Devastation: mission pack. Team vs Team.

[Jeepo 10]

Well so far our server seemed to cope just fine, with me personally getting very smooth gameplay and a high FPS. Only real issues were the bugs such as the RP's not working correctly, but those are already known. Gameplay wise it is great fun, and once VON gets working and we get a chain of command set up it would really rock. At one point last night both our servers were running it, with 29 people on server 1 alone. A few gameplay tweaks were suggested though.

1. Lock all enemy vehicles. While it may be fun to grab that crash landed chopper and repair it, it is unrealistic to a degree. A better choice for the OpFor would be to either leave it there and ambush a rescue party, or simply destry it, causing the opposition a ticket and transport loss.

2. Lock the vehicles to the kit, this way it is more realistic. So, to be a pilot you HAVE to request that pilot kit, and they are obviously limited in number to the number of choppers available.

3. Make it easier to figure out how to destroy enemy RPs and FB's if you can fight your way close enough, as the destroy option seems to not work. Maybe give a part of it a hit box that needs to be hit with a grenade or something?

4. RP's need to be unpacked before repositioning, which is realistic in the way that they are all the squad bergans, but perhaps a little bit of a pain?

5. Mouse scroll wheel bug is the most apparant to me. Occasionally I will want to do something and my options wheel will not show up. If I select soldiers in my squad and give them orders that is fine it works then, but not to get in vehicles, or select kits, or to deploy assets around a FB etc.

6. Kit issues. If we are in an infantry engagement and win, we can scavenge the bodies, taking that Javelin. That is fair, they should have had adequate protection for such a valuable kit. However, how long does that kit stay on the body? Is it indefinate? If we kill him and 6 minutes later we get close to his body can we take his kit and use it? IMO that would be too long. Maybe a 1 minute max before it is "dead" to the opposition and starts to count down to re-enter the pool. That way we get rewarded for a good move, and they get punished for not thinking it through.

All in all though I am very impressed that this is so good for a beta, and will look forward to more.

J

Edited July 6, 2009 by Jeepo

[alan.rio 18]

Well so far our server seemed to cope just fine, with me personally getting very smooth gameplay and a high FPS. Only real issues were the bugs such as the RP's not working correctly, but those are already known. Gameplay wise it is great fun, and once VON gets working and we get a chain of command set up it would really rock. At one point last night both our servers were running it, with 29 people on server 1 alone. A few gameplay tweaks were suggested though.

1. Lock all enemy vehicles. While it may be fun to grab that crash landed chopper and repair it, it is unrealistic to a degree. A better choice for the OpFor would be to either leave it there and ambush a rescue party, or simply destry it, causing the opposition a ticket and transport loss.

2. Lock the vehicles to the kit, this way it is more realistic. So, to be a pilot you HAVE to request that pilot kit, and they are obviously limited in number to the number of choppers available.

3. Make it easier to figure out how to destroy enemy RPs and FB's if you can fight your way close enough, as the destroy option seems to not work. Maybe give a part of it a hit box that needs to be hit with a grenade or something?

4. RP's need to be unpacked before repositioning, which is realistic in the way that they are all the squad bergans, but perhaps a little bit of a pain?

5. Mouse scroll wheel bug is the most apparant to me. Occasionally I will want to do something and my options wheel will not show up. If I select soldiers in my squad and give them orders that is fine it works then, but not to get in vehicles, or select kits, or to deploy assets around a FB etc.

6. Kit issues. If we are in an infantry engagement and win, we can scavenge the bodies, taking that Javelin. That is fair, they should have had adequate protection for such a valuable kit. However, how long does that kit stay on the body? Is it indefinate? If we kill him and 6 minutes later we get close to his body can we take his kit and use it? IMO that would be too long. Maybe a 1 minute max before it is "dead" to the opposition and starts to count down to re-enter the pool. That way we get rewarded for a good move, and they get punished for not thinking it through.

All in all though I am very impressed that this is so good for a beta, and will look forward to more.

J

On 1, I agree.

On 2, I agree with this also and posted something along those lines in the dev haven.

On 3, In PR the rally points were deemed destroyed when they were overrun by the enemy, say 2-3 bad guys within 20m.

