A10 Flight Model needs tweaking

[Donnervogel 0]

Well ARMA/OFP is a crappy flight simulator... that's no surprise. I think aircraft like in OFP are only useful for looks, handled by AI (when supported with some scripts to make them useful) and for some nerds that actually learn to fly those things really well as I have seen amazing CAS support with the worst planes when the right player was flying it (not implying it was realistic but who cares). It was hard to fly planes well in OFP but some people could do it really well. I think that was pretty cool because not everyone was good so good pilots were actually something rare And having a player in MP flying in really slow an dropping that uniguided LGB with pinpoint precission on the AI really made me go "wow".

Thats Easy and for Us "Nerds" its not hard to learn at all so tech few hours practice and your there unless your completely useless in the first place.

I dont see anything wrong with the flight moddel.

hey I've been trying since OFP 1.0 and I never learned to stay alive longer than 5 minutes in an OFP plane (and hitting something without guided missles is totally out of the question)

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

By no means is this Fllight Model that Bad. Hell if they can't seem to fix it I still enjoy flying in ArmA. The planes fly way better than BF2 for example. BF2 shouldn't even be called flying... when it comes to jets anyways. Now here's my only gripe. Believe it or not... BF2 Helos are a bit more accurate when it comes to the feel of flying a real helicopter... well more so than ArmA anyways... Now that's a bit sad...

Hey, in the end I still love this game and will play it for years to come. I hated having to stoop so low as to play a game like BF2 but OFP was getting stale for a while now... Then again, Bf2 was fun till EA compromised there product for the masses...(Whiners) With each patch they continued to NOOB it.

Damn now I'm just ranting...

Donnervogel, who are you calling a Flight Nerd... I use to love PlaneFrenzy.

[mattxr 9]

Well ARMA/OFP is a crappy flight simulator... that's no surprise. I think aircraft like in OFP are only useful for looks, handled by AI (when supported with some scripts to make them useful) and for some nerds that actually learn to fly those things really well as I have seen amazing CAS support with the worst planes when the right player was flying it (not implying it was realistic but who cares). It was hard to fly planes well in OFP but some people could do it really well. I think that was pretty cool because not everyone was good so good pilots were actually something rare And having a player in MP flying in really slow an dropping that uniguided LGB with pinpoint precission on the AI really made me go "wow".

Thats Easy and for Us "Nerds" its not hard to learn at all so tech few hours practice and your there unless your completely useless in the first place.

I dont see anything wrong with the flight moddel.

hey I've been trying since OFP 1.0 and I never learned to stay alive longer than 5 minutes in an OFP plane (and hitting something without guided missles is totally out of the question)

Ive just made this simple video in the past 5min showing how easy it is to hit a target unguided. lol.

Bomb Drop - Right Click Save As

for some gay reason it wouldnt let me upload it to youtube.

[Donnervogel 0]

I tried hitting a tank in the same spot for 30 mins now. I hit once... with pure luck... out of like 40 bomb drops

[max power 21]

The only thing I which BIS would fix soon is the the Peddle (YAW) response on the Helos. They should still respond even when moving foward at high speed.

This has been discussed at length by american military helicopter pilots on this forum. They would tend to disagree with you.

I have flown several helicopters and you have complete Yaw at any speed. You can go from flying at 80 to 120 mph while moving forward and kick the Helo sideways and continue flying sideways at same speed... you can't do this in ArmA.

Please try again...

Before you even bother asking... I am not a Licensed Pilot but I have flown both Helicopters and Plane before. Friends with too much time and money with Expensive Hobbies...

I'm saying that there were helicopter pilots who fly the types represented in ArmA saying that it's not possible in those specific types.

I have also flown fixed wing aircraft. They are not an analogue to rotary wing aircraft.

Quote[/b] ]

By no means is this Fllight Model that Bad. Hell if they can't seem to fix it I still enjoy flying in ArmA. The planes fly way better than BF2 for example. BF2 shouldn't even be called flying... when it comes to jets anyways. Now here's my only gripe. Believe it or not... BF2 Helos are a bit more accurate when it comes to the feel of flying a real helicopter... well more so than ArmA anyways... Now that's a bit sad...

