IMMORTAL FORTRESS. a look inside Chechenia's warrior culture

[Baff1 0]

Yes i do understand well that Religion is often a pretext of civil war, but in Russia / former Soviet republics things are more complex. Georgian for example are Christian. It's more a matter of people wanting to get rid off Moscow's influence.

The civil war in Ireland was also about wanting to get rid of British rule.

The Catholics aren't killing the Protestants because their religion tells them to, it is because they want seperatism from Britain and the Protestants do not.

Some Catholics want union. Some Protestants want separation, but the political divide broadly mirrors the religion. Because the religion broadly mirrors the historic factionalism of that society.

It's complex too, but the same old patterns are seen repeating all over. Yugoslavia I think should make a better comparison.

From what I am reading the Chechen battalions fighting in Georgia, fought the Russians in the first Chechen War, then changed sides and fought with them in the second Chechen War and are now part of the 58th Army.

Even the russians are claiming 7 planes, while georgians are claiming 12 planes. You're claiming 4 planes how? Losing that many planes isn't the smallest number, considering you're going against a beggars army. Gori fell, but they still managed to stall it for a bit.

You don't deploy a division in 24 hours. 20000 troops and 150 tanks aren't that easy to move about. It's not a one two three operation.

It was still an easy win, but it could've gone a bit better.

The Russian claim 4 aircraft 3 CAS jets. (The ones from Flashpoint) and a big supersonic bomber, the Tupovlev. The Georgians claim 21.

Perhaps they included artillery drones.

I didn't hear about the Russians being stalled at Gori. When they got there it was a ghost town, the Georgians had all fled.

That's what I heard.

The Georgian government had been saying how they had been fighting Russians there for two days, but U.S. military observers present at the time said didn't see any of it. No Russians, no fighting. CNN reporters also present in Gori at the time said the same.

(That was just the Georgians trying to drag the rest of the world into the war. ZOMG the Russians are attacking they are killing us all!!!!!

The imaginary Russians. The ones that no one else could see).

The Georgians troops all routed and rather than get killed by airstrikes, they had abandoned all their military equipment.

When the Russians moved to secure all this gear from all the military bases, Gori was deserted. Even the police were gone. (You can look up that Youtube of them driving their BMP's through the empty police cars at the abandoned roadblock, that's Gori). They had to take over the policing to prevent more ethnic cleansing/looting etc.

And yes the Russians do deploy a division in 24 hours.

Don't you remember Kosovo airport?

They have a history of rapid deployments. Their NATO strategy revolved around being able to move their armies into close range with enemy cities or armies fast enough not to get nuked. They are the undisputed masters of rapid deployment. Their whole military is geared up for this. It's what they do best.

It's not like they had far to travel or their forces in the region weren't on alert.

That their peacekeepers hadn't reported the recent unrest and RPG attacks on the Georgian peacekeepers.

Or that Georgian forces hadn't been shooting down their UAV's for the previous months.

Or they hadn't recently fought a war there before, or they didn't know that the President of Georgia had promised to invade North Ossetia as an election manifesto.

I don't suppose it really came as such a huge surprise to them.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Baff1

[-Snafu- 77]

The chance of Georgia winning was very small, Russia's victory was almost inevitable but to label it as "easy" overlooks the deficiencies experienced.

Despite the rapid victory, the war itself exposed fundamental weaknesses and shortcomings in Russia’s armed forces...

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/09spring/mcdermott.pdf

However, there is no doubt that the Russian forces have advanced far beyond the disorganisation of the 1990s after the collapse of the USSR.

Russian mobility was arguably far superior to that seen in previous conflicts. Within 24 hours the deployed forces almost doubled in size even though Russia could not begin an immediate airlift, owing to Georgian air defenses.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/09spring/mcdermott.pdf

Russia did win but they lost an awful lot of planes for such a short operation.

"It was remarkable that they shot down a number of Russian fighters, which Russia probably did not expect," said Lieutenant-Colonel Dr. Marcel de Haas, Russia and security expert at the Netherlands Institute of International Relations Clingendael.

http://www.javno.com/en-world/georgia-war-shows-russian-army-strong-but-flawed_174011

There was also a lack of sophistication during the opeartion unlike Western armies.

