Wind Turbines For or against & why?

[Dwarden 1125]

As stated earlier...... Where will the waste be in 3000 years? Will 'terrorists' have used them as targeting practice? Will we still be servicing them?

That's like asking tthe people around Ramses to secure his grave, and pass his final words generation through generation to us - and that we woulæd have his final words non-polluted.

Do you REALLY trust the human race that much?

I don't - just look at history, it's pretty obvious.

i guess You missed the point where i said the 'waste' is reusable in future reactors (timeframe 50-250y)

after that the waste is radioactive only for sub 50y

also i would like to see terrorist attacking underground, well defended by active army forces storage deposite ...

as someone who knows how nuclear fusion works, how our plants works i stand behind it's clean and effective

or show me another cheap and effective

(from construction to mainteance) source of 2000MW

capable work 99% of 365 days (1% counted for checkup mainteance)

As for Dwarden.. i dont respond to threats well, particularly when there is no reason for it..so dont..

althogh MANY european countrys stll are heavily based on the Feudal system, including Old bonaparte's Upgrades.

guess someone is unable to catch with irony

and it seems Your informations are obsolete by several centuries ...

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

As stated earlier...... Where will the waste be in 3000 years? Will 'terrorists' have used them as targeting practice? Will we still be servicing them?

That's like asking tthe people around Ramses to secure his grave, and pass his final words generation through generation to us - and that we woulæd have his final words non-polluted.

Do you REALLY trust the human race that much?

I don't - just look at history, it's pretty obvious.

i guess You missed the point where i said the 'waste' is reusable in future reactors (timeframe 50-250y)

after that the waste is radioactive only for sub 50y

also i would like to see terrorist attacking underground, well defended by active army forces storage deposite ...

as someone who knows how nuclear fusion works, how our plants works i stand behind it's clean and effective

or show me another cheap and effective

(from construction to mainteance) source of 2000MW

capable work 99% of 365 days (1% counted for checkup mainteance)

Nuclear energy is not clean. And accidents WILL happen. I would also like to see what military can stand guard and protect storage facilities. No western army are THAT succesfull. Just look at how pathetic the coallition forces are in current affairs.

Another, more important reply to your post. Do you have any source to back up your claims? That the radioactive waste is depleeted within 300 years? If so, please post them here.

As a medical and chemical engineer student, I know how a nuclear reactor works, and I also know how biological material reacts to large levels of radiation. As you mention, the waste can be either stored as fuel waste or recycled or reprocessed. In the united states, the waste is directly stored into the ground after it losses the most heat and radiation from the decay. That is why US has so much waste, compared to other parts of the planet. In Europe the isotopes are recycled and used again in other aspects, but the radiation doesn't decay from this - as the isotopes remains. In Europe, the nuclear waste is, however, also sent to reprocessing which means that it can be used as fuel again.

Again, the radiation doesn't decay - it simply decreases the amount of radioactive fuel neccessary to maintain production of power. Furthermore, 3% of the waste cannot be either recycled nor reprocessed and ends directly in the ground (after initial storage for about 50 years).

It takes several thousand years of isolation for this waste to be safe again.

[Dwarden 1125]

please read what i wrote once again ...

i said new UPCOMING types (~50-250y range) of reactors are able REUSE the actual waste (not anymore usable) from TODAYS reactors as FUTURE fuel ...

also waste i speak about is then stored in special containers in underground deposits ...

it got it's value as future fuel so don't await it to lay somewhere undefended ...

try check on that subject more ...

and about incidents ...

there died more people from car crash indidents than from all 'incidents' related to nuclear plants ..

same goes about permantently wounded ...

and btw. Your claim about west armies failing is funny ...

in guerilla war looses always media war the bigger and official army ...

try compare Korea war with last two Iraq wars (genial UN and politics loose wars

or Vietnam or Russians in Afganisthan with NATO today in Afganisthan ...

i don't want to compare them as there is nothing to compare except the location

[Iron+Cross 0]

Well No Pun Intended But i think this is getting Off topic..