On 6, I think 1 - 2 minutes would be enough time before the kit disappears, but perhaps put a 3-4 minute delay before it is returned to the pool for reselection. Also you could punish a player who gets killed with an important kit with minus points or longer respawn time and if his kit is captured, more points lost. Make it dependent on the importance of the kit. It will assign a responsibility to important kits and emphasize the importance of not putting important equipment at risk. It worked well in PR, guys who repeatedly lost the HAT and sniper kits ended up with minus points.

In fact you could go further with this, because some people don't have any consideration for teamwork, and will take kits and important vehicles and lose them hurting the team badly. By assigning negative points to players for losing kits, and being crewmen in vehicles that were destroyed you could demote them to the point where all they are qualified to use is a rifle! If the negative points system was balanced correctly you could disqualify people with negative scores from certain important kits, the level of disqualification dependent on how negative a players score is.

If a player takes a kit/apc uses it properly and gets some kills or does some good teamwork he earns points so that when he gets killed he still gets minus points but he comes out on positive on average because he did well. All available kits are open to him at respawn.

If another player takes the same kit and messes up, loses the kit/apc then he ends up getting negative points. If he does that repeatedly he is then disqualified from important kits by accumulating negative score, and if the "crewman kit only to drive" idea is put into effect he can also be disqualified from important vehicles!

End result:

1.

Good players who play responsibly and carefully with a emphasis on team work can have access to the best kits, which will mean the team will work more effectively

2.

Bad, high risk (mind you, if they are good enough to pull off the high risk move points will reward them also) irresponsible players are restricted to grunt work until they prove themselves by EARNING their way back into a position of responsibility.

3.

The score board is no longer a pissing contest, it is a true measure of teamwork, responsible usage of resources and effectiveness.

Problem: Such a scoring system would be difficult to balance.

I'll post this on the dev haven also.

Edited July 7, 2009 by [RIP] Alan.rio

[galzohar 31]

That scoring system is totally messed up. Next thing you'll see is all vehicles and important kits being left behind because nobody wants to be punished for messing up with them, and would rather get score the safe old fashion way.

Important equipment is there to be used, not to be treated as something that needs to be guarded at all costs, even at the cost of the mission. Besides in real combat no single person actually has mission critical gear. For example if the enemy is expected to have 3 tanks and you're going in as infantry, you're not going to bring only 3 javelins, and get rolled over if one of them ends up hitting a tree.

[alan.rio 18]

As i said. Problem: Such a scoring system would be difficult to balance.

If it was balanced so that only repeated loss of important equipment disqualified you then it would not hinder the majority of players. Only the very bad Rambo players. I'm not suggesting a system so severe that people are tip-toeing around the map so as not to get negative points. I'm suggesting a system that would stop very bad stupid players (there's one or two in EVERY match) from ruining a game for everybody on his team.

And as for your last sentence, I don't get your point, sorry if I wasn't clear enough I was just typing as I thought of it. I don't want to put you down but it has nothing to do with the points system I'm proposing.

But lets use the scenario you describe to illustrate my point. I'm not proposing reducing the number of kits, you can still carry as many javelins as you want or are allowed anyway, I'm proposing a system that decides WHO carries the javelins. i.e. not the guy who will run out in front of the tank and get killed leaving the squad one javelin down. Because, under the proposed system, he will be the guy who has lost the javelin/APC/sniper/chopper 3-4 times already and is now disqualified from using it. End result: The javelin is now in the hands of a competent user, tanks get destroyed, team wins.

EDIT: Thats not to say that the guy with the negative score will not be able the get a javelin later in the mission, he can redeem himself by teamwork and fighting well to make his score go back up again and gradually unlock the important kits again until his score goes positive and he has full access. Its not a "one strike and your out" system, its a "3-4 strikes and your temporarily out until you redeem yourself".

Edited July 7, 2009 by [RIP] Alan.rio
New thought.

[galzohar 31]

Your whole idea is based on "kit X is better than kit Y and we need the people with kit X to perform". While your proposed solution does improve the situation, the real solution is to make all kits useful and important yet not 100% critical for the given mission. Like IRL.

[Jeepo 10]

While the 3 strikes policy idea has merit, there are still the obvious problems. Think of ranked Domination. People who join midway always complain about those with big scores whoring all the fun stuff. Now while this may or may not be an issue to some (I don't get to worked up about it) it can still leave a bitter taste. Personally I think this issue can be solved by a commander. Once the commander assigns the kits things should flow smoothly. However, no commander means back to square one.....Tough one to call, I will think about this for a while and any ideas I will throw in here.

