned in believing that people and businesses should be expected to deal honestly. It is very possible that these problems are due to the publishers too so I don't give BIS 100% of the blame but this is where people discuss the game, the developers will always bear the weight of responsibility in the eyes of the end user because it is their name that people take note of.

I see a multitude of people in this forum. 1. You have the Dragon Rising (or other twitch fest games) fans that come in and troll away because they want their game to be more popular and because they have no life.

2. You have those that can barely turn a computer on much less figure this game out.

3. You have those that are outright dunces that refuse to read the forums where they can learn that either they just need to use different drivers or that their computer is just outright trash.

4. You have the moderates like myself that, well, we can play the game in its current state and are willing to bash a troll here and there but at the same time understand that it shouldn't be this way in the first place. (I think you are here as well, you just gotta step outside of things)

5. You have the long time community members that have invested a lot of time and effort here whether it be mods, missions or simply helping others, that tend to get up in arms about anything they perceive as an insult to the game/developers/themselves whether it is intended that way or not.

6. You have the all out fanbois. These people you cannot reason with and their ultimate goal in life is to birth Marek's love child.

7. and then the moderators.

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

I think Xeno's done a splendid job tbh, all I find myself enjoying is his missions. Admittedly I have not tried all that much. Even though I've had the game since UK release I haven't played as much as I would have liked because of the CTD's.

Had one go of Evo - that's something to try later in the games life for me

PvP had a few goes of, one server was alright but another looked a mess with bright green nametags all over the place.

Xeno HAS done a great job nobody implied that he didn't except for him because he chose to take exception to my comment.

---------- Post added at 10:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

ArmA II: "Some assembly Required"

LOL

I love the sandbox nature of the ArmA games. I like that you can shape it to fit a large variety of different tastes. If you don't like something, there is bound to be a way that you can tweak it to be more like what you want... however... that is also it's Achilles heel as much as it is a strength. Often to get it right you need to spend time customizing it and that of course involves patience and, frustration.... a lot of players would rather play it right "out of the box" and there's nothing wrong with that.

The fact that it doesn't play "right out of the box" limits the games appeal to those who like tweaking and tinkering. That's what some would argue is the nature of the game or it's "niche" and justifies it's smaller player base... "some people just aren't into it".

The thing is... the game isn't that far removed from having it both ways... a little bit of time and effort spent hammering out more "out of the box" features so it doesn't need it's community to physically build the infrastructure needed to support Multiplayer side, like the Dedicated Server Remote Console and the ingame GUI for setting up the multiplayer games without text editing PBO's and CFG's.

There really isn't a very good "out of box" way of setting up the MP from inside the game without any prior research into customizing, editing and scripting an ArmA Mission... the default ones are pretty lack luster and limited and you don't see them being played for a reason. ArmA is the only shooter I know where server browser is full of games of every other kind other then the ones created by the developer... and that should say something about the "approachability" of running Multiplayer ArmA games.

LOL that is what the box should say :D

I don't think the game needs more pre-made missions or anything like that, they just need to ensure that what they DO provide, works. I have to agree too, leaving out things for the multiplayer which is probably 95% of the community is holding the game back. They made a lot of improvements with the modules but it still requires scripting knowledge or at the minimum cut&paste&tweak in order to produce something that people actually want to play.

[hund 0]

I am just telling you what the world looks like, nothing more.

People may feel cheated, that is a fact. Whining doesn't make it better (well maybe it does for them, who knows), also a fact. I don't really care because I've done all this twice before. Just sit tight, have whatever fun you can, and things will get better.

And I am happy that you see a multitude of people on the forums, would be intensely boring if you didn't :D

But at the end of the day the only difference between us is that you condone whining (freedom of speech and so on, a laudable approach), while I get tired of seeing the helplessness and try, in my own little way, to tell the poor bastards that it will be alright if they can wait for a while. Most people (or at least everyone that I know on a personal basis in this community) are not actually having huge trouble with the game. Most people had to tweak a bit here and there, but the thing is playing. So reading the damn forums will pay off in the end, but sifting through all these whining posts just doesn't really seem productive to me. Instead of going off on a rant, people could have looked into the matter and for the most part have it tweaked up.