Dwarden

Quote[/b] ]and about incidents ...

there died more people from car crash indidents than from all 'incidents' related to nuclear plants ..

same goes about permantently wounded ...

It only takes one mistake to have Chernoble, & that had fallout that spread as far west as Scotlands west coast, as far as i know, In Dumfries Large amounts of sheep had to be killed because of Radiation.

& Parents were advised to feed there children Powderd milk instead of fresh, because of indirect contamination.

The Last documentry i watched on the topic Indicated with support of Records that are not made readibly avilable to the public, that Accidents happen Regularly in the UK's Facility's, & that Security is Lax if not Non Existant in alot cases.

Quote[/b] ]and btw. Your claim about west armies failing is funny ...

in guerilla war looses always media war the bigger and official army ...

Its true, The soldiers Are costing (i'll Substitute "WAY MORE" with Actual percentages that would involve site trawling)

Than they did during WW2, Alot of it is to do with the amount of Logistics involved, & the Mental State of the soldiers,

I wont go into detail but even some U.S top brass recently stated that one of the major problems, is that the soldiers need Exspensive health care & after action treatment that western mentality's cant deal with.

Also they Stated that You cant beat an Idea unless your willing to Kill people who agree with that Idea.

& western voters wont agree to ethnic cleansing, which is what modern military's are realising is the only long term solution other than to agree & walk away.

Like whats happend in Northern Irleand They for all Intensive purposes gave in to the Majority Catholics & let them back into government as longs the Brits could save face & walk away with a symbolic victory.

Same as Cuban Crisis, Russia won that one but the U.S won Publicly as it suited both sides.

So yeh the west military is growing weaker but i think this whole thing shoudl be in another thread.

But I dont see what Nuclear facility Location Security has to do with all this? (i wont continue on this military slant any more even if replyed to)

Hey dwarden if you can can you post some links on that? if it requiers lots of trawling & you cant be arsed just say, i know what its like.

My Opinion on Nuclear Power is,

A. as longs its not near me.

B. as longs it dosent Interfere with my life in any way that bothers me or encroches on my rights.

C. as longs the Urban dwelers are happy & leve rural people alone to live there lives the way they want thats cool.

(& i dont mean in the russian way)

Check out the Polls again it proves my Point.

The Urban masses are using ETHNIC discrimination and exploitation of Rural communities in this sence.

[Daniel 0]

Quote[/b] ]as longs its not near me.

Chenobyl meant we had to pour contaminated milk down drains here in the Lake District. And that could have been so much worse.

A worst-case scenario would be fairly unimaginable.

[Messiah 2]

lets not forget that chenobyl wasn't exactly representative of a modern, well run and managed, and well trained nuclear reactor and crew. Things have come along way from then, and the soviet union is no more.

but like many have said, the issue with nuclear technology's safety, like almost all aspects of safety in our world, is the human factor. It only takes one slip of the mind, one lazy worker, one defective part not noticed, to bring the whole thing down.

I agree with nuclear power in principle, just not on trusting 10 men to look after it (or however the usual shift staff is at a nuclear power plant).

[Journeyman 0]

My Opinion on Nuclear Power is,

A. as longs its not near me.

B. as longs it dosent Interfere with my life in any way that bothers me or encroches on my rights.

C. as longs the Urban dwelers are happy & leve rural people alone to live there lives the way they want thats cool.

(& i dont mean in the russian way)  

Check out the Polls again it proves my Point.

The Urban masses are using ETHNIC discrimination and exploitation of Rural communities in this sence.

This is why I don't like your poll! I wanted to check several boxes but the software does not allow! I live in an urban environment but was bought up in a rural one and know all about rural life. I would have no problem with wind generators next to my home so long as they were doing their useful job of providing power.

