The us has never lost a war

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Ah yes i forgot that the BBC is a receptacle for the brotherhood of ultra liberal terrorist befrienders where Arab anti semetism goes unchallenged by the hapless and naive journalists who strive to maintain such outdated 'ideological indoctrinations' as impartiality and 'reporting the facts'

thanks for reminding me...

[Longinius 1]

Yes, and I am also happy to know that the reasons I think the US does fucked up things sometimes is because of communist influence. Especially from the French.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Damn i never noticed you there before Damage....... i guess you must have done them some .....favours huh?

(......Wha?.ive been here to long,time for a nice cold beer )

aahhhhh

[Damage Inc 0]

Well it was originally AndOne but I thought I'd rather like to see my name in there

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Feb. 28 2002,16:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">thanks for reminding me...<span id='postcolor'>

Any time.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 28 2002,15:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, and I am also happy to know that the reasons I think the US does fucked up things sometimes is because of communist influence. Especially from the French.<span id='postcolor'>

?????

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Feb. 28 2002,16:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">?????<span id='postcolor'>

Read the op-ed I referred to before.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Actually it would probably be best if he didnt

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 28 2002,09:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I see Americans often saying "We are the greatest. We can do whatever we want. Kill all muslims. We rule" or stuff along that line. Besides that, which countries in the west can Americans wine on? Which countries effect the American culture in a negative way and create problems that highly effect Americans?<span id='postcolor'>

And I see just as many Europeans saying "America is stupid" "America is evil" and "Kill all muslims" as well. I fyou go by what you see on here or assume all Americans are like that that is just as ignorant as the Americans that are saying that BS. Yeah I like my country, yes I'm proud to be an American, if thats so wrong just deal with it. Just because Europeans have a bad taste in their mouth about nationalism and patriotism (too very different things), don't assume its evil for us. Many of your complaints are based on your own cultural upbringing and education, to try apply them to the US (I think we all agree a completely different culture), is as I said, just as ignorant. It is showing a superiority complex that you claim you don't have ("Your culture is wrong and/or stupid. OUR way is this way and better.") If you are sick of McDonalds (as an example) invading small town Germany/Finland/Sweden/France....then DON'T EAT THERE!

I assume by the "create problems that highly effect" you are speaking of the presently on going War On Terrorism and All Who Piss Us Off. In case it wasn't clear, the Americans are quick to anger and quick to extract revenge. But I can think of one culture that causes problems for the Americans (perhaps not culture...more like..."hands off approach"?)

//climbs into flame suit and buckles in//

One thing I have noticed as far as terrorism is concerned...a lot of terrorists or anti-american extremists seem to center around Germany (this is NOT an attack per se on Germany...merely an observation). I can site a number of plane bombs that originated in Germany...usually Frankfurt whos airport is RIGHT across the flightline from Rhein-Main AFB where I lived for awhile....almost every hijacker of 9/11 was "moderate" by standards on all accounts...even the lead hijacker..UNTIL they came to Germany to study at the university....which is where they hooked up with extremist groups. Now why is that? Does Germany have a large Middle Eastern population (when I lived in England always though England had a LOT more)? Why is it many acts seem to originate (or at least partly) in Germany?

//buckles in...waits for Alberts scathing reply//

[Damage Inc 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Feb. 28 2002,16:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 28 2002,09:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I see Americans often saying "We are the greatest. We can do whatever we want. Kill all muslims. We rule" or stuff along that line. Besides that, which countries in the west can Americans wine on? Which countries effect the American culture in a negative way and create problems that highly effect Americans?<span id='postcolor'>

And I see just as many Europeans saying "America is stupid" "America is evil" and "Kill all muslims" as well.<span id='postcolor'>

Stupidity is global.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Feb. 28 2002,16:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ah yes i forgot that the BBC is a receptacle for the brotherhood of ultra liberal terrorist befrienders where Arab anti semetism goes unchallenged by the hapless and naive journalists who strive to maintain such outdated 'ideological indoctrinations' as impartiality and 'reporting the facts'<span id='postcolor'>

"Surely it is time that our national broadcasters, not just, but including the BBC, stopped describing Hamas and Jihad with such euphemisms as radical and militant. Let us call things what they are: they are terrorist organizations... Such fudging of what Hamas or Islamic Jihad are confers some sort of legitimacy on people who are terrorists."

