ultra realistic mode

[galzohar 31]

If the crosshair doesn't tell you where your muzzle is pointing, where DOES it point? Not how can you tell where it's pointing, but how does the game tell where your barrel is pointing to determine where your shot flies?

Just went into the shooting range on easiest difficulty (I had been playing on hardest exclusively) and EVERY shot hits exactly where the crosshairs point. No reason whatsoever to use sights. Repeated on veteran - same result. 100% hit rate. The only thing you seem to not be able to do with crosshairs that you can do with the aimpoint is holding breath. So there is no conefire, which is unrealistic. Not that if there was conefire it would've been realistic, but it would've been better than having a sniper-crosshair. Best is to simply remove the crosshair, them choosing a way that'll make painting a dot in the center of your screen not turn you back into a crosshair-sniper.

[frederf 0]

The game tracks the muzzle direction at all times precisely. Try waving your gun around with crosshairs on and you can watch the little tick mark in the ]'[ track your muzzle's position. If you did the exact same motion with crosshairs off the muzzle would be in the exact same place at the exact same times. The only difference is whether the little visual mark is displayed on the monitor or not.

I agree that the default UI overlay crosshair is too accurate for unsighted. But that does not have to be the case! Imagine the following variations:

I bet you couldn't shoot as accurately with examples "A" and "B." If you can still shoot too well with those I can go back to the drawing board and make some that are even less helpful until we get to reality.

Best is not simply to remove the crosshair but to replace it with one that is not hugely prominent, ugly, or effective.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'd like to see crosshairs like this:

\    /



/    \

And no center dot. Size of crosshair increases with running speed and decreases with holding breath, but never accurate.

Due to being diagonal, it is harder to estimate the center as easily as it would be with vertical and horisontal ticks. Yet it works reasonable well in CQB (works also completely without crosshairs), even if floating zone is enabled.

I'd also like to see the size being different depending on class of weapon. Obvious CQB weapons should have smaller crosshairs than MGs and sniper weapons.

Something for the modders?

[frederf 0]

I actually made a 3-dot crosshair for ArmA1 where they were arranged so that none of their X or Y coordinates coincided with each other or the theoretical center point. This was animated with fatigue (where my above "fuzzy doughnut" is really hard to animate smoothly) and made it really hard to use as a "sniper crosshair."

I think we'll probably need 2-4 of these crosshairs to fully cover all the possible "but I didn't know I was on that fire mode" bases. The M16 and M203 crosshairs have got to be different as there is absolutely no visual indication that you're about to fire a M203 or an an M16

[galzohar 31]

I think it would be pretty impossible to have a crosshair that will make it hard enough to aim accurately unsighted without conefire. Just about any visualization you do will have a way for you to tell the center of it. Even absolutely no crosshair would have the "center of the screen" as a crosshair if you don't use floating zone. I know getting unsighted shooting working properly is hard, but so far all crosshair-based solutions I've seen had been much worse than any of the no-crosshair-based solutions I've seen. That is, Infiltration, COD4 hardcore and Arma 2 expert with no floating zone - all work better than Arma 2 crosshair, America's Army 2/3 crosshair or COD4's regular crosshair. That is compared to my experience of firing an M16 unsighted IRL.

Firing mode and weapon selected are stuff you just know and can feel, not something you remember or see. Therefore they should be displayed on the HUD.

[frederf 0]

Nonsense. Imagine 4 dots at the extreme corners of your screen, completely hopeless to aim with, right? 4 very tight dots at the center point would make it too easy. There must be somewhere in between that's the proper aiming performance.

Stop speaking of no-floating-zone as if it were some sort of solution!

There is also the the question of things like the LaserDesignator. Is it on or off? Trust me that you cannot always see the laser dot. The stupid diamond (which I guess is a circle in ArmA2) is the only real on/off indicator that the SOFLAM gets. Difficulty-option-crosshair-off simply breaks too many necessary functions. Making there be no visible rifle crosshair when crosshairs are on in the difficulty menu is of course a separate issue.

[galzohar 31]

Since you can probably feel the position of the laser designator's activator, that information should probably be on the HUD.

Firing with no crosshairs at all (using center of screen as "crosshair") can be too accurate with enough practice. A lot of practice, yes, but it's probably possible to make it more accurate than RL unsighted shooting ever will. That's why any crosshair will be too accurate without enforcing a pre-defined size of floating zone.

Think about it, the only crosshair that won't let you know exactly where your shot will hit is the one that is equivalent to no crosshair at all, and thus will not help you aim if you manually set your floating zone high. Realistic (no) crosshair, no conefire and user-defined floating zone simply can't co-exist, at least not by any method I've ever seen, heard of or read - here or elsewhere. You're welcome to suggest something that lets them co-exist.

[Rommel 2]

Personally, they should add a difficulty option for head bob rather then a custom option.