You argue your case over local environmental disruptions which affect some more than others and yes these may well be more rural, but what is the alternative environmental disruption from burning fossil fuels? Is a global problem not more important than a local (and lets face it) pretty 'knit picky' one?

No offence and I understand your concerns about wind turbines/farms. But I think that you are failing to look at the whole picture and weighing the pros and cons against the alternatives. The issues you mention are pretty much insignificant if you view them on a global level are they not?

[Iron+Cross 0]

Drunk post can be deleted

[Journeyman 0]

All i know is that I have ot deal with it so do a few others's & its not right some popels Spend a LIFE TIMES in there land for thewr choildren some day, & the governmenst allows some corporate to chew up thsoe dreams its not right! or Fair, just because soem neo dont sort outs there own power needs.

there is NO fdiiference betweem Governtment Rights arnd Individuals its only Force thats Different.!

Yep! And that is the way the world works I'm afraid! The ones that push all the buttons are motivated by two things only: Money and Votes!

If you are looking for a fair world you can forget about this one!  

[Balschoiw 0]

You should try to sort some of your thoughts, fingers and eyes before posting.

I made it to the 3rd line, but that´s it.

[fasad 1]

i said new UPCOMING types (~50-250y range) of reactors are able REUSE the actual waste (not anymore usable) from TODAYS reactors as FUTURE fuel ...

also waste i speak about is then stored in special containers in underground deposits ...

it got it's value as future fuel so don't await it to lay somewhere undefended ...

A lot of the waste of a nuclear plant is the plant itself once decommissioned. Thousands of tonnes of radioactive concrete and steel, which equals big $ to safely de-construct and store.

[red oct 2]

Nuclear energy coming back from the dead

[Journeyman 0]

Nuclear energy coming back from the dead

… An interesting graph for those who think nuclear power is not a valid option! France relies on nearly 80% of its power from nuclear. What do French people think of this? Would they be against it? What is France's safety record? Would they prefer a landscape full of wind turbines instead?

… Over to France!

[Daniel 0]

Didn't the French power plants offer free energy to the surrounding customers to quell opposition? Might have misheard.

[jtec 0]

Wind power all the way, i live in a small town in England, we have a wind farm in the next town and it is doing wonders at producing large volumes of CLEAN energy. Ask yourself the question of why arent we using 100% clean fuel sources in the world now? We have the technology

Greedy governments filling pockets instead of thinking about future generations.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Wind power all the way, i live in a small town in England, we have a wind farm in the next town and it is doing wonders at producing large volumes of CLEAN energy. Ask yourself the question of why arent we using 100% clean fuel sources in the world now? We have the technology

Greedy governments filling pockets instead of thinking about future generations.

Exactly.... Atleast my country agree in this point - which is also why Denmark have no nuclear power plants and have forced the Swedish plant, Barsebäck to closure.

Dwarden - again, do you have any sources to back up your claims, or is your points something you dreamed up yourself?

Cheers

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

another dangerous class are water plants as dams ageing or may break due to natural disasters

Evan Allmighty!!!

No, seriously, Dwarden, EVERYTHING can be destroyed by so-called natural disasters... earthquakes, seaquakes, tsunamis, mega-waves,etc, and my all-time favourite, the "Incoming Asteroid to End All Things "...

I only hope that really all energy will be green one day...

[Baff1 0]

On my horizon I have a 19th century windmill, next to a 20th century radio mast. I feel a 21st century windmill would add to the scene.

Five or ten however would just ruin it.

Since Windmills are so heavily subsidised by the government, I wouldn't object to erecting one on my land.

It doesn't exactly look very nice. And it's not quiet or in keeping with my 12th century theme. A blot on the landscape.

But free money is free money.

On the whole, I am pro energy diversity.

Wind energy doesn't hurt, but it is very expensive.

Coal and gas are better. Cheap and reliable.

@Jeftec, we don't have the technology to provide "cheap clean" electricity.

