balance vs realism (idea)

[Second 0]

I still dont see why this topic is more then a 'i want better AI topic' in disguise?

Your right.

ArmA's AI is guite good in the end. With 1.08 patch their urban warfare abilities have gone up, it seems to be much tougher opponents than before.

There are things that are lacking... Or is there?

-In dynamic-field that Funnyguy1 is asking (yes i understand now what you are after, mostly i agree) all or most they are already present in ArmA: AI has wide variety of aspects, mission editor can adjust AI's aggressiveness (will to engage), cowardy etc... In that sector what could be asked from BIS is that they could make those easier to select (no need to use scripting language) so that mission designer would be actually using them more.

-Then there are standart military routines missing (that's what i'm asking)... But is that problem with waypoint system more than with AI? AI can be made to do most of the things... But after all it requires scripting or lots of work in mission editing phase... Which usually reduces dynamic structure of mission.

But i don't see this relating in "balance vs realism" as Ofpforum hinted. AI isn't balanced from n00bs and it isn't made to be stupid, but there are things that affects negatively in taking advantage of AI's or engines felxibility.

[maddogx 13]

I voted no. My opinion:

Although the AI is lacking in some areas, it really just needs a few features added (i.e. suppression) and some features tweaked (i.e. taking cover, "senses"). Given that, I think the AI will be pretty good all-round without need of an additional special config. Any advanced features can be scripted. We don't have the scripting language for nothing.

[twisted 128]

I voted no. My opinion:

Although the AI is lacking in some areas, it really just needs a few features added (i.e. suppression) and some features tweaked (i.e. taking cover, "senses"). Given that, I think the AI will be pretty good all-round without need of an additional special config. Any advanced features can be scripted. We don't have the scripting language for nothing.

be good if AI could recognise buildings or at least the corners of the buildings (sort of like they can see 'positions' in a house right now).

[maddogx 13]

be good if AI could recognise buildings or at least the corners of the buildings (sort of like they can see 'positions' in a house right now).

Yeah it would definitely be good if they could keep close to walls, look around corners, take cover behind objects and stay off the streets if possible. One thing that would need to be changed for that is the movement accuracy system, which has been discussed before. Basically, when moving short distances (like in towns, from building to building) the AI should try and be more precise when moving.

In my opinion, for the AI to be (almost) perfect they would need:

- Less hearing accuracy

- Better movement precision at short movement distances

- Better awareness of buildings and objects and their dimensions

- Usage of cover, especially in towns

- Remaining in cover when under fire (passive suppression)

- Firing toward enemies to allow comrades to advance/flank (active suppression)

If we had those things, it would be almost perfect.

[max power 21]

I voted no. My opinion:

Although the AI is lacking in some areas, it really just needs a few features added (i.e. suppression) and some features tweaked (i.e. taking cover, "senses"). Given that, I think the AI will be pretty good all-round without need of an additional special config. Any advanced features can be scripted. We don't have the scripting language for nothing.

How do you suppress the player, though? Suppressing the AI would make it unfair.

[maddogx 13]

I voted no. My opinion:

Although the AI is lacking in some areas, it really just needs a few features added (i.e. suppression) and some features tweaked (i.e. taking cover, "senses"). Given that, I think the AI will be pretty good all-round without need of an additional special config. Any advanced features can be scripted. We don't have the scripting language for nothing.

How do you suppress the player, though? Suppressing the AI would make it unfair.

Suppressing the player usually happens automatically, or don't you run for cover when under fire?

[max power 21]

Being under fire seldomly changes my behaviour much. I'm quite a careful player. Suppression indicates an inability to act. There has been maybe one instance where I was forced to do something I didn't want to do (or wasn't able to do something I wanted to) because I was being shot at in ArmA. In that instance, I felt it was just easier to call in my buddy to help me out. Moving from cover to cover or other cautious behaviour is not related to suppression, and would be a welcome addition to the AI in ArmA regardless of some kind of suppression simulation.

[Second 0]

Being under fire seldomly changes my behaviour much. I'm quite a careful player. Suppression indicates an inability to act. There has been maybe one instance where I was forced to do something I didn't want to do (or wasn't able to do something I wanted to) because I was being shot at in ArmA. In that instance, I felt it was just easier to call in my buddy to help me out. Moving from cover to cover or other cautious behaviour is not related to suppression, and would be a welcome addition to the AI in ArmA regardless of some kind of suppression simulation.

And i usually just start to shoot sharper and more efficently, but other wise i doesn't effect me either. Maybe some times suppression has effect when i feel to roleplay the character, but usually this is not the case.

player can't feel fear of death and that should be simulated somehow... Blurring or black outs are quite efficent way to reduce player's will to do something, atleast this stands for me. Other way would be that suppression forces charater to do things and take control to charater from player for a short while... But that wouldn't be fun or even good thing.

Forcing enemy to seek for cover and not to advance and reduce it's skills and eventually to make it to hold it's fire and flee is what i used with AI.

Combat mission uses quite good suppression system, which has 8 steps, from mild cautious behaviour (nothing more that men watch bit more their doings and use cover bit more) to sever broken (units will to fight is gone, not fit to fight anymore). But i quess that ArmA won't need that much, three might be just fine.

Individual changes would be also one thing, which ArmA should represent too. Someones are unaffected by it, many WW2 veterans have said that those individuals become even more efficent.

[wamingo 1]

You aim more accurately when the pressure goes up?!

Supression makes me go like SHIIIIT and hit the dirt and shoot wildly at random bushes, usually killing one or two of my teammates in the process... Well, sometimes.

Anyway something interesting about AI return fire...

You can see much more leaning right around a corner than leaning left because your gun is in your right side, and if you're just a little careful then the AI will not return fire when leaning right! That's pretty bad.

And, regardless of which way you're leaning, it always takes them a split second before they open fire. So you can lean in and out quickly until you get a perfect shot. That's pretty bad too.

For these reasons alone, we need supression, both on targets in view and out of view.

[maddogx 13]

You aim more accurately when the pressure goes up?!

Supression makes me go like SHIIIIT and hit the dirt and shoot wildly at random bushes, usually killing one or two of my teammates in the process... Well, sometimes.

Anyway something interesting about AI return fire...

You can see much more leaning right around a corner than leaning left because your gun is in your right side, and if you're just a little careful then the AI will not return fire when leaning right! That's pretty bad.

And, regardless of which way you're leaning, it always takes them a split second before they open fire. So you can lean in and out quickly until you get a perfect shot. That's pretty bad too.

For these reasons alone, we need supression, both on targets in view and out of view.

Agreed 100%.

[Second 0]

You aim more accurately when the pressure goes up?!

I start to get into right mood only when i'm in somewhat bad situation... Harder to get the right mood in games, these days, don't know why.

Otherwise i just play with "left hand"-style. Shooting like this: and usually from standing position.