Please don't use Securom copy-protection!

[maddogx 13]

Vilas, while I agree that SecuRom and its cousins are totally pointless and deserve to go the way of the Dodo, it sounds to me like a damaged DVD drive is causing most of your problems. (Except for being unable to backup the disk, which is an obvious problem with any copy protection.)

When I start up Arma2 (non-beta) the delay from double-clicking the link to the game actually starting is about 6-7 seconds, as opposed to 3-4 seconds with the beta versions. Not exactly the end of the world. FPS-wise, I don't see any difference between 1.04 and the latest 59210 beta patch. As for scratched disks, I've never had any of the problems you describe - not even with games I played intensively over several months. :)

Apart from that, I think your ranting against America is totally uncalled for.

[vilas 477]

no, my DVD is probably OK, cause Arma 2 starts without problem

problem and 8-14 times were under Arma 1 versions 1.00-1.05 as i remember BIS changed securing in patch 1.05 to other type and removed in 1.09 beta a.f.a.I.r.

there was Starforce as i remeber

very country editor makes own version

i understand somehow copy-protection (although LAW allows me to have one hard copy more) but i don't understand checking disc every time i use application

i don't like mess on my desk and DVDs laying there, i have shelf, case and discs are there, most of them used ONCE to instal only

lower FPS i have even when i will take away disc from drive

but in Beta i have 5 FPS more and no lags

so what is difference between both of them (version no beta and version beta) ?

only securom :]

MadDogX - when you say about disc check you must realise that for example in Arma 1 tools disc was checked ALSO when starting Oxygen Viewer

when i do addons , it means i have to start, close , many times restart viewer of tools

you use disc once a day to start GAME, i had to use it 20 times to check model in tools :)

i don't want wait 10 seconds too see every single model/texture/material fix

imagine that you do car, you place texture, you place seats, you ... and every time this 7 seconds and disc checking... and again and again... it is pain in the ass

i have Arma2 tools along with Beta 1.03 so i have no idea is on CLEAN instal tools require disc or not

but if yes (like Arma1) than imagine yourself working few hours on model and 20 times disc check , 20 times waiting 7-8-10 seconds when viewer start etc. after single model fix (collar lower, collar higher, pouch there, pouch here, shadow lod, changing shadow.... etc)

when you change RVMAT or NOHQ or other file , you must restart viewer to take change

after 5-6 times of model look, polygons limit finished and you must restart viewer again etc.

Edited September 30, 2009 by vilas

[zOMGREI 10]

It's illegal to install a game on several computers, unless you've bought two or more licenses.

No, it isn't.

But you tried to do something illegal.

No, he didn't. If he attempted to bypass the copy protection, then he would be treading into dangerous waters.

Installation alone is not against the law. Simultaneous usage may or may not be against the law.

It is still a gray area concerning only being able to use software on only one computer (that you own) at a time. There theoretically is no limit on personal (non-commercial) use of purchased software, as long as you are the owner of the system the software is being installed on. Commercial users are bound to different standards.

The invention of licensing, keys, and other artificial limitations on home computers, while it is the current standard, hasn't really been tested as far as it's legal enforceability goes. There is a reason that Microsoft's relatively recent change of limiting Windows (as well as Office now, I believe) installations to one active PC at a time is constantly under fire. This controversy exists not solely because people are cheap.

Regardless, at this point most statements about the current legalities for the non-commercial user are basically conjecture. I qualify even my own statements and research under this disclaimer as well. There's very little precedent in the industry, and what does exist is typically either outdated and/or not directly related to the context. Saying something is outright illegal when it's not a case of blatant theft is alarmist and not constructive.

That said, I am against the usage of SecuROM and other intrusive DRM schemes because aside from treating customers like criminals, it stops absolutely nobody. The only way most of these DRM methods would work would be if the internet had never been invented. DRM has a mild deterring effect when a physical disk is absolutely required in order to pirate the game, since this (aside from removing the ease of data transportation that the internet provides) would remove the anonymity the internet provides and would require pirating outfits to be a physical entity. This would greatly inhibit distribution and would make it much easier for authorities to track and shut down these outfits.

Edited September 30, 2009 by zOMGREI

[madine75 0]

No, it isn't.

No, he didn't. If he attempted to bypass the copy protection, then he would be treading into dangerous waters.

Installation alone is not against the law. Simultaneous usage may or may not be against the law.

According to the License Agreement for Arma2, simultaneous usage is not allowed under the agreement. See here:

2. Limited Use of License

The Licensor hereby grants, and by installing the Program you thereby

accept, a restricted, non-exclusive license and right to install

and use one (1) copy of the Program for your personal use.

You may not network the Program or otherwise install it or use it

on more than one computer at a time, except if expressly authorized

otherwise in the applicable documentation. The Program is licensed,

not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Program.