The reason we don't all use cheap clean electricity, is because we don't have that option.

(There is no global conspiracy of pollution lovers all willing to pay extra on the off chance of killing the planet).

Wind generated electricity is not only very expensive, but it is unreliable.

If it's not a windy day, the town near you doesn't generate any electricity at all.

Haven't you noticed the substantial increases to you electricity bills in the last few years? Cheap energy is out of fashion.

And your greedy government, is emptying your pockets but not to repress wind power...... to subsidise it.

Nuclear is another very expensive form of electricity generation.

Private industry will not sign up to either without governmental sponsorship.

If it was "cheap", they would.

Nuclear is neither cheap nor clean (although carbon neutral) and wind power is only clean not cheap.

I like Hydro electric. Obviously I wouldn't feel that way if it was my village they were going to drown.

I'm all for saving the global enviroment, but not at the expense of my local one.

Domestic solar panels are a total comedy fantasy of the hippy set. They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

If you didn't buy the panels and instead left the same money in the bank, the intrest off it would pay your yearly electricity bills and you could drink as much tea as you liked, watch television, have hot showers, power tools, lightbulbs that work at night....etc etc etc.

They have a solar power station at Edwards airforce base. Solar powerplants are cost effective in equatorial zones.

(The windfarms all over the mountain ranges there are pretty impressive also. The one on the M4 at Heathrow surrounded by trees is terminally stupid however, as are all the ones at the bottom of those hills near Northhampton, fashionable.... but stupid).

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

On my horizon I have a 19th century windmill, next to a 20th century radio mast. I feel a 21st century windmill would add to the scene.

Five or ten however would just ruin it.

Since Windmills are so heavily subsidised by the government, I wouldn't object to erecting one on my land.

It doesn't exactly look very nice. And it's not quiet or in keeping with my 12th century theme. A blot on the landscape.

But free money is free money.

On the whole, I am pro energy diversity.

Wind energy doesn't hurt, but it is very expensive.

Coal and gas are better. Cheap and reliable.

@Jeftec, we don't have the technology to provide "cheap clean" electricity.

The reason we don't all use cheap clean electricity, is because we don't have that option.

(There is no global conspiracy of pollution lovers all willing to pay extra on the off chance of killing the planet).

Wind generated electricity is not only very expensive, but it is unreliable.

If it's not a windy day, the town near you doesn't generate any electricity at all.

Haven't you noticed the substantial increases to you electricity bills in the last few years? Cheap energy is out of fashion.

And your greedy government, is emptying your pockets but not to repress wind power...... to subsidise it.

Nuclear is another very expensive form of electricity generation.

Private industry will not sign up to either without governmental sponsorship.

If it was "cheap", they would.

Nuclear is neither cheap nor clean (although carbon neutral) and wind power is only clean not cheap.

I like Hydro electric. Obviously I wouldn't feel that way if it was my village they were going to drown.

I'm all for saving the global enviroment, but not at the expense of my local one.

Domestic solar panels are a total comedy fantasy of the hippy set. They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

If you didn't buy the panels and instead left the same money in the bank, the intrest off it would pay your yearly electricity bills and you could drink as much tea as you liked, watch television, have hot showers, power tools, lightbulbs that work at night....etc etc etc.

They have a solar power station at Edwards airforce base. Solar powerplants are cost effective in equatorial zones.

(The windfarms all over the mountain ranges there are pretty impressive also. The one on the M4 at Heathrow surrounded by trees is terminally stupid however, as are all the ones at the bottom of those hills near Northhampton, fashionable.... but stupid).

You just need to store the energy - for example my pumping water into high ground, and use turbines to generate electricity whenever there is no wind.