Also some guidelines would need to be spelt out as to what constitutes good teamwork. Apart from kills. So transporting troops in a vehicle/bird earns points? Building FB's? Building RP's? Transporting ammo? These would need to be made clear so people know what is what. It also forces the point whores into teamwork, which while not ideal (I prefer point whores play on other servers;) ) it is still better than no teamwork.

[alan.rio 18]

While the 3 strikes policy idea has merit, there are still the obvious problems. Think of ranked Domination. People who join midway always complain about those with big scores whoring all the fun stuff. Now while this may or may not be an issue to some (I don't get to worked up about it) it can still leave a bitter taste. Personally I think this issue can be solved by a commander. Once the commander assigns the kits things should flow smoothly. However, no commander means back to square one.....Tough one to call, I will think about this for a while and any ideas I will throw in here.

Also some guidelines would need to be spelt out as to what constitutes good teamwork. Apart from kills. So transporting troops in a vehicle/bird earns points? Building FB's? Building RP's? Transporting ammo? These would need to be made clear so people know what is what. It also forces the point whores into teamwork, which while not ideal (I prefer point whores play on other servers;) ) it is still better than no teamwork.

@ bold type above

People joining the server would have 0 points, i.e. non-negative and all kits would be available to them. Only consistant negative play would disqualify a player from certain kits.

If the point whore want to collect points by doing teamwork then thats ideal! Perfect situation!

Also.

In PR you got points for driving vehicles that were carrying troops, dependant on the number of troops on board, you got points for building firebases (in this gamemode its FOBs). The other thing that increased your points was your proximity to your squad, if a team mate got a kill (say 10 points) within 50m you also got 1-2 points as it was more than likely you were involved in suppressing or spotting the target. This massively encouraged players to move as a squad and stick together. Lone sharks ended up with much less points.

Perhaps the best idea is to have a commander slot. If the slot is filled then the the player in that slot "grants" kits to players who request it. If the slot is left empty then the game uses the "negative points= restricted kits" system I proposed above.

[wormeaten 0]

This is Team based game where wining those who better playing as team not as individuals.

Only what in the end counts is Team score in the end what is count for victory in the end.

Why wasting time and efforts on individual score when this is not important at all.

Sometime individual players have to sacrifice for benefit of team and maybe he don’t have opportunity to make some significant individual score but his role in his team victory is crucial.

Therefore I think we just need Team score and maybe squad score nothing else.

We need squad organized system similar as PR maybe like on Evolution map where you requesting to join in some players squad without AI of course only PvP version.

[galzohar 31]

While having team score only and no personal score is something I'd personally love to see, apparently and unfortunately a lot of public servers would've been empty in many FPS games if this was the situation.

[oldbear 390]

I have tested the mission with 19 other guys this evening during what we call a Battle's Games day, a gathering of players from different teams, French teams this night.

After being enthusiastic at the prospect, I have posted about it on Armed Assault.info as soon as it was published/released, I am now a bit dubious about the mission.

I had tried to play Bluefor, have been killed instantly at mission start, respawn in water, choose a spawnpoint at outpost, and was here without weapon, found a boxe with the only weapons I can have : grenade ... why not, an attack with grenades only can be fun, load a mortar in a truck then go to Bravo as my team mate were on Alpha.

Unable to unload the mortar at Bravo, wait a bit, hearing fights and having reports from my team mates. I went then to next point west, unable to capture the point even with my friends capturing the other point, we spent there 3 min waiting. Afterward they have been killed, so I went alone to Foxtrot, hoping I can get weapons from a corpse, nothing here even if the fight having been heavy.

The Opfor has gained all the camps.

In a desperate move I killed myself, respawn on LHD, with a gun but unable to board a chopper as pilot, I jump in a RHIB, hurting myself in the jump, rescue some fellows swimming around the boat ... game over.

[alan.rio 18]

I have tested the mission with 19 other guys this evening during what we call a Battle's Games day, a gathering of players from different teams, French teams this night.

After being enthusiastic at the prospect, I have posted about it on Armed Assault.info as soon as it was published/released, I am now a bit dubious about the mission.