And the actual military pilots also disagree with you on this. I think I'm going to side with them rather than some yahoo who has been at the controls once or twice. If you wish to argue, though, I would take it up with them since I am just parrotting facts they've given me and I have not their experience nor reasons for it.

[Maddmatt 1]

The flight model for planes in ArmA isn't that bad. Sure it's no simulation and it could be improved a bit, but it's pretty easy.

Dropping LGB bombs without a laser designating the target isn't actually that hard. I tried it a bit, and the massive amount of damage it does compensates for the inaccuracy. Just line it up and dive bomb the target.

Flying effectively barely even takes 1 hour to get used to. If you have a joystick that is, I don't care how they handle without a joystick since you can't really expect to fly a jet properly without a decent controller.

[bulletninja 0]

i wish someone would make a new a10, and make it combatable with 1.05 otherwise i cant play it. stupid patch.

i have to agree though, when i did play with the a10, it felt sort of strange, i cant imagine the a10 spining around so well, but falling to the ground so fast?

[Maddmatt 1]

i wish someone would make a new a10, and make it combatable with 1.05 otherwise i cant play it. stupid patch.

i have to agree though, when i did play with the a10, it felt sort of strange, i cant imagine the a10 spining around so well, but falling to the ground so fast?

It only falls to the ground when you slow down too much. A bit of practice, and learning to maintain speed (try to keep over 250kph) makes it pretty easy to fly. A plane needs speed to maintain lift.

The 1.08 patch should be out soon, so you probably don't have long to wait to get the A10.

[HamishUK 0]

Rather than say the A10 is better / worse go gather some proper technical data and present it to BIS.

Don't go by the LOMAC flight model either as that has already been discounted as innacurate by a few reliable former A10 pilots who used to post on the UBI forums.

Your perception of how an aicraft performs means very little unfortunatley. Facts are what is needed not hearsay!

Hmmm... That's odd, considering that the whole reason behind Black Sharks Delayed (over a year now) release is do to the fact that Eagle Dynamics was working on an A-10 Flight Simulator for the US Armed Forces.  There A-10 must have been pretty damn close to the real thing if they were hired to make a Flight Sim for the US...  

For the amount of Things this game offers, I can live with the flight model of the planes.  Besides, you know someone in this Bad Ass community is going to give us a better A-10 Addon anyways.

The only thing I which BIS would fix soon is the the Peddle (YAW) response on the Helos.  They should still respond even when moving foward at high speed.  

What's the A10 got to do with it? Eagle Dymanics was hired just like BIS was as it had the technology to make a decent simulator. You now telling me the Cobra is accurate in ArmA for a flight model?  If you bothered to read my post in the first place I had already indicated that the A10's FM was already declared innacurate some years back by exisiting pilots! Eagle Dynamics also released the Flaming Cliffs pack also citing a much more accurate representation of an aicrafts FM that was not possible with LOMAC's stock aircraft.:rolleyes:

Having flown in the RAF for a decade I can easily tell you that the A10's flight is no-where near to how an aircraft operates.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

You now telling me the Cobra is accurate in ArmA for a flight model? If you bothered to read my post in the first place I had already indicated that the A10's FM was already declared innacurate some years back by exisiting pilots! Eagle Dynamics also released the Flaming Cliffs pack also citing a much more accurate representation of an aicrafts FM that was not possible with LOMAC's stock aircraft.:rolleyes:

Having flown in the RAF for a decade I can easily tell you that the A10's flight is no-where near to how an aircraft operates.

I never once said that the Cobra or any Helo is accurately represented in ArmA... On the contrary, I know for a fact that they are far from it and understand the limits of the games engine. The Yaw can and will be fixed by the MOD community and anyone who's flown any Helo will tell you that you can YAW at any speed. I could care less if it's Military or Civilian. Might want to check on your reading.