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]Domestic solar panels are a total comedy fantasy of the hippy set. They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

If you didn't buy the panels and instead left the same money in the bank, the intrest off it would pay your yearly electricity bills and you could drink as much tea as you liked, watch television, have hot showers, power tools, lightbulbs that work at night....etc etc etc.

would you be able to back those claims up with any figures, reports, white papers? I'd also love to know the Bank you use in the UK, because Lloyds certainly isn't that generous to me.

[Journeyman 0]

Domestic solar panels are a total comedy fantasy of the hippy set. They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

If you didn't buy the panels and instead left the same money in the bank, the intrest off it would pay your yearly electricity bills and you could drink as much tea as you liked, watch television, have hot showers, power tools, lightbulbs that work at night....etc etc etc.

Hmm! I think a dose of over negativity there Baff1!  

This guy Doesn't do too badly with solar panels. Although I expect you might be referring to those sold in B&Q the size of a dinner plate! Or these things for your garden shed! I agree though you do need a lot of them and big ones too if you are gonna go for the punch! I think about 1sq meter of PV panel for 150 watts so do the maths! And yes your right they are not cheap!

Your point about wind turbines in silly places is also something I've held off mentioning so far and is yet another case of "hey look here is another opportunity to con the green gullible consumers!" This site says it all! Stick 'em where they get the wind, not on your urban dwelling rooftop!!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Domestic solar panels are a total comedy fantasy of the hippy set. They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

If you didn't buy the panels and instead left the same money in the bank, the intrest off it would pay your yearly electricity bills and you could drink as much tea as you liked, watch television, have hot showers, power tools, lightbulbs that work at night....etc etc etc.

Nice one

My 36 panel photovoltaic installation produces 7,74 kWp.

Each panel creates 215 Watt @ 42 Volt with 5,13 Ampere

The size of the complete installation is 46 square meters.

I guess you might want to check your "sources" again pls.

[Iron+Cross 0]

Nice one BUZZARD  

although i could see how some jerry's mite get a little twitchy when they hear proped aircraft near dams  

Quote[/b] ]They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

WRONG, (ooh that felt good almost Like the way Patty & Selma say it in simpsons when there evil to poor old Homer)

hmm ok lets go with the fridge thing...

So lets say your Using an EvaKool large 120 Litre

Fridge-Freezer, It uses about 92Watts per hour thats about 2Kw for every 24hrs. (one day) or 2208 watts per day.

Now the power can come from PV cells (solar pannels)

say you bought 2 low quality Sanyo 200 Watt PV cells, thats (per hour at peak, which latss for about 30 years at 80% or greater, its not a quality example ,but quick to find)

Lets take it at realy bad situation, you get 6 hours of daylight during winter, (if you get any less than that what the hell are you Living there for? the night life??)

So thats about 6 X 200Watts thats 1200x2 Watts you will generate on aa winters day, about 35% Less during couldy days but not normaly that much, (& yes they work on Heavy overcast days its about the LIGHT not just the heat from the sun) so thats 2400 in 24hrs. ready to rock with.

& lets say you arent so stuborn that you would actuly use Batteries to Save the extra power you make for the Non Generating period.

you would Generate about ~2400watts in one solar cycle but you only use about ~2208watts, & you realy dont need a 120 litre fridge freezer so its going to be half that.

In general, Yeh you can power a fridge Freezer 24hrs a day on a solar pannel, & the ones i was talking about are only about 52inches long by 35 inches wide. (but they aint great quality compared to  the "Proper ones") its just Maths (which i aint hot at.)

now you can get better ones than that & think you can power your whole house & save HEAPS of money in the long run, even if you MOVE!

Also here is some cool Military one's... Uhemmm looks like they are playing VBS2   i guese its cheaper than simuntionts. (that cant be good for his posture.)

although ive seen some lighter Chinese Military versions online used alot for sports trecking.

p.s

i would rip your ideas apart more but i had to work it out on the spot & i cant find teh damn calculations i did for my place convertion.. grrr bring on SSD's i hate Magnetic platters, always loosing file.

