Sniping in ArmA

[Jason762 0]

Man, in OP:F I LOVED sniping. I'd go out of my way to make sure I'd be able to get at least SOME sniping action. As a result I became really good. I'd hit moving targets from far, far away and even hit people when they didn't fit the range finding reticle.

So when I bought ArmA, and saw that the M24 and the MK12 SPR was available, I was ECSTATIC.

Then I played the mission where you climb the water tower and shoot troops. Well it sucks. I tried several different levels of zoom and it seems it takes at least 3 shots per target to actually hit them.

What's up? Is it a glitch or human error?

Thanks!

Jason

[Battousai567 0]

I find the SPR to be somewhat inaccurate for long range, so that might not be your shooting thats the problem.  But the M24 and M107 are more than accurate enough for 1000 meters (and over? probably my own error for greater distances to an extent).

[frederf 0]

You might want to un-bind "hold breath" from right mouse button and put it on a different key before doing any serious sniping.

Also you should learn to range targets with the mildots and know the hold over/unders for various ranges for those first-shot-hits.

The SPR is an M4, as such it's only accurate for 500m or so. The SPR is an M4. It's not that accurate a rifle for long range cannon stuff. The SPR is an M4.

[JagdPanther101 0]

Actually, the SPR is not really an M4. It is an outgrowth of the M-16. Slightly shorter than the -16, but definitely longer and heavier than the M4.

[Sniperdoc 0]

I was a big fan of the fact that on that particular mission they had a little hut you could sit in... (we used to call that a pig magnet)

Now... there's a hole in the bottom left of that shed/hut facing the objective. Too bad ya can't use it!!! Game mechanics suck. Even on the water tower... 9/10 times I'd hang off the edge of the tower if I went prone and got shot... AND... I love their sniper fire with their AK74's at 500yds... Or the PKM's... much better...  

[Jason762 0]

I was a big fan of the fact that on that particular mission they had a little hut you could sit in... (we used to call that a pig magnet)

Now... there's a hole in the bottom left of that shed/hut facing the objective. Too bad ya can't use it!!! Game mechanics suck. Even on the water tower... 9/10 times I'd hang off the edge of the tower if I went prone and got shot... AND... I love their sniper fire with their AK74's at 500yds... Or the PKM's... much better...

Yeh I know, I saw that.

But in real life, that'd (maybe) the fake sniper hide.

But yeah seriously sniper fire with machine guns and AK's? What about the the grenadiers trying to shoot you out of the water tower?

And the RPG guys actually blasting me off? Would that actually happen in real life?

[an_enlarged_stomach 1]

I just finished that mission! Really hard...

[4 IN 1 0]

no, its the bullet they use have problem, SPR IRL cant perform as well with standard nato rounds too, only if they use a heavier 77gr <s>Mk252</s> Mk262 rounds with a bit of practice could do the job more decently, some even clam the range between 25m~925m(seals talk, not from me)

now if only BI change the 20rd mag config

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

The SPR is an M4, as such it's only accurate for 500m or so. The SPR is an M4. It's not that accurate a rifle for long range cannon stuff. The SPR is an M4.

Höh ?

I think that sniping in Arma is more accurate than in OFP, although it is not so much fun.

[Sniperdoc 0]

SOBR[1st-I-R] @ June 01 2007,06:38)]

The SPR is an M4, as such it's only accurate for 500m or so. The SPR is an M4. It's not that accurate a rifle for long range cannon stuff. The SPR is an M4.

Höh ?  

I think that sniping in Arma is more accurate than in OFP, although it is not so much fun.

Oh... you think it's better than in OFP? (I'm not trying to be a smartass)

Let me give you my opinions and observations on this topic.

1. In order for me to hit targets at what I'm assuming to be about 500 yards (on that water-tower mission) I had to aim LOW. I had to use the first upper vertical mil-dot to hit targets. Which I believe to be wrong. Sniper Rifles are generally zeroed to a certain distance. Generally it's up to the snipers preference. For example, since the only range that I have here in Gainesville is a 100 yard range, my rifle (.308 Remington 700 LTR - a shorter barreled version of the M40A1), my rifle is zeroed to 100 yards. Meaning that if I put my crosshair on the bullseye, I should be able to hit the bullseye given proper breathing, windage, triggerpull, etc... Unless that rifle, of that mission in the game, is zeroed for 600 yards, I don't buy having to shoot low. I think it's a mis-alignment, by the developers, of the crosshair and actual impact point from what it should be.