[vilas 477]

none of ANY company regulation, none of EULA cannot be higher than national regulations :]

my country allows me to have one copy of orginal in case of disc phisical dammage

Arma 1 broken this rule, i couldn't copy disc and cannot reinstal arma 1

because of such things some countries administrations chosen Linux, many of my friends use linux, i use Open Office too :)

[maddogx 13]

It's the same here in Germany.

According to German law, a EULA is only legal if it is presented to the user before purchase of the product. If a EULA is only presented after purchase, for example before installation, it is no longer legally valid - even if the user clicks on "I accept" because the software would not install otherwise. In general, any EULA clauses that "unilaterally and extraordinarily" limit the users rights or contradict applicable law are considered invalid in Germany, no matter when they are presented or whether or not they were accepted.

[zOMGREI 10]

According to the License Agreement for Arma2, simultaneous usage is not allowed under the agreement. See here:

And he didn't use it simultaneously.

Additionally, as I stated earlier, there's still the question of whether or not these EULAs in their current form are even legally enforceable. As it stands right now, no, they are not legally binding contracts by the current letter of the law. This has not been challenged in court to date, so this is, as I stated earlier, a gray area.

Currently, in order for the EULA to be a legally binding contract, it would have to be presented to the consumer prior to their purchase. You cannot return open software in most (if not all) places in the US for a refund, so if the consumer declines to accept the EULA, they are effectively screwed. Obviously, trying to present the EULA prior to a purchase in a physical store isn't realistic, but I believe the first step would have to be offering some sort of return program through the publisher for people that decline the EULA to get a refund. This would not address all issues, since the way the EULA is presented electronically right now isn't technically legal either.

Finally, again, the practice of limiting non-commercial users to a single install is also still of contested legality as well, but with no precedent to draw on it's not possible to really offer much insight on this.

At any rate, this is getting OT, and still doesn't change the fact that SecuROM and it's ilk aren't effective at all and deters customers more than it does pirates.

[madine75 0]

I have done a bad manipulation with Securom and now after installing on 2 computers with one DVD I must purchase 2 others DVD if I want to play again.

It couldn't appear with Steam security and I just want to play on my personal two computers lan.

I am waiting a response from Securom since saturday.

505 games say that's illegal so they can stop the contract when they want.

And he didn't use it simultaneously.

Ahh, he tried, and the failure seems to be what has inspired Faucon's rant.

Back OT, is DRM a good thing? Not really, but it does prevent the kinds of casual piracy that the gentleman above was trying. I've never had any issues with SecuROM causing damage to my discs or drives, nor have I seen any reports of it from trusted sources. We will have to live with DRM in some form until either:

A) The various publishers/developers give up trying to protect their income and cease adding DRM to the software.

B) People realise that piracy is wrong, and a whole lot of legal rhetoric doesn't make it right.

I'd hate to see A happen, as the quality of software is sure to become lower and lower..

[vilas 477]

bullshit :/

you call that guy pirate ? if he was copying and selling 100 copies than okay, guy wanted to play on his PC and secon PC, it is no pirracy

and once again - law of many countries ALOW people to have legal copy !!!

i couldn't copy my Arma1 , disc was scratched by checking originality and i cannot reinstall Arma 1

A - hahahahaha, read what i said before

B - hahahahaha, if "cracked" works without problems and "legal" causes problems, slower work of aplication and etc. than how you want say to people "buy legal CD with music that you cannot hear in PC, in car, in discman (cause your hifi is broken) instead of downloading MP3 which work without problems" "buy legal software which you can register, receive letter, wait for codes, use disc in drive, when one of PC elements or format happens, than explain it to receive another code... instead of just instal and use" and "play legal with lags and 20 fps instead of securom free cracked with 26 fps and no lags" hahahahaha

you'd hate to see A ?

Linux community ? Linux Office is less buggy than Ms and all works good, many Linux application do not have problems

if i have choice between software "just install and use and forget where disc lay" and software "enter codes, call company, register, wait for letter, enter another code, use disc, after motherboard change call to company again and feel interrogation why you want another code , receive spam about their products ..."

my friend bought legal dictionary

it costed him 270 zl with earnings in my part of world than ca. 1500 zl

guy had enter codes, call company , wait for letters

next month his VGA was burned, software hardware key was changed , he called company, he was interrogated "why, what happened" and he received another letter after 3 weeks

next year he get money for new PC, he had to call them for another code and guy in line said "sir, you already had 2 codes, why you are changing so many times codes"

his answer was angry fu***off

and he downloaded the same dictionarry from torrent and ALL WORKS GOOD without disc check, damn codes, damn letters, damn telephon interrogations and etc !

the more securing, the more people love cracked version, cause legal versions made them ANGRY !

i bought CD of rock band, it was "protected", i have hi-fi amplifier, i don't have CD in hi-fi

this CD was not working neither in CD rom nor on car-cd !