I had tried to play Bluefor, have been killed instantly at mission start, respawn in water, choose a spawnpoint at outpost, and was here without weapon, found a boxe with the only weapons I can have : grenade ... why not, an attack with grenades only can be fun, load a mortar in a truck then go to Bravo as my team mate were on Alpha.

Unable to unload the mortar at Bravo, wait a bit, hearing fights and having reports from my team mates. I went then to next point west, unable to capture the point even with my friends capturing the other point, we spent there 3 min waiting. Afterward they have been killed, so I went alone to Foxtrot, hoping I can get weapons from a corpse, nothing here even if the fight having been heavy.

The Opfor has gained all the camps.

In a desperate move I killed myself, respawn on LHD, with a gun but unable to board a chopper as pilot, I jump in a RHIB, hurting myself in the jump, rescue some fellows swimming around the boat ... game over.

Its a beta version for beta testers! Hosting a "Battle's Games day" with other clans is way above the capability of this mission in its current state, and Dr. Eyeball has noted that at every opportunity!

All the bugs you have mention have already been noted, you really should have either cheaked it out yourself first or read the bug list.

[oldbear 390]

I am not complaining nor whining just telling about my own experiment, others, in the same evening were having a better testing experience.

I have said we were testing the mission, not "playing" it.

It was a beta test for a beta version, I think that the only way to have a lot of beta testers together as the map required a large number of players is to beta test it during a "gathering" of players from the same area.

If there is a better way, just tell us !

Edited July 8, 2009 by Old Bear

[alan.rio 18]

I am not complaining nor whining just telling about my own experiment, others, in the same evening were having a better testing experience.

I have said we were testing the mission, not "playing" it.

It was a beta test for a beta version, I think that the only way to have a lot of beta testers together as the map required a large number of players is to beta test it during a "gathering" of players from the same area.

If there is a better way, just tell us !

Fair enough i misread the context of your post.

[dr_eyeball 16]

Allow a bit more time (as stated in the schedule) to finish testing the beta missions and updates. I appreciate the testing done so far. The top 4 critical bugs were a bit unexpected, since I couldn't reproduce some of them, so the feedback was great.

There will be another beta, v0.2 hopefully tomorrow.

Summary of urgent issues being addressed in v0.1 for v0.2: - see Issue Tracker

• Explosions occur at bases when players JIP, killing players and causing damage
  
• Respawning causes swimming animation (due to spawning in water)
  
• Armaments dialog action on crates only showing from south side
  
• Players teleported back to base when players JIP
  
• other smaller changes
  

Some tips for players: (based on feedback in this thread)

It seems the briefing notes disappear upon respawn, so new players had no starting information to go by. Here's a few tips.

All base crates have a "Armaments (G)" action on them.

Unfortunately, there is an odd bug where this action is not visible from all sides of the crate when on the LHD. So in v0.1 it is only accessible from the south side of the crate.

This is why some players thought there were no interesting weapons and discovered the crates were empty.

Do not jump in the water to access the RHIB's. The crates at main base have another action called "Base Deployment..." to activate the respawn dialog which gives you access to several different locations, including the RHIB's.

Also, falling in the water around the LHD activates the "Man overboard" trigger, which automatically teleports you back on deck.

The boat winch concept is still being worked on.

How to destroy a FOB/Rally Point:

Unfortunately, some objects are indestructible, so:

- to destroy a FOB, you must destroy one of it's ammo crates.

- to destroy a RP, you must activate an action (for now).

FOB/RP owners will not be able to spawn there if your 2+ man group is within about 80m(?).

How to unload a container/static weapon:

The action is attached to the object itself, not the truck. So to unload a static weapon off a truck, you must focus the cursor on the object in the back of the truck and select "Unload" action, even sometimes stepping back 3m. Later when multiple cargo objects are supported, there may be a mini dialog or list of action menu items to choose the right cargo object.

Replies:

@Kju [#38]: Thanks Kju for setting up a DevHeaven project space. I should have done that earlier. I hope that makes it easier for others to report issues and discuss the design.

For the next couple weeks, it is encouraged for you to use the Devastation Forum on DevHeaven for any lengthy discussions on design, to minimise traffic in this thread and keep this thread for news and quick posts.

