ultra realistic mode

[Alex72 1]

And BIS would never enforce it so...

I cant with the floating either. Cant hit shit with it. Feels like i dont have any control at all. like me with a PS3 thumb control... Cant do shit with it.

Alex

[SeanRamey 10]

Here is what my suggestion is about the ArmA2 crosshairs. I think there

should be absolutely no crosshairs, and that there should be no floating zone,

so that the weapon shoots exactly at what you point it at. Only you dont

know what you are pointing at until you fire it. Now I know that people will

just start aiming at the center of the screen because thats were your

looking, but no, ArmA 2 also needs to have an aiming point that is not exactly

aimed at the center of the screen. Let it have some play to move around

loosely. Have the aim kind of like a Wii. When you start to get around the

edges of the sceen the view turns.

(Is this clear, or do I need to explain in a little more detail on something?)

[frederf 0]

How on earth is no crosshairs on no float too accurate? It makes you able to blast off a few rounds in panic when an enemy suddenly appears 5 meters in front of you, nothing more. Not like you can use it for any kind of aiming or anything.

I don't think crosshairless 0-float is too accurate but it's probably plenty accurate for the purpose.

Forced floating zone would feel very unnatural and unrealistic, and drive away players rather than attract them.

I prefer to have floating zone. I think it feels more "in the game" not to have your head bolted to your weapon. However, I think both options should be viable based on preference and both methods should be workable no matter your preference.

And BIS would never enforce it so...

I cant with the floating either. Cant hit shit with it. Feels like i dont have any control at all. like me with a PS3 thumb control... Cant do shit with it.

Alex

You can't hit with floating zone while sighted?

I think there should be absolutely no crosshairs, and that there should be no floating zone. ArmA 2 also needs to have an aiming point that is not exactly aimed at the center of the screen. Let it have some play to move around loosely. Have the aim kind of like a Wii. When you start to get around the edges of the sceen the view turns.

Did you say that there should be no floating zone and then say "there should be a thing like this" which is basically a description of floating zone. Are you high?

[redmotion 10]

I'm all for more realism.

But these visual cues aren't cheats or against realism, they are ways to compensate the player for the naff PC interface (consoles being even naffer).

Personally, I think MORE visual cues are needed. I'd like an indicator that shows the direction where the last enemy gun shot sound came from and also an indicator to show the position where the last team call indicated where an enemy was. It then fades over time as the enemy might actually be moving.

I think a shortcut key that automatically reorientates the player in the direction of last indicated danger is needed aswell. (Because in reality, that would happen automatically).

Edited June 22, 2009 by redmotion

[galzohar 31]

Gun shot sound direction can be simulated realistically with a good sound system, so no visual indication is needed. Of course, not everyone have a good sound system, but then again not everyone have good graphic cards either. If you want to see well you get a good graphics card, and if you want to hear well you get a good sound card and speakers (I still need to get myself better speakers, mine suck). Visual indicators need to replace senses that cannot be felt via monitor+speakers - that is, the other 3 senses. That means visual indicators are needed for stuff like fatigue, mode of safety, on/off mode on the laser designator, stance (yes you can often tell visually but not always and it can get unrealistically anoying), whether you have an AT4 on your back or not etc.

The reason we "need" a bar instead of the current system is that the current system is done in a very exaggerated way just to compensate for not having a bar. IRL my awareness of my fatigue is independent of my ability to listen to my own breaths. Heck, IRL I can be very tired even long after my breath settled down. Bottom line is fatigue is something you feel, not something you hear/see. You can always have the option to turn the bar off if you really don't want to know your fatigue status - but the overdone breathing and blur are immersion killers.

[DennisK4 10]

Just make as many things as possible an option in the difficulty settings and let people play like they prefer.

Edited June 22, 2009 by DennisK4

[galzohar 31]

Except info that your character would've had IRL being removed is not a difficulty setting option. Difficulty setting options should be removing information your character should NOT have IRL, like friendly/enemy positions, crosshairs etc.

As a side note, AFAIK Insurgency (for source engine) had unsighted shooting with no crosshairs and no free floating zone, and it was too accurate. Here look at this RPG guide for that mod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K90I7nsCo-Q

If you're not used to it, then no crosshairs no floating zone works realistically. But with some practice you can make it too accurate, and thus a slight floating zone needs to be added to compensate, like in Infiltration for UT99 (game too old to find youtube videos).

[Alex72 1]

If you want the game to look like CoD/BF2 then go ahead and learn modding. Add all kinds of colourful bars and meters to the screen.