British Tory leader, Iain Duncan Smith, December 2001

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Damage Inc @ Feb. 28 2002,16:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Stupidity is global.<span id='postcolor'>

and duty free!

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Damage Inc @ Feb. 28 2002,15:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Feb. 28 2002,16:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 28 2002,09:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I see Americans often saying "We are the greatest. We can do whatever we want. Kill all muslims. We rule" or stuff along that line. Besides that, which countries in the west can Americans wine on? Which countries effect the American culture in a negative way and create problems that highly effect Americans?<span id='postcolor'>

And I see just as many Europeans saying "America is stupid" "America is evil" and "Kill all muslims" as well.<span id='postcolor'>

Stupidity is global.<span id='postcolor'>

...and sometimes seems contagious...

But it just seems to this humble lowly state worker, that many people here judge America, like Longinus said, by what few Americans they know say, or some dumb ass kid says on a game forum. They use that to blanket statement all Americans. But if an American does the same about Europeans he/she is suddenly ignorant or stupid or *insert derogatory comment here*

Oh and for the record...I think we should stop greenhouse gas emmisions or at least significantly reduce them. But I also know until viable options become cheap, profitable, and easily marketable...most Americans ain't gonna go for it...

JESUS I HATE THOSE BIG "SUVs"....stupidest things ever.....course when the comet hits then I'll be wishing for one... :|

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

Avon-

I have heard members of Hamas etc referred to as terrorists on the BBC (certainly those who commit murderous bombings against civilians are), the fact that they (or their organisations) are also reffered to as radicals and militants does not make a case for some kind of anti Israeli bias.

The IRA is not mentioned as a terrorist organisation on the BBC despite the fact that a splinter group( Real IRA) only recently blew up a carbomb outside the BBC central offices it was- 'dissident Irish republicans.'

It may seem at first glance like PC gone mad but i prefer this style of reporting to opinions masquerading as news

The viewer may make his or her own mind about what constitutes terrorism (it is a murky area)

according to some definitions you could call Israeli reprisals against Palestinians 'Terrorism', does that mean the BBC should call the Israeli government terrorists?

Of course not, that would be biased

anyway

when will that 'self-inflated' and would-be guardian of culture come and make his case on behalf of Frenchman everywhere?

hhhhmm this threads got out of control...

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Feb. 28 2002,17:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The IRA is not mentioned as a terrorist organisation on the BBC despite the fact that a splinter group( Real IRA) only recently blew up a carbomb outside the BBC central offices it was-   'dissident Irish republicans.'<span id='postcolor'>

The BBC must have changed their tune.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

interesting stuff. Certainly they(Hamas et al.) HAVE been referred to as terrorists by reporters on the scene,(+ documentaries etc) as to the rules for 'studio' newspeople in London or wherever, i never listen to what those uninteresting puppets say anyway

[TheOmega 0]

Well i have no idea how this started but the late post from Akira took my attention.

Hmm... Germany yes... central position. Good linkages with the US and to other places. Britain another... stategic importance for terrorist passageways. I like that u pointed that out. Well to beat terrorists you have to think as one. Just u stand on... the other side... babylon... com'seyla.

Americans are diversified. Self proud... naive... most. Young nation... self centered, egoistic... but good friends. Typical of teenagers full of vigorance. Also common with acne. Squeeze the pimples and pus comes out. Disgusting analogy.

But its also the home of the colgate smiles and braces... perfection... of... the free to be so.

But on the other side it has some Great benefits. Hollywood, jeans, burgers if u like em, internet, etc. Not all americans agree with their governament. And being free to do so is important. And i dont know of any unbiased, perfect governament... so why should american gov be any different. American-Western Democracy is not the perfect solution... recently it found out it was flawed... to american amazement.

Quite frankly, i respect the US of A for several reasons. But being a supporter and friend does make me in a better position to criticize its negative points. Unfortunately policy is... has to be... pragmatic. Imediatism is prioritary... and well... self interest is felt with who the most has the capacity to go about acheiving it. Good ol' military pragmatism... for the good and bad. What comes after is not in the plans...