i returned goddamn music to shop with anger

i just wanted to hear music, not goddamn 1 second silence pause every 30 seconds cause they "secured against piracy"

if my Arma 1 disc is scratched who will give me back next disc , that i can have according to law ??? i want reinstal Arma 1 and i cannot, disc is scratched becuase of Starforce in edition

software should be "instal and use"

in many countries people earn less than system, office and other soft cost :/

as now photo cameras are "one button easy photo" and such should be software

i am buying, i am installing, i am throwing CD in my shelf

when in 3 years i have new PC than i search for software disc

comfort of usage is for me as important as other issues, not only when it comes to ergonomic chair or bed or bike or whatever

i use a lot of freeware and some OEMs cause i hate all those "call, write, register, wait, enter disc, enter codes, receive letter" etc. and i try to learn Linux more

many of my friends use Linux only because of easy use software

securom in this game makes 5-6 FPS less in my case

i understand copy-protection, but i cannot understand use-protection like told above (music disc, dictionary translator, etc.)

many companies are user friendly and they have good sales without problems

easy software is smile on face of user, not easy is anger

second thing about piracy

for me BIS product can even cost twice more under condition that my money go to BIS pockets, not to 10 other "co-sellers" and "president of shop and his wh***"

how much money has musician from his record ?

i know some musicians , my 3 friends play in bands and they have very small %, they earn from live shows, not from CD

how much money has programmer who wrote application ?

in some poor countries people programmers work for 300 usd monthly while sales of western companies that employs them bilions :/

and how big money has fat pig from co-selling companies as publisher, his co-ltd and etc.

i want my money go to BIS hands in big % , not in 1%

cause shop takes 30% megastore who sell to shop another 30%, transportation company in co- with publisher ..... .... .... .... and BIS 0,1 cent from my Euro ??? :(

game costs for example 100 X in shop

shop has it for 70X from megastore wholesaler

megastore has it for 50X from publisher

by the way transportation co-company of publisher takes it's 5X, cause wholesaler cannot buy from disc manufacture without co-company permission and etc.

publisher pays 1X to company who made this ?

Edited October 1, 2009 by vilas

[draeath 10]

Personally, I would rather BI just didn't bother giving money to a parasite like Sony DADC, Macrovision, or Protection Technology.

Spend that money on development time and artists, and give us a better game.

Also... not that you are wrong, but some of your writing styles tend to remove credibility from your arguments. They look like the ramblings of an angry 5th grader.

[almanzo 144]

This is a very hard topic for me... And I have to admit, I've occationally been a pirate, for several reasons. Back in the days, when games didn't have copy protections, I was in my early teen years. Yes, I pirated games becouse of my sheer amount of money. But everytime I stumbled upon a game I actually enjoyed, I bought that game out of respect for the developers.

If you buy I boardgame, you know what you'll get. If you buy a TV you'll know what you get. If it doesnt meet your expectations, or is malfunctioning, you can complain an mostly get your money back. If a game is badly design, you can't. The concept of quality is different in gaming, music and movies. Games though are very special. Simple bad design would render a TV useless, in a game, it would just cause lag, buggs and generally a bad game. But a bad game doess not give you a refund, a bad TV doess...

I stopped pirating completely when STEAM came around to be good, and reasonable. Cheaper than retail and fast download. I pirated becouse it meant fast download, simple as that. STEAM won over piracy simply becouse it was fast, reliable, stable and cheap. Downloads should be cheaper than retail becouse you'll skip shipping and retail costs. Downloads are even kinder to the enviroment. But now, after STEAM kind of found out that 1$ = 1 Euro they lost me as a costumer, effectivly allmost doubleing prices over night.

In Norway, by law you have allways had the option to share content with close friends and relatives. You are allowed to borrow games from friends, and borrow them yours. Are you really suggesting that you shouldn't be able to borrow games, music or movies from your friends? Is it legit of developers to deny this from paying costumers, yet for pirates they can simply copy the IMG-file onto the harddrives of their friends without any penalty?

The entertainment industry have brought this onto them selves, by being concervative about new technology, abusing paying costumers and by being simply greedy. I've borrowed alot of games from friends, and alot of those games have found them selves on their way to my gameshelf becouse I liked them. People expect to get the games they borrow away back, so they are simply marketing for you.

about 100% of the games I've ever pirated I never would have bought, not a chance. About 50% of the games I've bought, I tried a pirated version of first. In my case, the gaming industry, including both bohemia and codemasters have actually benefited on piracy. I would most likely not ever have bought Operation flashpoint in the first place.

Why in the world doess developers think that punishing legit costumers is a good marketing idea? And don't even try saying that you don't have a technical issue with securom/etc, becouse it evedently is a bother for many.

Restrictions, restrictions, restrictions for those who are legit... freedom for those who are disshounest... sounds like a great tactical turn against bankrupcy...