2. There's no ability to change elevation of the crosshair/scope. We don't need windage since it's not really modeled.

3. Unrealistic mil-dots? - I haven't done tests yet to see if the mil-dots are actually REAL mil-dots. The Unertl Scope that we had on our M40A1's had mil-dots. What you could do with mil-dots was approximate the height of an individual, a house door, or a vehicle (usually by a handy chart) and then see how tall in mil-dots the item/person was in the scope. Then, bust out your handy dandy TI-83 (just kidding), do some quick math, and that would give you the range to the target. If you have a good known range to a target, and you look through your scope, do the math, and it's off from what you know the good range to be... then the dots are not modeled correctly. Or... the heights of the people in the game is off. If we can get an accurate height of an NPC in the game (maybe a developer can tell us), put that NPC at 300 yards, then view that NPC throught the scope at 300 yards, do the math and see if the dots are telling the truth  

EDIT: Here's the range estimation formula using mil-dots... had to look through my book:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

(size of target in meters x 1000)/size of object in mils = range to target in meters

To convert from inches to meters:

.0254 x number of inches = meters

You can also estimate by the size of the head:

(10 inches x 1000 x .0254)/size of target in mils = range to target in meters

The average human head is 10 inches tall

4. I also don't like how SOME of the scopes are adjustable as far as viewing distance. I know that there are SOME scopes out there that allow you to switch the aperture to a longer distance, 3x to 9x for example, but I myself haven't experienced them... ACOGs, Reflex, and the Unertl Scopes do NOT allow you to adjust them. They are completely static (they don't allow you change zoom essentially).

So... in that regard, I don't think that ArmA is accurate at all. As a matter of fact it's completely off.

The best Sniping, in my opinion, is still America's Army. Although, in AA, I do not like the random shot circle that increases and decreases with the fatigue level. Where your crosshair is, is where the bullet should land (depending on elevation there should be bullet drop of course), but AA's pattern is completely random. The first shot is usually dead on, but if firing rapidly, it's way off. It's my opinion, that if you're good enough to keep your crosshair lined up properly despite the fact that you're fatigue level is high, you should be able to place shots nonetheless. Heck, if you've played long enough to adjust for your fatigue level, it just shows a shooters experience with the weapon...  no? But, I believe with a randomized hit pattern that increases with fatigue, it removes the realistic aspect.

That is one thing, that OFP and ArmA have done VERYwell:

The actual aimpoint/impact area and general heading crosshairs that create a little more realism. Heck, I remember playing OFP for the first time and wondering what the hell that little pixel was that was flying around the screen when I was running all over the place... and when it dawned on me what that was, I thought it was the most ingenious thing ever developed to create that extra realism.

Anyways, that's my two cents

[KJAM 0]

I find the SPR to be somewhat inaccurate for long range, so that might not be your shooting thats the problem. But the M24 and M107 are more than accurate enough for 1000 meters (and over? probably my own error for greater distances to an extent).

Guess it just depends on practise, I can and have hit static targets at 940M with an SPR in ArmA and can regularly and easily hit targets at 500m it also has other benefits.

Can use 30rnd Stanag Magazines, giving you a greater amount of ammunition for a smaller amount of carrying capacity.

Since it used those Magazines, when fired, the SPR isn't immediately identifiable as a sniper (This is great for playing against other real players, when you use the M24 or M107, people WILL know there is a sniper about, with the SPR, from a sound point of view, you seem like a regular Infantryman.

[RedStorm 0]

The range in that mission is about 200 yards. The M24 SWS is zeroed in at 500.

[mamasan8 11]

BIS actually released the specs on what the crosshair is zeroed at. The m107 (barrett) is 500 metres. Rest were 300 and less.

SPR: I avoid SPR at all costs, it just isnt accurate, even 200 metres from target the shots end up +-1 metres from the target.

M24: Bullet drops way too fast for me, anything above 500 metres just doesnt seem feasible with it. Can be done but I prefer Barrett for longer distance.

M107 (Barrett): Great rifle, love it. Almost always 1 hit, 1 kill.

Great at range, also seems the bullet travels faster than any other gun. Maybe it's just the deadliness of it.

Moving targets isnt that hard to hit (except online, lag and warping), just takes practice. But I still don't hit them with 1st shot unless they run almost straight at me.

Now, if they could just add a handgun with more punch, like a Desert Eagle or something I would be happy =)

[KJAM 0]

SPR: I avoid SPR at all costs, it just isnt accurate, even 200 metres from target the shots end up +-1 metres from the target.