"Initial reconnaissance was difficult," Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of Russia's General Staff, told Reuters. "We will be introducing serious changes, the use of unmanned aerial vehicles, for example."

http://www.javno.com/en-world/georgia-war-shows-russian-army-strong-but-flawed_174011

Communication systems and electronic warfare assets employed by commanders and frontline forces were obsolete, in many cases “unchanged since Soviet times.†The 58th Army commander, Lieutenant-General Anatoliy Khrulev, was reported to have communicated with his forces in the midst of combat via a satellite phone borrowed from a journalist, since communication between units was unavailable.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/09spring/mcdermott.pdf

A Google search will reveal a number of articles dealing with the performance of the Russian military. Here are a few:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/09spring/mcdermott.pdf

http://www.javno.com/en-world/georgia-war-shows-russian-army-strong-but-flawed_174011

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/assault-on-georgia-exclusive-military-analysis-on-south-ossetia-conflict.htm

However, we are way off topic.

[MehMan 0]

According to Moscow Defense Brief they lost 7 aircraft, 4 su-25s, 2 su-24s and 1 Tu-22.

But enough of this. They did win in the end, my opinion is still the same(that is that a western nation could've done the same with less troops and no aircraft losses).

[olro 0]

Just translated, still waiting for part 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErUkDtBXsYY

..and I think this was lost in the thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBzzjk3z5A&feature=channel

Edited May 17, 2009 by olro

[Baff1 0]

Just translated, still waiting for part 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErUkDtBXsYY

Thank for the great translations Mr.

It's all very intresting to me.

That's some dreadful tactics they were using. I'd very much like to see how they did it the second time round. What lessons they had learnt. (Perhaps it is as simple as don't forgot to pay your locally raised garrisions on time).

Intresting to see the pontoon bridge come out. I like a bit of mobility.

According to Moscow Defense Brief they lost 7 aircraft, 4 su-25s, 2 su-24s and 1 Tu-22.

But enough of this. They did win in the end, my opinion is still the same(that is that a western nation could've done the same with less troops and no aircraft losses).

Moscow Times has it at 4. That's my regular Russian paper. It's western owned and run. I prefer their intelligence.

Moscow Defence Brief suggests there may have been 3 more planes shot down, but confirms the four only.

There were a lot of imaginary Russians in that campaign. So much so that hearsay without confirmation falls on my deaf ears.

It's not beyond the realms of my imagination that other Russian planes were shot down. The same anti-aircraft systems have shot down F-117 stealth bombers, Chinooks, Apaches, Lynx, Kiowa, Hercules, AV8 Harriers and F16's in the past.

It's the mobiles that present the biggest danger in my opinion.

Western nations lost plenty of aircraft over Kosovo. (43).

The European terrain is somewhat different to Iraq, as are the weather conditions, as are the anti-aircraft systems you can expect to find in ex Cold War militaries.

In Kosovo NATO forces did not achieve air domination, with the Serbian airforce flying missions against them all through the conflict. The U.S. airforce even refused to fly many of the more dangerous combat missions, as did their Apache helicopter forces because of their high loses (Clinton adminstration!).

If we continue with our Kosovo comparison we will see that Western forces were unable to deploy in the overwhelming force required to utterly crush all resistance or respond quickly before local atrocities could become regional genocides, and although like in the Shock and Awe assault on Iraq, the invasion was a success, the population was not pacified. The civil war not stopped in it's tracks and it continued to smoulder for a long time to come with the core of the Serbian military unbowed and intact.

I put it to you that western forces haven't provided any better example of peacekeeping operations in the ex Soviet states. Western forces could do much better? History begs to differ.

If we were to compare the Ossetian intervention with the one in Chechen, in Olro's video's, we can see exactly how much of a great success the Gerogian one was. What could have gone wrong, that didn't.

I don't think the Russians deployed their best gear or their finest troops. I don't think they thought this was a war worthy of wasting their best kit on.

Clearly they used all their oldest stocks of armour.

They have certainly identified shortfalls in their equipment and tactics as a result of the intervention.