Kinda like a dog...

Like every big friendly dog it can throw you to the ground when saying hello as well as breaking the room in the process. U do not want to piss it off either, being it a big dog. Like every dog, its not also very bright most of the time until it is trained into something with a stick. However its nature is to bark at everyone... But that doesnt mean i dont like dogs... love em hot and with ketchup. Problem is the dog has the big stick... big dog... big stick... woops... nice doggy.

Hushpuppy...

Ok... bad analogy. I agree... but it lightens this up.

-------------------------

Actually Nationalism and patriotism are NOT completely different things. Thats why they are easily confused. You need a definition i sense... well patriotism can be defined to a

loyalty to institutions, law and society.

Nationalism can coincide, but has a higher dimension. It corresponds also and more to a sense of belonging of a culturaly based homeland. Can coincide with a state... but rarely does, rather to a undefined territory which can correspond to the aspirations, tradition, language, history of an ethnic group. Mostly it makes what states are today or where, and borders defined around that space. If not, well wars can make for land possession too... lots of that... that still are reflections of this.

Nationalism comes out of the French Revolution... and is a legitimate aspiration out of Tyranny, monarchies or any abuse of power of a few towards the many. Abuse is the keyword here... important. Nationalism was the basis for modern democracies. Dont mock it too fast... its in the essence of the American and French Revolutions. Same time period. Statue of Liberty... well its also in France. Read its history... it represents this issue.

However, the point is that any abuse of causes conflict. National-Socialism, (a contradiction in terms-the idea of fatherland), Zionism (return to Zion-the motherland) are similar in concept. Problem is not the concept... its the abuse of it. Expansion of abuse... gives u imperialism, fascism, fundamentalism...

Be it abuse of a state, be it abuse of a goverment, be it abuse of a small group of ppl - eg: terrorists also- towards others, call it abuse-"ism" is what has made Human rights be in the international agenda. Force should not... cannot be in the central issue of making any society into being... it only works eventually if all opposition is eliminated. To the point of human extinction at its highest.This is too serious to be held lightly.

European Enlightenment has given Nationalism as well as Humanism. Humanism can also be misused into abuse too, when in fact its more of something else. Europe has just had more experience in these matters than the rest. Thats what differs... all have a contribution. Duty free or taxed. Arrgghh... there's the market for you. And that one does not regulate on intelligence nor heart.

[Akira 0]

Oh I wasn't mocking patriotism or nationalism by far. I am for one patriotic, and some would say here even nationalist. I view them as on the same coin, but as you said, both can be misused.

Many on here equate nationalism with Nazism, and thus view it as an undeniably bad thing. That if you are a nationalist, this is tantamount to being rascist/prejudiced etc etc.

And I don't agree with this view, which is why I brought it up. You can be patriotic without being a nationalist, you can be nationalist without necessarily being patriotic, and you can be both....and in fact that is what you will find most commonly.

I base patriotism on a love of your country obviously. Nationalism has elements of patriotism, and extends to things cultural, social, economic, and political. But as you pointed out, and as I did too, nationalism like all things can be taken to the extreme, where nationalism is an exclusion and rejection of all that is not of your kind or country. That I agree is wrong.

But many here, as stated, view it immediately on the extreme, and that I can't agree with....

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I agree with some of what TheOmega says(even if he has a strange way of putting things )

in that there is no clear seperation between patriotism and nationalism

according to Dictionary.com

Patriotism

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

Nationalism

1-*Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2*-The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3*-Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

The second definition of nationalism certainly seems to be a major dividing line between the EU and the US

Most continental europeans would regard that as a 'bad' kind of nationalism.

[DodgeME 0]

Well the Americans could easily win the war if it wasn't for media. People wanted the war to stop so it because of it the pulled out. Plz the Charlies didn't have a chance in hell.

About the Talibans they were kicked just by button pushing

[Akira 0]

Look out for Charlie! Up in the trees!

[TheOmega 0]

Well im glad to hear it, NoImNotJohnWayne.