Alex

[Defunkt 431]

What Insurgency really lacks is not a floating zone but weapon sway; the gradual movement that represents your inability to hold an unbraced weapon perfectly still. The floating zone in ArmA appears to me rather to be an attempt to represent the time it takes to settle your front and rear sights in the first place but I won't use it as it's far to linear, you flip flop between two hard stops like a door slamming in the wind and only on one axis.

Believe it or not COD4 has magnificent control over such things for each individual weapon and separately for lowered and sighted positions and these can be enforced by a server by editing text files. Its 'floating zone' has momentum in that it decays non-linearly and has both a Yaw and Pitch component. The weapon sway has adjustments for amount, speed and player stance (so you can make it less when crouched and still less when prone). More than anyone here wanted to know about modding COD4 but I really wish ArmA could do this even nearly as well.

COD4 Sway/Swivel Settings: adsIdleAmount, adsIdleSpeed, adsSwayLerpSpeed, adsSwayMaxAngle, adsSwayHorizScale, adsSwayVertScale, adsSwayPitchScale, adsSwayYawScale, hipIdleAmount, hipIdleSpeed, swayLerpSpeed, swayMaxAngle, swayHorizScale, swayVertScale, swayPitchScale, swayYawScale, swayShellShockScale, idleCrouchFactor, idleProneFactor

[redmotion 10]

Having no HUD info on the screen DOES NOT constitute more realism for the average player with one monitor, a reasonable rig and stereo speakers/headphones. Its actually even less realistic.

I think a option/button to toggle the HUD on and off would satisfy most people.

I hate bars tbh. I think fatigue could easily be represented as vignetting (when the corners of a photograph appear slightly darkened). Injury could be similar but in red. That way it is visible by doesn't effect the view or distract the player.

Maybe the sound options should be much broader in scope and you can set the volume for individual sound sets. Like explosions, gunfire, talking, breathing, etc having a level of its own.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@Frederf:

Personally I prefer no floating zone. I could never fully appreciate this effect with OFP. Arma making it optional was a gift. Then again, I came from the UT99 scene (but I feel much better now, I really do) :) Some friends prefer to have it on, but for different reasons than yours: The screen updates less frequently, making it for a smoother experience, which can be essencial on a low end system.

I'm not a great fan of 'bars' either. Visual and audiable cues work great. I don't think I'd like vignetting though, maybe increased egde blur to simulate tunnel vision or something?

And no way would I like to have indicators showing where a shot came from. That's too simple, maybe except for a 'tutorial difficulty setting' that can't be enabled for online games.

Make all tools available to the new players that come from the action FPS games. Then play singleplayer with less help. Then move online where the least help is available. Most public servers today offer far too much help imho. But then again, it depends on the game mode and mission played:

Some games are pure player coops. I don't want help.

Others are player coops with AI help. I do want some help due to missing communication.

And no, not everything should be possible for the user to select freely. It gives undesired advantage to some players for obvious reasons. PvP with 3rd person? :D

Player should select his difficulty modes, but could be overridden by the mission, or set a maximum.

Mission could set its difficulty modes, but could be overridden by the server, or set a maximum.

And server could setup different difficulty modes based on game mode, or a difficulty mode setup for each mission in the mission list.

[galzohar 31]

What Insurgency really lacks is not a floating zone but weapon sway

Insurgency needs both. Sway alone will not make aiming better than not aiming.

COD4 had weapon sway, yes, but I hadn't noticed anything special about it other than that it was so insignificant you would rarely even notice it, and that the hold breath system (and the accompanying sound) felt like the soldier is on crack, just like the rest of the game feels like you're playing a soldier on crack (in a "good" way).

I wasn't saying everything should be optional, but if someone really doesn't want to see the tiny stamina bar that represents information you'd have instant access to IRL, then he should be able to turn it off.

Sounds and visuals simply don't do a good job representing stuff that you're not supposed to know via hearing/seeing IRL. They do the exact opposite of what the "no-HUD-no-matter-what" people want - they make you focus on those effects rather than on the actual picture and sound that represent what you'd actually see and hear IRL.

Blur is just terrible and is one of the most unrealistic features in the game, practically no matter what triggers it. Your eyesight just doesn't get that blurry IRL, and besides, it inappropriately adds up to the blur your RL eyes already get from your unblurred monitor. To implement blur realistically you'd have to do extensive research way beyond the scope of this game and then also make it behave differently for people with different systems. Just let the blur go, a game can be more than great without it, and will be better off without it.