Just because you can't hit a target, doesn't mean that the rifle is innacurate. I can use the SPR from anywhere from 50m to 600/700m effectively.

[mamasan8 11]

SPR: I avoid SPR at all costs, it just isnt accurate, even 200 metres from target the shots end up +-1 metres from the target.

Just because you can't hit a target, doesn't mean that the rifle is innacurate. I can use the SPR from anywhere from 50m to 600/700m effectively.

Have you ever looked at the crosshair and then looked at where the bullet actually lands? It is almost always to the left or right of the center of the crosshair. Normal M16 and M4 is more accurate.

***********************************

Optics/Ironsights leveling on distance:

50m > MP5, pistols

100m > AK74UN, M4/M16 with Aimpoint, ACOG sights or suppressor

120m-400m > M4SPR

200m > SVD, KSVK, AK74PSO

300m > AK74, AK74GL, AK74U, M16A2, M16GL, M16A4, M16A4GL, all G36, machineguns

500m > M107

*************************************

From patch 1.05, weapons.pbo

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Version_History

[KJAM 0]

SPR: I avoid SPR at all costs, it just isnt accurate, even 200 metres from target the shots end up +-1 metres from the target.

Just because you can't hit a target, doesn't mean that the rifle is innacurate. I can use the SPR from anywhere from 50m to 600/700m effectively.

Have you ever looked at the crosshair and then looked at where the bullet actually lands? It is almost always to the left or right of the center of the crosshair. Normal M16 and M4 is more accurate.

That must just be you, even if my crosshair is abov or below my target, due to how i know the rifles behaviour, I will almost always have my bullet land where I aimed.

This morning for example, setting myself up on a 700m range, I took an SPR and 4 Magazines, 120 hits, Zero misses on the target.

[4 IN 1 0]

unless you use special configed rounds that similate Mk262, no, there are no way that SPR would act like they should

should i drop it into BTS request list?

and i think we need a real deal guy who acturally fire an SPR with Mk262 to tell us what he think, oh and BI really do have to fix ballistic, maybe a bit too much to ask for after all

[.COMmunist 0]

In that water tower mission I have noticed an interesting thing too. If the target is laying down by that road near the trucks, I need to aim just below his face to hit him in the head. Should it be other way around? I though the bullet drops with a distance, not rise....

Also, if you guys are having a hard time with assault rifles and MG snipers at 500 meters, go to the option menu and choose difficulty section. In there you can set up the level of skill for your enemies and your friendlies. Choose CUSTOM and a skill bar will appear. Set it up for about 50%, I find that AI shoots realisticaly good/bad at 50% skill level. They were shooting at me in the tower from far away, but the bullets only got dangerously close just two times.

[mamasan8 11]

SPR: I avoid SPR at all costs, it just isnt accurate, even 200 metres from target the shots end up +-1 metres from the target.

Just because you can't hit a target, doesn't mean that the rifle is innacurate. I can use the SPR from anywhere from 50m to 600/700m effectively.

Have you ever looked at the crosshair and then looked at where the bullet actually lands? It is almost always to the left or right of the center of the crosshair. Normal M16 and M4 is more accurate.

That must just be you, even if my crosshair is abov or below my target, due to how i know the rifles behaviour, I will almost always have my bullet land where I aimed.

This morning for example, setting myself up on a 700m range, I took an SPR and 4 Magazines, 120 hits, Zero misses on the target.

I tested SPR some more. It is accurate but I still cant aim with it =). I stand corrected.

The crosshair sways too much, even when holding breath. I can aim for heads with M24 and M107 (stationary target) but not with SPR.

.COMmunist: Go to page one of this topic, I pasted some stuff from patchrelease concerning crosshairs and the zeroing of them.

[KJAM 0]

I tested SPR some more. It is accurate but I still cant aim with it =). I stand corrected.

The crosshair sways too much, even when holding breath. I can aim for heads with M24 and M107 (stationary) but not with SPR.

I presume you are aiming to the head to get headshots?

If you are, don't, ALWAYS go for centre mass (i.e torso) as you're more guaranteed to hit their torso than their head, the result of a headshot and a torso shot are the same, your target dies.

I never aim for the head, even when I'm close, I always go for centre mass

[Sniperdoc 0]

In that water tower mission I have noticed an interesting thing too. If the target is laying down by that road near the trucks, I need to aim just below his face to hit him in the head. Should it be other way around? I though the bullet drops with a distance, not rise....