Oh, and best of luck with the mission Mr. Anfiach, happy to see that yer delving into the editor. Going with an SP mission is probably safest if it's your first time, but multiplayer is really where the good meat is at. And it does require a bit more work to do MP, but no more than that. I never got around to learning any kind of scripting language whatsoever, and I still get along quite nicely with MP editing. We have loads of code monkies like Mr. Sickboy up there, and without them everyones life would be that much harder. My advice would be to use what they produce (unless you yourself are a code monkie, then the order of the day is to fight with the others about esoteric stuff like syntaxes and why that doodad belongs here and not there. You will find me stting nearby with a blank expression on my face).

Edited July 22, 2009 by Hund

[An Fiach 10]

I am just telling you what the world looks like, nothing more.

People may feel cheated, that is a fact. Whining doesn't make it better (well maybe it does for them, who knows), also a fact. I don't really care because I've done all this twice before. Just sit tight, have whatever fun you can, and things will get better.

And I am happy that you see a multitude of people on the forums, would be intensely boring if you didn't :D

But at the end of the day the only difference between us is that you condone whining (freedom of speech and so on, a laudable approach), while I get tired of seeing the helplessness and try, in my own little way, to tell the poor bastards that it will be alright if they can wait for a while. Most people (or at least everyone that I know on a personal basis in this community) are not actually having huge trouble with the game. Most people had to tweak a bit here and there, but the thing is playing. So reading the damn forums will pay off in the end, but sifting through all these whining posts just doesn't really seem productive to me. Instead of going off on a rant, people could have looked into the matter and for the most part have it tweaked up.

Oh, and best of luck with the mission Mr. Anfiach, happy to see that yer delving into the editor. Going with an SP mission is probably safest if it's your first time, but multiplayer is really where the good meat is at. And it does require a bit more work to do MP, but no more than that. I never got around to learning any kind of scripting language whatsoever, and I still get along quite nicely with MP editing. We have loads of code monkies like Mr. Sickboy up there, and without them everyones life would be that much harder. My advice would be to use what they produce (unless you yourself are a code monkie, then the order of the day is to fight with the others about esoteric stuff like syntaxes and why that doodad belongs here and not there. You will find me stting nearby with a blank expression on my face).

LOL indeed. I'm pretty much finished with this one except for issues caused by brainless AI that I cannot do anything about and trying to package the PBO with Overview and Init file (doesn't want to cooperate). It's not a pro job but gives me a jumping point to improve on and I intend to expand it to a MP mission later and still working on plans for a large scale project which the concept work is already near completion for. Being a combat veteran gives you no lack of scenarios to base missions off of :p

Oh, and it's not a whine if it's the truth in regard to the shortcomings. Personally, when I get fed up I log off and chop down some trees (take that hippies).

[galzohar 31]

My biggest grip with this game is that while made to rely heavily on user-made content by design, it also provides very little tools and documentation to the user to actually make the content. Currently very few people actually know how to do the more advanced stuff, and even they probably don't know everything about mission making.

[walker 0]

Hi galzohar

You really do persist in saying things that are 180 degrees from the truth. While at the same time saying things that contradict your own posts and in this case

This

...it also provides very little tools and documentation to the user to actually make the content.

:D ROFL

contradicts this

Currently very few people actually know how to do the more advanced stuff, and even they probably don't know everything about mission making.

As do the folowing facts:

1) ArmA II has the best built in mission editor there is in any game, bar none. There just is not a better editor in any other game. It is simple and easy to use.

2) The manual and the video on the ArmA II website explain the basics and there is a Wiki explaining its use in detail and whole forum for specific help and of course OFPEC which is full to the brim with manuals.

3) The other tools available along with its backward compatibility make the Real Virtuality engine the most modded game series ever to exist again bar none. Within days of ArmA II coming out mods were apearing.

Prediction

Within 3 months ArmA II like its previous incarnations BIS's OFP, ArmA I and the VBS family will have increased beyond the total mod capability of every other game that has ever existed (baring Real Virtuality simulations them selves).

I come increasingly to the opinion that you galzohar do not understand what customers want.

Regards walker

Edited July 22, 2009 by walker

[spamurai 3]

Actually, having spent much of 2008 learning to build Multiplayer missions using the ArmA Editor, I can say that it is a good editor and there is indeed a wealth of information both on the official Biki and in the community. The community itself is open and willing for the most part to help itself in building on to the ArmA game.