There's a lot to reply to here, so PM me directly if I've overlooked something.

@[RIP] Alan.rio [#32]: Thanks for finding those bugs. Most of those 13 tasks should be addressed or clarified. I need to PM you on some minor points.

@Nazul [#36]: See the notes above about how to access the Armaments dialog and action plus the bug it has in v0.1.

@Smee [#37]: The Armaments dialog is a lot more flexible than the BF2 loadout screen, so it's not as bad. For fastropes, all current implementations depend on addons, unless you use an invisible or smoke rope.

@7 [#40]: Kit requests require another step after selection whereby you choose your actual loadout, which is different to other games which only offer a fixed loadout per class. The MG & Sniper kits are proportionally available depending on how many players you have on your side. Eg: MG's available to 1 in 3 players, Sniper available to 1 in 6 players.

@Apocal [#43]: Thanks for bug reports.

2. Explosion bug - should be fixed now.

4. Cannot exit opFor spawn truck - could not reproduce that problem

5. Very good to hear, even with all these initial bugs

6. Didn't consider that. Message removed for now anyway.

7. BluFor effort will be much harder, but I find it surprising they lost every round. Did they know about Outpost #2, which has 2 heavy APC's and the container there too. The aircraft crew check will be implemented hopefully tomorrow or next version.

8. I will have to re-evaluate all crate contents and reconsider the rocket ammo, but remember, for each side, one launcher uses rockets occupying 6 slots and the other launcher uses rockets occupying 2 slots, which is the one you should be using for non-tanks.

9. That's the biggest hurdle ATM.

@wormeaten [#44]: Thanks for reporting that teleport bug. Odd that no-one else mentioned it, but it but it should be solved now.

@Adumb [#45] & @Seitan [#50]: The explosions bug should be solved now. Odd how it worked fine in Arma 1. Hopefully those explosions are the cause of the crash.

@Kju [#46]: Infantry oriented missions are coming.

@Apocal [#48]: There are several reasons I'm not using the HQ vehicles as a spawn vehicle, but that could change.

@Jeepo [#51]:

RP's not working? No I wasn't aware of that. What aspect of it?

I checked and noticed the action menu item seems to not appear even when you are squad leader sometimes. Is that the issue?

1. Will probably side lock vehicles or make it optional.

2. Pilot and crew checks will be added soon.

3. Check notes above about destroying FOB's and RP's for the meantime. I'll need a better solution soon for the indestructible objects.

4. Uncertain. Will have to trial it for now.

5. I don't understand that 'mouse scroll wheel' bug. Do you have more info? It was on a dedicated server with real players?

6. Dead body removal/hiding was missing. Should be fixed now. Set to 5 minutes for now.

Kit returns to pool. Currently the kit return delays are set to:

4 minutes for sniper, 3 minutes for launchers, 2 minutes for MG/Grenadier, 30 seconds for others.

@galzohar & @[RIP] Alan.rio [#52-#55]: The penalty system for important vehicles and weapons has been used by PR before (and may still be?), so it does work and has been trialled. That scoring concept will need some further thought.

@Old Bear [#60]: A little too early to be 'dubious'. Check the schedule in the first post. Once it's out of beta with a good selection of missions, it can be evaluated properly.

- Death at mission start should be fixed now.

- Respawn in water should be fixed now.

- No weapon, well that's due to water.

- Empty ammo crates. I think the crates at the Outposts may not have had the Armaments action available. If so, that will be corrected. On the LHD, see notes above on 'actions' bug and how to use and find Armaments action on crates. Bug now has a work around solution in next version.

- Mortar (cargo objects) can only be unloaded by looking at the mortar. There is no action menu on the truck itself. See notes above for tips.

- Unable to capture a point. When in a zone, check the scoreboard ('i' key) to see if you are actually capturing the zone or not. If you are, a timer will appear at the top. Otherwise, you are out of sequence or have insufficient players to capture the zone.

- All corpses should have a weapon atm.

- Unable to board chopper - not sure why that would be.

- Using RHIB - see notes above on proper use and man overboard concept.

Thanks again for the reports. Check back soon for next update.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Dr_Eyeball

[wormeaten 0]

Alain could you organized at Saturday some major testing on RiP server?