[galzohar 31]

Except head bob is probably not a true realism effect ;) It had been discussed to death that IRL your brain compensates for the bobbing: just try jumping your head around while reading the forms - easy. Try jupming the browser window around - and you can't read !@#$.

[frederf 0]

Since you can probably feel the position of the laser designator's activator, that information should probably be on the HUD.

I'm talking about on/off indication. One of the previous ArmA1 mods added an indicator on the bottom edge of the optics along with range and I think some other info. I don't have any problem with no crosshair on the SOFLAM for aiming (optics are ample, it's not like you CQB with a SOFLAM), just that without some extra help the crosshair is the only on/off indication you have.

Firing with no crosshairs at all (using center of screen as "crosshair") can be too accurate with enough practice. A lot of practice, yes, but it's probably possible to make it more accurate than RL unsighted shooting ever will. That's why any crosshair will be too accurate without enforcing a pre-defined size of floating zone.

I could see a no-crosshair 0-float-zone unsighted shooting performance being better than such in real life, certainly. Maybe minFloatSize could be a difficulty parameter?

the only crosshair that won't let you know exactly where your shot will hit is the one that is equivalent to no crosshair at all

I disagree. A "fuzzy" crosshair is not equivalent to no crosshair and is not equivalent to a precise crosshair. They are three separate states. I think at the worst case scenario with a fuzzy crosshair and 0-float-zone together will be identical in performance to no crosshair and 0-float-zone.

I think that once you get to 0-float-zone it doesn't matter much fuzzy crosshair or none for aiming performance so why not just have fuzzy crosshair for all? The crosshair can still be used for muzzle identification which floating zone has nothing to do with.

[galzohar 31]

I could see a no-crosshair 0-float-zone unsighted shooting performance being better than such in real life, certainly. Maybe minFloatSize could be a difficulty parameter?

This is basically what I was saying. At least, this is the best method I've seen so far.

With 0 floating zone you're too accurate without even needing a crosshair. With a big floating zone, if you have a crosshair that can actually tell you what part of the floating zone your barrel is pointing at, you're at least as accurate as the 0-floating-zone-no-crosshair guy. If the crosshair can't tell you that, then it's completely useless.

You can't really go in between. Either it tells you what part of the floating zone you're at, which is too accurate, or it doesn't tell you anything in which case it's useless and as good as having no crosshair. At least with enough practice all crosshairs are either the first or the latter, never in between. The only thing you can change is the amount of practice needed to use it in a too accurate manner.

If you're going to have a useless crosshair, might as well go with no crosshair at all for the sake of realism.

The laser designator simply needs a realistic on/off indicator that is unrelated to the crosshair. I've never used one IRL, but if there's an indicator on the display it should be displayed in game, and if there isn't, it should be displayed on the HUD as you can probably feel it with your finger - just like you can feel your firing mode (semi/burst/auto) and whether you're firing an m203 or 5.56.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I play without crosshairs (for rifles) via addon. I'm not using floating zone. I'm usually (but not always, depends on the 'oh shit' factor) able to hit a very close target 'from the hip', but obviously I'm not a very good shot without going into sights.

Those that play with floating zone should have the same possibility, shooting from the hip in a general direction. But not accurately hitting targets at 200m +. I do believe that angled bars with a decent size (in an oval fashion instead of circular) makes it too cumbersome to use for accurate aiming to make it worthwhile. If you really spend some time, then maybe, but that you could possibly do with the real gun as well?

[frederf 0]

With 0 floating zone you're too accurate without even needing a crosshair.

I'll agree to that. There's not much I can do about that unless float zone is somehow enforced.

With a big floating zone, if you have a crosshair that can actually tell you what part of the floating zone your barrel is pointing at, you're at least as accurate as the 0-floating-zone-no-crosshair guy. If the crosshair can't tell you that, then it's completely useless.

The crosshairless 0-float guy and the fuzzy-crosshaired float guy would probably have similar unsighted aiming performance. I could see that.

You can't really go in between. Either it tells you what part of the floating zone you're at, which is too accurate, or it doesn't tell you anything in which case it's useless and as good as having no crosshair.

Strongly disagree With a fuzzy crosshair "knowing" where your muzzle is pointed is not a simple Boolean perfect knowledge-no knowledge. With a fuzzy crosshair you have to mentally estimate the center point which will not be perfect. Also without the muzzle tick mark the effects of recoil are hidden visually.

If you're going to have a useless crosshair, might as well go with no crosshair at all for the sake of realism.

I really can't subscribe to your polarized view about crosshairs or from the idea that no-crosshairs necessarily and best represents realism.

The laser designator simply needs a realistic on/off indicator that is unrelated to the crosshair. I've never used one IRL, but if there's an indicator on the display it should be displayed in game, and if there isn't, it should be displayed on the HUD as you can probably feel it with your finger - just like you can feel your firing mode (semi/burst/auto) and whether you're firing an m203 or 5.56.