Sound direction can be simulated with a good speaker/headphone setup, just like eyesight is simulated with a good GFX card and monitor. I did see games before that managed to show you the sound's general direction without letting you know exactly where it came from, but probably with enough practice you could pinpoint the fire using those indicators, which should not be possible. Sticking to sounds is more than enough.

Edited June 22, 2009 by galzohar

[frederf 0]

I'm not a big fan of the defocus or the motion blur in ArmA2. I mean, sure defocus right when a big tank shell lands beside us or I'm behind an AT-4 when it is shot, but not because I decided to move.

The motion blur is nice except for the fact it's about 4000% too much. Game devs have no concept of subtlety when introducing effects. Remember BF2 had ragdolls so grenades had to launch people 50m in the air or HL2 had HDR lighting so every room alternated between blinding and dark? No concept of subtlety. It's a shame that motion blur is probably going to be an on/off option instead of a slider which means I'll have to turn it all the way off instead of getting it just a little bit.

I do know that when I'm really out of breath my vision actually does darken due to lack of oxygen to my brain so that's not completely out of the question.

[galzohar 31]

I do know that when I'm really out of breath my vision actually does darken due to lack of oxygen to my brain so that's not completely out of the question.

You need to work on your physical fitness then ;)

[Defunkt 431]

Sounds and visuals simply don't do a good job representing stuff that you're not supposed to know via hearing/seeing IRL. They do the exact opposite of what the "no-HUD-no-matter-what" people want - they make you focus on those effects rather than on the actual picture and sound that represent what you'd actually see and hear IRL.

Again we'll have to agree to differ, I'm a no-HUD-no-matter-what kind of guy and they present the information exactly as I would have it. Better yet they do so in a suitably inexact manner so I can assess that I am very tired rather than 23% tired or that I am only a little hurt rather than two bars off full hit points or maybe only one bar away from death; which is just way too arcade.

[galzohar 31]

Except I had at time when I was shot so I could only crawl. Hitting the stand up would stand up properly (but have sway), but when I tried to move it dropped me down to the ground again. It would be nice if I had any way of telling what kind of injury I was having without making myself stand up and fall down a couple times. Let's face it - the visuals/audibles don't cut it, just like they don't cut it IRL.

[frederf 0]

Your legs should be bloody. Inspecting yourself shouldn't be too hard.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Have to agree with galzohar on this one. I admit I didn't try and I don't know yet what Arma2 brings to the table, but is inspecting your legs even possible without 3rd person? Also some models have/had bad configs by not including any damage/bloody versions.

[galzohar 31]

Yeah, not only it's usually not possible, but also IRL I don't need to look at my leg to be able to tell I'm not in a physical condition to walk. I just feel and know it. And things you feel have no good way to represent them, and no better ways than HUD representation.

Note that those HUD elements don't need to be immersion killers... They can be just a few pixels in size at the corner of your screen, and if you really want to play "with no feelings" you should be able to turn it off and not know that you can't walk/shoot/run or that your weapon is actually still on auto, and find out about those things when it's way too late.

[mutters 10]

Im all for realism but as much as you try to do in game,you can never give the player the real feel of awareness without a few aids.

[Tarmak 0]

Hi mate, I have just realised that the radar of armoured vehicles is very powerful because he discerns another armoured vehicles across a hill.

Strange no?

[diveplane 0]

Yeah, not only it's usually not possible, but also IRL I don't need to look at my leg to be able to tell I'm not in a physical condition to walk. I just feel and know it. And things you feel have no good way to represent them, and no better ways than HUD representation.

Note that those HUD elements don't need to be immersion killers... They can be just a few pixels in size at the corner of your screen, and if you really want to play "with no feelings" you should be able to turn it off and not know that you can't walk/shoot/run or that your weapon is actually still on auto, and find out about those things when it's way too late.

audio cues help as it already does this in the sim when your injured.

[galzohar 31]

The audio cues are exaggerated, sound ridicules, don't always properly represent your state and don't represent it in a realistic manner anyway. When I'm in pain, I feel it, I don't hear it. Anything that you can feel IRL even if you don't see/hear anything should be on the HUD.

[frederf 0]

I'd muuuuuuuuuch rather hear my character avatar go "ouch" instead of have a silly health bar on the UI.

[diveplane 0]

The audio cues are exaggerated, sound ridicules, don't always properly represent your state and don't represent it in a realistic manner anyway. When I'm in pain, I feel it, I don't hear it. Anything that you can feel IRL even if you don't see/hear anything should be on the HUD.

well least give us all the options to disable the magic enemy over here red dot hud , am not a hud fan boy . all that clutter on screen