The best way to see how it really functioning is playing in full scale. I’m interested in such experiment playing so you can send invitation over this post just says time when to come and possible TS. After playing we could have sort of beefing to compare experience and observations.

Cheers.

[Jeepo 10]

PM sent.

[alan.rio 18]

Alain could you organized at Saturday some major testing on RiP server?

The best way to see how it really functioning is playing in full scale. I’m interested in such experiment playing so you can send invitation over this post just says time when to come and possible TS. After playing we could have sort of beefing to compare experience and observations.

Cheers.

I can lock our server with a password for saturday night, for an hour or two to run through a few games. However we use ventrillo and its strictly for clan members only, can anyone else provide a team speak server, or even just a channel on on teamspeak server for saturday night? I will muster as many of our clan members as possible.

[wormeaten 0]

About TS I have to ask first. ;)

[jonneymendoza 10]

cant wait

[alan.rio 18]

Are we still going to beta test tomorrow night? How about 19:00 GMT? I should have a few RIP lads on to fill up the numbers. Password for the server will be "devastation". Do we have a teamspeak channel anyone, the RIP lads don't need to be in the teamspeak as I can relay all chat to them through vent. If we don't have teamspeak then we can stick with in game voip.

[wormeaten 0]

I'm coming for sure maybe bring few lads+ aqbout TS will ionform you.

[whisper 0]

For TS feel free to use 85.171.255.202:8767

[dr_eyeball 16]

Beta v0.2 is now available for download for testing purposes. Hopefully it addresses the core bugs found in v0.1.

First post has been updated with download links.

Summary of changes in v0.2:

• Added 2 extra test missions. They may be a little rough with object placement and zone positioning. They will be adjusted later.
  
• Added mission: Devastation 12v12: Docks:
  
  • A tiny infantry/light vehicles restricted mission to evaluate any potential for little missions.
    
  • Weapons are restricted to "Crewman/Rifleman" groups. These restrictions still need further adjustments.
    

  [*]Added mission: Devastation 16v16: Three Valleys:

  • A "land versus land" themed mission situated in the forested areas.
    
  • Sectors are sometimes deeply nested in the forest, requiring infantry only access.
    
  • This is probably a more typical style mission. Heavy use of FOB's/RP's would be required to maintain the frontline.
    
  • It probably needs a few APC's added next time.
    

  [*]Fixed: Explosions occur at bases when players JIP. (If somehow you still die at the very start, please report it.)

  [*]Fixed: Respawning causes swimming animation (due to spawning in water)

  [*]Workaround: Object actions (like Armaments dialog action) on LHD are only showing from south side. Seems to be an Arma2 bug.

  • Temporary workaround is to look at the "Generator" object behind it, which shows the correct actions from any angle.
    

  [*]Fixed: Players teleported back to base when players JIP. Not reproduced, so not verified. Changed initializations.

  [*]Fixed: Deployed RP's not listed as available in respawn dialog

  [*]Fixed & Replaced: Voice sounds for: Spot/Request/Orders popup menus.

  • The words are strung together. If some sound too robotic or unnecessary, let us know.
    

  [*]Fixed: Briefing notes should now not disappear after death.

  [*]Added: Basic pilot/crewman checks.

  • However seat switching check is still required to be added.
    
  • The check is bypassed if there are <= 6 players on your side.
    

  [*]Testing an idea of showing actions in white if they belong to an object, as opposed to yourself (reload) or any standard game action (eg: get in).

  • Also the Armaments and Deployment actions are shown in yellow for now, since many players apparently missed seeing them due to the 'LHD action bug' mentioned above.
    

  [*]HQ popup menu has a new option "Show build boundaries" which shows markers of valid build perimeters, which should help plan FOB/RP deployment positions easier.

  [*]A few other minor changes.

Please keep the bug reports coming. They were a great help this time. Thanks to those who reported them.

Next update should be within 1 week, with more missions for remaining themes, plus some Utes missions.

[alan.rio 18]

Fantastic. I'll have it on our server for the test tomorrow night. Just to remind you, filter [RIP], it will be passworded (password: devastation) teamspeak provided by the pingzero server address 85.171.255.202:8767. We'll kick off at 19:00 GMT, (London time). All welcome.

[wormeaten 0]

Is it GMT 19 (BST 20) or you mean GMT = BST?