Aye, mod makers have tackled that problem well. It's only unfortunate that BIS isn't adopting that method. Weapon and fire mode should be on the 2D GUI (which I refuse to confuse with "HUD" which is a very specific other concept) at least until such a time as we get a better way to inform the player.

I've always thought that ArmA should have a separate "change fire mode selector" key and that would play a little animation where your character would tilt his rifle to the side and it would make a "click" sound and the word "Semi" "Auto" "Safe" whatever would flash at the center bottom of the screen.

If you had separate fuzzy crosshairs for M16 and M203 muzzles then you wouldn't need a 2D GUI info about it, it would be obvious from the shape.

[Defunkt 431]

No crosshairs for me thank you, doesn't matter how they're rationalised or justified, it would impact negatively on my immersion. I'd like it if there was more visual feedback from the first person weapon position/animation but I'll make do without if needs be.

[frederf 0]

Aye, that's the ideal. 2D GUI is always a necessary evil that's easier to code than the full-on 3D version of the indication.

[galzohar 31]

Besides, real soldiers don't really do all of these things when they flip their safety. It's a very quick action (as quick as raising your weapon to shoot), and doesn't really cause the rifle to move in any noticeable way. You never ever look at your safety.

[frederf 0]

Yeah, I was gunna mention it in the same breath as my idea. I know it's second nature to flip from SAFE to SEMI even while peering focused through an ACOG optic. However until ArmA starts to embrace the concept of a weapon safety, altering the fire mode selector would be pretty darn rare.

I'm just remembering other games that did it the way I described and it seemed like a very natural feedback mechanism for the player. I understand it's not the same as real life. Actually, just the click sound and the quick pop up text should be enough for a video game.

[Defunkt 431]

@galzohar: Possibly but given it's desirable to acknowledge/communicate the change (and we can't do touch) a very slight movement accompanied with a faint *click* would be a very acceptable indicator IMO.

---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

In fact, even better than a text message telling you what you've switched to, distinguish instead with an alternate *click-click* when you've cycled through to semi again. So, starting from semi one *click* to burst, from burst one *click* to auto, from auto a double *click-click* back to semi simulating the move through two positions and also serving to remind you what you're on in a more evocative/immersive manner than a text message.

[galzohar 31]

The idea is that since you can feel it IRL, it should be on the HUD in game. That's at least how I see realism in gaming...

"Safe" of course doesn't need modeling, since swaping right before you pull the trigger is second nature and cannot realistically be modeled - you can just assume your virtual soldier knows exactly when you want to pull the trigger and unsafes the weapon right before that (or just keeps it unsafe constantly, works just as well).

[Defunkt 431]

By that rational when your character is tired you'd see an indicator on your HUD instead of the (IMO much better) heavy breathing sound. It's well and good using the 2D HUD to present things we would actually know but obviously we would never actually see text and icons floating in front of us so it's win-lose. Always better (according to my own pursuit for immersion) to find a way to present the same information with a 3D visual or audio cue, while 3D visuals can be labour intensive to implement audio is not.

[galzohar 31]

Unless you have to exaggerate that 3d or audio queue to make it do what it's meant to do, which is exactly what they did with the breathing. I'd rather have a small stamina bar somewhere while keeping the breathing sounds more humanly realistic. I'd also rather have a bit too much on the hud rather than too little, as long as it's not giving me any information that I SHOULD NOT have, such as magazine ammo count, enemy/friendly locations etc.

[Defunkt 431]

I'd sooner an exaggerated natural response (though I don't believe the heavy breathing is) than a completely unnatural HUD indicator. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

[frederf 0]

Heavy breathing, slightly more head bob and motion blur, and even futzing with some aperture settings and screen edge effects should be all that's needed for stamina status. If there's a crosshair that animates narrow/wide then that too. There's so many visual and audio elements available other than the 2D GUI layer that it'd be a shame to resort to it so quickly.

[Alex72 1]

I think ARMA2's breathing is great. Varied and quite realistic. Why need a bar? Urgh shivers just thinking about bars. Back to mario bros...

Clean screen with sound/visual qeues such as sway and blur - awesomeness. BIS managed to do what no one have before. Cheap easy-way-out BS bars no thanks.

My opinion ofcourse.

And it stands hard here when it comes to my favourite game. :D

EDIT: Clean screen gives more immersion as well imo. Bars make you look at them instead of maintaining eyes where they should be - on the awesome graphics scanning for bad guys. (bit dramatic maybe but... Thats how i feel). We worked hard to get NOTHING in the image in ArmA1, and now you want to bring back HUD's? Step off! :D

Alex

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'll agree to that. There's not much I can do about that unless float zone is somehow enforced.

How on earth is no crosshairs on no float too accurate? It makes you able to blast off a few rounds in panic when an enemy suddenly appears 5 meters in front of you, nothing more. Not like you can use it for any kind of aiming or anything.

Forced floating zone would feel very unnatural and unrealistic, and drive away players rather than attract them. To me this would be just as bad (possibly worse) as enforced crosshairs like on some ACE servers today.