The "so called Pilots" at the UBI forum were also found to be FRAUDS if you kept reading through the threads both at UBI and www.LockOn.ru. The few who actually flew the A-10 agreed that the plane was as close as a Game sold to the public would be to flying the real A-10. The A-10 didn't change much on FM in Flaming Cliff so you must not even play that game. The only thing that changed across the board on all planes in FM was weight response. The weight of fuel and armament was taken to account but the rest was untouched as far as FM. Of course Flaming Cliff also brought us the Advance FM for the Su-24.

Please don't preach to the preacher... If you even tried to check a bit further you would have noticed that I am quite aware as to what's happening with LockON from it's early stages till Black Shark. Hell, I was part of the A-10 discussion in UBI... I am all over the LockOn communities especially at UBI Forums.

Fact is Fact and in the real world, YAW will respond at any speed. One of the reasons why Helo's are so difficult to fly and why Plane can be put in to a Flat Spin.

[max power 21]

LOL. Planes don't go into a flat spin at any airspeed. In fact, you need next to no airspeed to instigate a flatspin. Man, did you just sell your credibility up the river.

[maddogx 13]

i wish someone would make a new a10, and make it combatable with 1.05 otherwise i cant play it. stupid patch.

i have to agree though, when i did play with the a10, it felt sort of strange, i cant imagine the a10 spining around so well, but falling to the ground so fast?

Ehm, the A10 from the 1.07 Beta does work in 1.05. I've tested it myself.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

LOL. Planes don't go into a flat spin at any airspeed. In fact, you need next to no airspeed to instigate a flatspin. Man, did you just sell your credibility up the river.

In ArmA you can't cause a Flat Spin... At All... Hens the Yaw is not as responsive as it should be in any Aircraft.

If you didn't know... which apparently you don't... one of the ways to put a plane into a Flat Spin involves Yaw (Rudder). In the military, Pilots are forced to induce a Flat Spin and recover from it as part of there training. Oh, yeah... you can also go into a Flat Spin while in high speed on a Jet. Let me know when you figure it out or Google it...LOL This way I'll be able to laugh at you for trying to be smarter than you apparently are.

I love this game and like I mentioned before... someone in the MOD community will improve on current Vanilla Aircrafts in ArmA. I hope WGL plans to come out with a realistic MOD for ArmA. SOON!!!

[max power 21]

LOL. Planes don't go into a flat spin at any airspeed. In fact, you need next to no airspeed to instigate a flatspin. Man, did you just sell your credibility up the river.

In ArmA you can't cause a Flat Spin... At All... Hens the Yaw is not as responsive as it should be in any Aircraft.

If you didn't know... which apparently you don't... one of the ways to put a plane into a Flat Spin involves Yaw (Rudder). In the military, Pilots are forced to induce a Flat Spin and recover from it as part of there training. Oh, yeah... you can also go into a Flat Spin while in high speed on a Jet. Let me know when you figure it out or Google it...LOL This way I'll be able to laugh at you for trying to be smarter than you apparently are.

I love this game and like I mentioned before... someone in the MOD community will improve on current Vanilla Aircrafts in ArmA. I hope WGL plans to come out with a realistic MOD for ArmA. SOON!!!

A flat spin is caused by one wing stalling before the other, and has little to do with the actual rudder authority of an aircraft, and much more to do with the stability. If an aircraft is performing an uncoordinated turn at low speeds, or if it has a source of gyroscopic precession, p effect, or other yawing or rolling forces caused by a propeller, and enters a high AoA where the wings stall, it may enter a spin. After that, if the recovery procedure is incorrect and/or if the aircraft has a C of G that is far aft, it may enter a flat spin from there. It has very little to do with rudder authority.

What you seem to be saying is that you can hammer on the rudder at any speed and enter a spin. That was wrong yesterday, it's wrong today, and it will be wrong tomorrow.

Furthermore, even if the flight model included aircraft with incredible rudder authority at all speeds, it is quite doubtful that things such as wingstalls and other effects are modelled in. Even if you could reverse 180 degrees in ArmA in mid flight, you would not have stall/spin behaviour. You cannot enter a spin in ArmA because the flightmodel isn't that detailed.