The proof is in the pudding. The West has intrests in Georgia. The pipeline from Turkey (which I have shares in) is strategically important and our ally Georgia has been seeking and been encouraged to form a mutual defence pact with us.

Could we do better than the Russians?

No. We didn't. A couple of U.S. ships turned up near the end of week and we shipped, our allies, the Georgian forces back from Iraq after 3 days. That's what we managed to do.

Not so impressive.

Western forces couldn't do anything about it at all.

Prevaricating and big talk is just that.

We were powerless. It is an area beyond the scope of our military capability.

Russia is the guarentor of regional security in the Caucauses. Like it or not.

They can do it, no one else can.

Round there, they are the world police.

They did a great job. Full credit to them.

Anyone who could have done better, would have done better. No one did.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Baff1

[NSX 8]

I don't think the Russians deployed their best gear or their finest troops.

True, but now we're deploying 2 very well equipped armored brigades in Abkhazia and SO. Brigade in Gadauta just received about 60 freshly made T90As, while SO group of forces receive T72BA, which is a deep modernization of T72As/Bs. Georgia has to do impossible to make a nasty and sudden strike this time.

About poor AA defences...Well, they were not so poor, as you may think. We didn't expect Buk-M1 launchers to be deployed in Georgia (they were sold by Ukraine). Tu-22M was not actually a bomber, but an old machine, remade to do aerial reconaissance (yes, our army lacks UAVs, but that's not for long). Also Georgia is rumored to has S-200 very long range AA systems, so I actually surprised why our casulties were so low.

And about effectiveness of operation...well, it was the biggest disgrace of their military, I guess. Spetsnaz in Poti sank their missile boats, while motorifle troops captured so many equipment in Gori, that you can easily arm a motorifle brigade with it (just look at 60 captured tanks, among which 40 (probably Israeli upgraded Sim-1 tanks) were preserved and serve as machines of RA.

Edited May 19, 2009 by NSX

[Baff1 0]

They are better equiped now! lol.

It's a clipped photo, it says "Uncle Sam thanks for uniforms for Russian Airborne".

Rofl.

And here they are wearing them!

They got some Humvee's too.

I hear the Russian army has invested in socks.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Baff1

[Dwarden 1124]

so the point of raids on Georgia was to fill new uniforms gap ... oh now it all give sense :) ;)

[MehMan 0]

What the hell? I hope that was just for taking pictures...

[Baff1 0]

No mate, spoils of war. They looted all the Georgian barracks (and the naval bases too. Thats were they got the USMC Humvee's).

That wasn't a top notch Russian Army that invaded, it was a more poorly equiped regional force. They all have mismatched uniforms. (And hankerchiefs for socks!).

The two Chechen battalions wore white rags tied round their arms. Since none of the armies could be distinguished by uniform alone.

Veterans are smart!

They looted a load of Georgian BMP's for themselves. You'll recognise them in photo's, they are the ones with all the graffitti on.

These guys came to war with Ak 47's and went home with something better.

These are the very same battalions that did for the Russians in the first Chechen War. "Vostok" and er.. the other one. Lol.

Scarey chaps. Mercenaries.

Hopefully they are all<100kb or I'm going to get bitten.

@ NSX I saw some photoes of a destroyed AA radar in Georgia. Looked much like the ones on the S 300

Edited May 21, 2009 by Baff1

[MehMan 0]

Isn't it a bit silly to wear your enemy's camo in a war zone?

[Baff1 0]

Not as silly as it was for the enemy.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Baff1

[olro 0]

More translations from Grozny assault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jcmW8j80JY&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

[Second 0]

Russians in general seems to have quite loose policy on uniforms, i believe some of units are even encouraged to get various uniforms. White cloth in arm works well, even better than trusting to that dirty uniform, which from even close range might not be clearly different from enemy uniform. And besides it's quite common that there are uniforms which basically should be all 100% same, but dependant of manufacturer there can be tens of variations in colors and patterns. Our army had so-called M/62 outfit, to which it was nearly impossible to get even closely same looking pants and jacket, if that outfit didn't come directly from factor.