(Update) ah damn you got there before me.. OMG io was doing sums for 2 hours lol)

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Domestic solar panels are a total comedy fantasy of the hippy set. They don't generate at night, and in the daytime only generate enough to power a lightbulb.

They can't for example power a kettle to make you a cup of tea. Or run your fridge to preserve your foodstuffs.

If you didn't buy the panels and instead left the same money in the bank, the intrest off it would pay your yearly electricity bills and you could drink as much tea as you liked, watch television, have hot showers, power tools, lightbulbs that work at night....etc etc etc.

Nice one  

My 36 panel photovoltaic installation produces 7,74 kWp.

Each panel creates 215 Watt @ 42 Volt with 5,13 Ampere

The size of the complete installation is 46 square meters.

I guess you might want to check your "sources" again pls.

Wow 36 panel!

46 square metres!

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for it?

It's been 3 months since I last checked my sources, but since you asked, I've done so again and report the results to you below

By my sources a 40 watt panel costs 240 quid.

So ignoring any batteries or fitting your set up would cost me over 11 thousand pounds.

The intrest on that same money kept in a savings account is 779 pounds a year.

The average yearly electricity bill for a U.K. household is  335 pounds.

So assuming I fit it myself and that I don't use any battery solution for nighttime supply, and I only keep my money invested in a saving's account; a set up like yours would cost me double the price of my average yearly electricity bill.

Your solar array is an expensive joke.

5,000 pounds buys me free electricity for the rest of my life. Why pay double for solar that only works in the daytime?

@ Iron cross, my freezer is 200 litre as is my fridge. I don't live alone or in town near to any shops.

The reason I mentioned freezers as my example, was because I watched a show about an African medical centre. They had ben donated solar power and a medecine fridge.

Despite strong sunlight lasting for more than 6 hours a day they were unable to run their fridge.

Saving money.

If the yearly intrest on your initial outlay is greater then the reduced cost of your electricity bill, you are not saving money. This is false economy.

It is costing you money over time, not saving you any.

2x 200w Sanyo's will cost me 1500 pounds. Which is a 100 ponuds a year income.  That's the same price as one third of my yearly electricity bills for a peak midday power output of 2-4 lightbulbs.

A total daily input of 2KW sounds like alot, but I will need 2KW over a period of 2 minutes if I want to make a pot of tea.

@Messiah I am currently getting 6.9% at Northern Rock. (scarey but good).

Although I also am a shareholder and have have accounts at HSBC and TSB. (HSBC is the least likely bank to collapse due to the nature of it's assets).

For best results you will need a saving's account and be prepared to swap your money around for the best deal.

There are of course other places to invest your money that will offer you a higher return.

BP is looking pretty good right now if you have some cash free. You could add 50% to the value of your money within three years and have income on it.

Or you could buy Yen, which is at as record low. Against the pound which is at a record high, that should get you the same 50% in 3-6 months if you were willing to watch the markets.

Even at Llyods bank the intrest on a sum of 11 thousands pounds will easily cover your yearly electricity bills for the rest of your life with some to spare.

If however you were thinking of buying an 11 thousand pound or indeed any size of solar array on credit, it would then be costing you far more than double the price of normal electricity as you would have to factor in the intrest on your repayments.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Wow 36 panel!

46 square metres!

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for it?

~ 45.000 Euro

I sell the power generated at a guaranteed price of 0,51 Euro per KWh for the next 20 years.

As the energy prices are rising rapidly here in germany it´s a win-situation in any case. Over the last 5 years the cost for electricity in germany have risen about a total of 15 - 20 percent.

This upward trend will continue, keeping in mind the international demand for energy and the monopolistic structures of european energy providers.

BTW, a 46 square meters installation is quite small for the region I live in. Most farmers have covered their big stable roofs with installations exceeding sizes of 100 - 150 square meters and even more.

Quote[/b] ]Your solar array is an expensive joke.

Not really. Do the maths.