However, that said, I can also confidently say that despite all that, it can be intimidating and outright discouraging to people trying to sift through the mountain of resources to get the simplest and most straight forward of solutions to some of their most basic questions. It can feel like pulling teeth a lot of times.

For example, the Dev Video on the Editor makes it seem straight forward to put together a simple mission to play, by yourself, and it is indeed very easy and quick. However, it does nothing to reveal any of the tasks that are needed to turn that same mission into a working MP mission for online play. Nor does the Editor itself. So, yes it's great that you can easily drop units into the map and set some waypoints, then click preview and in 5 minutes your playing ArmA, but that doesn't make it a Multiplayer experience. Which you need to do in order to share your mission and play it alongside your friends.

Just finding your editor mission files on your computer after you save the mission can be confusing because they are not even kept in the most intuitive spot... the main ArmA Directory.

There are no example editor missions set aside as a demonstration, the LOAD menu is empty, so you have to find the BIS default examlpes on your computer as well. Not only that, you now need to acquire a specialize tool for extracting the PBO archives to get an example and you need to discover where exactly to put the file so it will appear in the Editors LOAD menu allowing you to see it in the editor. Fortunately a quick trip to the internet will resolve these things, but still, it's left to the player to figure all this out for themselves.

A lot of the missions that players will play online can't be created strictly through the editor. They are driven by a whole lot of custom scripting under the surface.

I have a great deal of fun in the editor and I know a lot of players can too, but lets call a spade a spade here... it's not as straightforward as advertised trying to do the things players are actually wanting to do.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Spamurai

[An Fiach 10]

Ha too true, sometimes I see people answer questions by posting a line of script but those of us new to it have no idea what it means or what to do with it hehe. I even found that when Isaved my mission in the editor I then found 4 files in 3 different places and it took some experimenting to find which ones I needed to use. Also took me time to find out making my own init file wasn't working because it was saving it as .init.txt so I just copied an init file from another .pbo and pasted the script over it in the folder I needed it in.

[galzohar 31]

In addition to what Spamurai said:

Many Biki pages are either based on Arma 1 (which may or may not be relevant to Arma 2 - while often it is, many times it simply is not), and a lot of pages are either "to be completed" with very little info, and many are just plain out empty. Documentation is meant to be made by those who designed the code, not by the users who discovered stuff by trial and error and decided to share them.

Making drag and drop missions in the editor sure is easy, but from that to actually having a mission that you can let others play not to mention run online there is a huge gap. Even to add a few briefing notes I need to know what the hell is a script and to go edit files outside of the game with a text editor, learning syntax etc.

Look up task for example. Not very useful information, now is it... Briefing.html page isn't a whole lot better, other than telling you that in Arma 2 it is no longer done the same way and that you can only do endings with briefing.html it doesn't really tell you how to add the stuff that are really important (the stuff that tell the player what he needs to do in the mission).

I still have no idea why my use of variables doesn't work in any shape or form, even though I practically copy-pasted the code I was suggested in another thread, and tried some different things when it didn't work to no avail. And that's just one example of something I couldn't figure out for the life of me.

Sure other games don't have such useful editors, but other games actually provide content with the game and don't expect the community to make it, so they at least have a reasonable excuse to not provide the tools (then again, that's one of the reasons I don't play those other games, so it's not like I think it's OK to not include a decent editor if you provide content).

I just don't see how the 2 quotes contradict eachother. Other than the editor everything needs to be done with text editors. I don't consider text editors as tools provided by BIS.

[jonneymendoza 10]

spot on. editing stuff in this game is like learning a new programing language. i just cant me asked to do it even though i am a software developer 5 days a week but when i come home i just want to fucking play a game, not do MORE coding in order to play a game or in this case, a mission that i like.

[galzohar 31]

Making missions feels worse than learning a new programming language, as programming languages generally have official documentation, a working environment with a debugger and often other things that help you use the right functions/classes/variables, lots of actual examples and people who actually know how to use it, and overall more intuitive syntax and commands.

[rocket 9]

Making missions feels worse than learning a new programming language, as programming languages generally have official documentation, a working environment with a debugger and often other things that help you use the right functions/classes/variables, lots of actual examples and people who actually know how to use it, and overall more intuitive syntax and commands.