Akiro probably i should have used "knocking" instead.

Ok, here is more of something to keep you guys busy.

Simply put it an Identity issue at 2 levels. Country based and Nation based. When nation and country are identical then the 2 concepts overlap.

Other manifestations of course as u pointed out is a disregard of anything that does not conform to nationhood. Independance complex...Xenophobia. Well phobia or "fear" is an euphemism... but yes... if the manifestation of fear is aggressive or violent towards outsiders. Then aggressive Nationalisms is what u mean. Not Nationalism on its own. There an abuse issue again. Just like Democracies, Popular Democracies and muscled Democracies. The last 2 are of an abusive kind, 1 of words (popular democracies=communist regimes) the other of authority. See my point.

It not how much power one has, is what he does with it that sets its judgement... and legitimacy.

Ok... Nazism... or short for National Socialism is not at all coherant. Its just fascism. National and Socialism are opposites. One is National... the other International. One is exclusive... the other inclusive. One CAN be racist (ah and the only race i know of is the Humankind Race...now there are ethnical subgroups - wrong concepts again to misuse)... the other SHOULD be humanist.

It should rather read "social nationalism" if u want a literal interpretation of the discourse. Probably its a wrong translation from german.

Stupid concept of wording... doesnt mean jack except BS to clog your brains. Well stupidity does come free of charge... but with terrible amount of interest attached.

Nazism is an aggressive form of nationalism. The nation that was claimed was all german speaking peoples. Why? To gain back the lost territory from the IWW. Policy. And to gain independance and acheive full potential... more land was needed, not only any land... but land that held resources and german speaking population. Policy again.

Just bollocks... France was not german speaking territory. And it went from german language to teutonic germanic origin people. So Russia and Norway... where ok... for them that is... ask any norweigan or russian and hell give u a different opinion.

But this is used for policy interests. Propaganda was in fact something that was invented in its massified form at this time.

This Hitler culture based idea is reminiscent of the Teutonic Alliance that actually brought the Roman Empire down. Cracked Europe for centuries since Roman era... And in itself proclaimed a similar Empire. See... cultural in its origin. Which in substance is a civilizational crack.

His ally and greatest "friend", Benito Mussolini... also fascist... but remembering the good ol' days of the Roman Empire... wierd... shoulda go against each other if it made sense.

Well i dont want to confuse you, im sure you get my point by now. This all is bollocks. Pure and simple. Culture used for political purposes. Mmmm... kinda same with a different twist of lemon tdy...

----------------------------

Ok... another interesting point Wayne. Yes i agree on that 2nd point. The US and EU do have apparently different approach.

But i would be cautious with this. Apparently it does. The US was a confederation... and into a federation.

The EU is a confederation and some want it to be a federation. Just simply its not in the classic sense. We have to put it in the context of time and contenporary circumstances. It would not work in concept and practice. Nationalism or Patriotism of Europe... Mmmm... doesnt make sense... yet.

Language is an important base of nationalism. No way around it i forsee (except that all eurpean languages are of germanic or romanic descent- except Basque which is not yet clear). Due to that crack in time i mentioned. But there are other things... a similar european culture & civilization. All european nations have felt the influence of the Renaissance, Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution... and Globalization of course... and both world wars and other large "internal" confrontations. Living together has not been easy at times. Therefore the new approach... to remove these conflictual cracks of time, and prevent other wars... see the EU in this light and your on track.

The US, well i see it as the reminiscent of the last great nations... and probably a resistant of the changes... if time proves this. It fights the flow because it can. But yet it also stimulated it, through commerce, sea trade, internet, through democracy and especially the market.

It also however has always meddled against European intervention in its projects. Start with the American Revolution... and work your way up. Now its more complicated that this... lets say the US calls for international cooperation

with others when its for its advantage and interest. Its called Realpolitik. Why? Because it can. Power is that simple. Thats why many attack the USA for its attitude. And also why americans cannot understand why some hate them so much with its Big Bully posture. Abuse my friends... u know of it... but why cant u put it in practice outside your own lands. Well maybe u follow what the British Empire did for some centuries too. Why? Because it could too. I dont recall any pure saintly nation that hasnt in its position.