As was stated previously, the rifles are zeroed in at 300 - 500 depending on the rifle, I guess. So... since they are intended to be dead on at a longer distance, then if you are below that distance, you WILL have to shoot beneath the target. Hence I have to shoot center mass to get a headshot at the tower mission.

Hope that helps.

Oh... just as a neat to know theory (it is under investigation):

When the bullet is getting expelled out of the barrel after being shot, the bullet will actually INCREASE in speed after exiting the barrel. The reasoning for this (supposedly) is that after the bullet exits the barrel, there's less friction (air vs metal), and that the gas column that exits the barrel will extend a long distance off of the crown, thereby still pushing the bullet. Since there's less friction, and the gas column is still helping push the bullet, they say that the bullet still speeds up after it has left the barrel.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]When the bullet is getting expelled out of the barrel after being shot, the bullet will actually INCREASE in speed after exiting the barrel. The reasoning for this (supposedly) is that after the bullet exits the barrel, there's less friction (air vs metal), and that the gas column that exits the barrel will extend a long distance off of the crown, thereby still pushing the bullet. Since there's less friction, and the gas column is still helping push the bullet, they say that the bullet still speeds up after it has left the barrel.

Urban myth.

Flash surpressors divert the gasses right at the end of the barrel and therefore there is no boost effect for the bullet. Apart from that gasses will expand very quickly outside the barrel and create "dirty air" that is pushed ahead of the bullet with no significant effect on the bullet itself. If you got a good flash surpressor it will eventually torque the bullet and give it a yaw, but because of mass relations there is no measurable speed gain.

As the expanding gas has a very little mass effect once it´s in the flash surpressor it has no effect on the speed of the bullet as it simply has lost it´s energy already when it left the closed barrel system and gets diverted by flash surpressor.

[Sniperdoc 0]

Urban myth.

Flash surpressors divert the gasses right at the end of the barrel and therefore there is no boost effect for the bullet. Apart from that gasses will expand very quickly outside the barrel and create "dirty air" that is pushed ahead of the bullet with no significant effect on the bullet itself. If you got a good flash surpressor it will eventually torque the bullet and give it a yaw, but because of mass relations there is no measurable speed gain.

As the expanding gas has a very little mass effect once it´s in the flash surpressor it has no effect on the speed of the bullet as it simply has lost it´s energy already when it left the closed barrel system and gets diverted by flash surpressor.

Good to know... because none of the sniper rifles STA uses have flash supressors. So, using a bolt-action sniper rifle... what you just stated, has no validity. The M24, M40A3(or A1) don't have flash supressors just for that particular reason. The crown on a rifle bore of that type is the most important part BECAUSE it doesn't have that "dirty air" effect. Ding, dent or scratch the crown, and it can really mess up the trajectory of your round. Thats why we were all tought to bring the bore cleaner in from the rear and not the front. Less wear and tear on the crown.

Using a STANDARD sniper rifle... not a M4 sniper variant, or the .50 series, be it the M90, M95, or the XM107, or Russian rifles like the SVD, this "urban myth" as you say it, would NOT hold true.This "myth" would only be applicable to weapons without a flash suppressor.

As I said, this is still under discussion by ballistics experts. I remember reading 2 articles recently about this effect, but for the life of me, I don't remember where I found them.

[frederf 0]

It would be very cool if the 20 rnd magazines were coded to be more accurate than the 30 rnd magazines.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The crown on a rifle bore of that type is the most important part BECAUSE it doesn't have that "dirty air" effect.

Every gun, rifle, pistol has it as once the expanding air is leaving the barrel it will turn diffuse and expand undirected.

Quote[/b] ]This "myth" would only be applicable to weapons without a flash suppressor.

As I already explained the mass effect of expanding air outside the barrel is neglectable as the mass density of air compared to the solid density of a bullet of any kind is not in a state where the expanding air could influence the bullet speed in a significant way.

By physics it´s just the other way round. The mass of the bullet will affect the air, as air has a much lower density than metal, so basically the air will go where it meats less resistance and that is somewhere left, right, over, under the bullet.

This is why guns, pistols, rifles produce clouds and not columns.

If it should work like you sugessted the air in the barrel would need higher mass effect and a drill, which is not the case. The only thing that gets a twist is the projectile. There is too few friction for air in the barrel to get a twist, and even if compressed air should be having a twist it would loose it the moment it exits the barrel for mass density and expansion.