You know there is a wiki, right? I mean, have you actually used it? Between a forum search, that wiki, and very occasionally PM'ing one of the more advanced folks on these forums... these is nothing I have not been able to find out quickly and easily.

IMHO, the issue is... "new people" these days don't take the time to learn the basics. They jump straight in to making a 60 player, domination, 20 task, massive gigantamatron of a mission with bombs, planes, and tanks everywhere. They announce it to the world, then they want sample code all together in one go to achieve it all, complete with instructions. The biggest help to mission making for me, was the fact I learnt Basic as a child (on a C64), and the fact I can read through a wiki.

[galzohar 31]

I think I already explained well enough why the wiki is not a real solution. The grand majority of the wiki is not updated to Arma 2 (which means pages may or may not still be correct, granted often they are but not always). Lots of pages don't even have a lot of info for Arma even though it is a rather old game. Quite a few pages (especially those that are Arma 2 specific) are just plain empty. Something as simple as how to properly use variables is hard to understand form the wiki.

Edited July 23, 2009 by galzohar

[rocket 9]

I think I already explained well enough why the wiki is not a real solution. The grand majority of the wiki is not updated to Arma 2 (which means pages may or may not still be correct, granted often they are but not always). Lots of pages don't even have a lot of info for Arma even though it is a rather old game. Quite a few pages (especially those that are Arma 2 specific) are just plain empty. Something as simple as how to properly use variables is hard to understand form the wiki.

That's because it all still applies, its the same engine and all the commands work as they did before. There are a small number of new commands, that are discussed extensively here. So no, I don't think you're explained well enough. I'd be happy to help you, if you post some specific questions in the relevant forum sections. I spend a good part of my free time, going through that area, answering peoples questions as do many others. My recommendation: post your questions there and/or PM some folks and get their contacts on Skype/MSN.

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

... and quit your bitch'in, it's annoying

[galzohar 31]

I've already had the game crash due to using an Arma 1 description.ext, though at least that was fixable as I just needed to change class names. I've already had briefing.html not work because again it is different in Arma 2. The stuff in the wiki that are the same from Arma 1 should be updated to say that they are relevant to Arma 2, and the stuff that aren't need to be updated.

The specific problems I decided to did try and solve are posted in the relevant forum sections. Answers aren't exactly flying in, though, which shows how few people actually know the answers.

The purpose wasn't to bitch and moan, it's simply that people claim that all information and tools needed for mission making are out there and there are no excuses to not be able to make whatever mission you want, when this simply isn't true, and the facts speak for themselves (how many good MP missions do you see on the servers?).

[An Fiach 10]

Rocket, you are quite mistaken, there is a great deal that is no longer relevant to ArmA 2 and even tools that will not work on everyone's computer. Also, just because people know how to do things doesn't mean they are willing to help others (which is annoying because while they are not willing to share their work they are more than willing to tell everyone how great it is). If you know how to do all of these things that is great but don't look down at others if they don't, not everyone had a C64 in the 80's :P

[rocket 9]

I guess that's just not my experience of things at all, the documentation is aplenty for me and I have no trouble finding the information I need. And I'm not even a member of that "devheaven" site where there is even more information.

Please feel free to let me know if you're having any specific problems - and I'd be happy to help. I just released my first ArmA2 mission and I found it much easier to do than my ArmA missions prior.

[jonneymendoza 10]

The issue is that the in game misison ediotor is pants and VERY limited. why couldnt they make it more user friendly so you can AT LEAST make a basic MP misson on it? right now you cant even do that without wring some code outside of the editor if im not mistaken?

[galzohar 31]

You could make an MP mission in the editor without any coding, the only problem is that it'll probably be a mission nobody will be willing to play ;)

[An Fiach 10]

I guess that's just not my experience of things at all, the documentation is aplenty for me and I have no trouble finding the information I need. And I'm not even a member of that "devheaven" site where there is even more information.

Please feel free to let me know if you're having any specific problems - and I'd be happy to help. I just released my first ArmA2 mission and I found it much easier to do than my ArmA missions prior.

The offer is appreciated and I will take you up on it if I get stuck for too long.