And if you guys could wouldnt you annex the stars for yourself? Human nature... is like a small child.

And blame Richilieu and Maquiavel for this conceptual practice. European invention out of the Renaissance too! Forget this plagiarism... its overrated.

The US, like states are a biproduct of globalization. And this global effort started with the Renaissance in the XV century. I do not forsee the end of national states yet however... they are simply too sucessful. In fact globalization cannot be acheived without states. The difference here that u seem to confuse its the configuration of international power with the change of some of its responsabilities. Now from this time we live in only states with access to large quantities of resources will reach full potential. Small states, or smaller states will have to join up and cooperate to acheive higher results of welfare. Only large countries, and continetal sized countries have the potential to be relatively autonomous when the "dire go straits". US is an example foremost at all levels... thats why its sucessful, with all the miscummings and benefits of that.

States traditionally proclaim independance. The flow claims inter-dependance. So the nation-state HAS to adapt in order to survive... if that makes sense to you. The US follows this too at a level... with NAFTA and other regional projects (now suspended). But... it follows the market... so actually its this that sets the pace... and what made nation-states come to being too.

[Not only this of course, but fundamentaly i mean. Religion actually had a part in it also in the sense that in 1648 somebody had the brilliant idea that religion and state affairs dont mix, after 30 years of head bashing of course.

So some puritan dudes went up to the americas meantime in the Mayflower. You know the types that like to point fingers and have high strict morals more than anyone else forgetting that the right thing to do is let ppl choose freely. Stuck with it... culturally... bad habits being difficult to lose. Only some convicts managed to change their minds somewhat later. Sounds illegal activity to me somehow down the line. Dont take it seriously though, im not.]

Therefore the tendency today is for regional cooperation. The EU is the 1st example of full economical regional integration... but its process is not over... and yet not proved successfull. If a political integration is to be made then this can be troublesome... it will promote further nationalism with the loss of national identities. Only one way to counter this. Substitute, and overlap symbols of belonging with voluntary acceptance from the ppl before actually taking that step. Otherwise it would be forceful and would not work... so if it goes in that direction all the previous steps are already in place and it will be a natural thing to do so. That which you mention would not be nationalism or patriotism in that sense. But federalism, and a something else different of patriotism. But yes the origin would be that, yet something new... or not.

Speculating we would be here.

Currency for one is not purely political and economic. It is also cultural, because its present in our daily lives. And not only for this purpose alone. Its at several levels... complex isnt it? Ok... think of this... go back a few centuries and think of gold coins (gold was gold wherever u went), with a kings seal on its back (marking kingdom and eventually also into being to a state)... Now come back to the 21st century, put an EU whatever. Same process of construction isnt it? Still the outcome may be something completely new out of the same mould.

That should clear it up... eventually. End of lecture.

[Wobble 1]

*** Wobble awakens.. wipes the sleep from his eyes**

boy.. has this fucker taken off..

one point I would like to hit:

THE MISSLE TREATY WITH USSR, is the us breaking it?

well the russians already broke it at least 3 times

1: set up early warning stations that were not allowed by the treaty... they tried to keep the secrete but the US has these things called "satellites"

2: the massive sell off of nuclear weapons to anyone with the cash.. doing this the USSR basically wadded up the treaty and wiped its ass with it.

3: selling of nuclear secretes... to who? hell THEY dont even know.. another MAJOR no no according to the treaty..

so the treaty was gang raped, molested and sodomized with a broom stick long before bush decided to "break" it..

the Russians treated it like a total joke and pretty much mocked it with their actions.. now they are acting like they stand behind it and are upset bush wants to violate it.. HOGWASH.

Im trying to think back.. but most of the stuff was either too coming of BS or not bothersome..

oh yes.. US and the death penalty.. how babarish we are..

look back at some royalty.. nice people..

[Damage Inc 0]

There is no such thing as USSR anymore

[madmike 0]

One thing I would like to say is STARWARS, it wont work.

The patriot anti scud defence didnt work in the Gulf so I really doubt this will.

Also it doesnt have the backing from any countries and if the US went ahead and put a early warning system in britain, there would be public outcry and demos.