Please feel free to come back when you know what you're talking about.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

@ plaintiff1 (I see your Google is Strong... )

No, you just keep interpreting it this way. I never once said you can hammer the rudder at any speed and cause a Flat Spin... Hell, quote me when you find it... I did say you can use the rudder at any airspeed and get a hell of a lot more response than in ArmA and in a Helo... you can kick it sideways or at an angle and continue to fly at roughly the same speed. In ArmA... this is not possible. You just keep interpreting my comments as you see fit.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

buznee wrote:

Quote[/b] ]So far I have been really impressed with the handling characteristics of the ARMA helicopters.

There are a couple little things that bother me that are easy fixes.

First off, The collective takes a bit too long to respond, especially from takeoff. Almost all helicopters both turbine and piston are designed to operate at constant main rotor speed. Lift production is controlled by feathering (changing the pitch of the main rotor). Doing this is very fast therefore a change in climb rate should be more responsive than it currently is (even though ofcourse it is dependent upon mass since everything has inertia).

Also I see that no matter what, when on the ground, the dust blows around when the main rotor is turning. In reality in a collective pitch helicopter, this only occurs when the rotor is producing lift. Anotherwords it should kick more dust as the collective is pulled up higher. This would give a very cool experience in arma, you can tell when the pilot is starting lift off when you see the dust begin to kick. If possible you can even make the dust particle size and velocity proportional to the collective setting, just as it is currently dependent upon altitude, since downwash effects "dustkicking" increasingly at lower altitudes and ultimately goes away at higher altitudes.

Also there should be a saturation point in which too much collective is added and the rpm governer cannot hold the rpm therefore the tq goes to redline and the rpm begins to drop. This causes the pilot to input lots of rudder to counteract the torque from the main rotor. I know this is not supposed to be a helicopter sim but just things that would definately give the wow factor. A simple thing such as when you turn the engines on, you have to have the collective at the low setting if not the heli will not reach operating rpm and if you stay in the red line for tq you will overheat the engine and it will fail. This is something that definately can happen in a helicopter, it would be as simple as a tq dial showing green and red arcs, as long as you dont pull the collective to max, keep it in the 80-90% range then your engine will be fine. If you hit red, you'll start to shake, rpms will drop and if you dont bring it back down soon enough your engine will fail and you will have to autorotate.

One last thing in the flying characteristics is rudder becomes almost useless at moderate to high forward speeds. Eventhough a helicopter has a vertical tail it still has significantly more rudder control at forward speeds than what is currently modeled. This would allow fishtailing approaches in which the fuselage can be used as an "airbrake" for much better decelerations and you can use the cyclic in the side to side direction to slow the helicopter down and touch one skid at a time.

Being able to autorotate after tail rotor failure would be very cool too.

Another thing that helicopters have is translational lift. This is the main reason helicopters have wheels. At forwards speeds not too far from hover, the helicopter requires significantly less power to fly than in hover. Therefore allowing it to carry more loads. So if loads can be modeled in ARMA, you can overload your helicopter and still be able to takeoff by doing a rolling takeoff on the ground, and then land either a bit hard or do a rolling landing.

There are many more little things that can be improved but by just improving these items, it would definately make the helicopter experience much more enjoyable.

On a side note, for the harrier, adjustable nozzle control and linear power for any aircraft for that matter would be much better. It feels that currently most aircraft dont have very linear power with throttle control. Seems you add poewr and it goes from 0% to 100% and then it sorta moves around if you try to find a happy medium. It cant be that hard to just make it linear power. Then just change thrust output to downward, maybe helicopter flying characteristics when the nozzles are pointed downward and you can use throttle to control decent rate. This would be much more realistic. You could also keep the autohover for people that perfer that.

Finally... someone else who understands what I'm talking about. Granted, he's asking for a bit too much out of this game but hell, maybe someone in the MOD community can figure most of this out. I'm sure they will... I believe in this MOD comunity DAMNIT!

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]

Fact is Fact and in the real world, YAW will respond at any speed. One of the reasons why Helo's are so difficult to fly and why Plane can be put in to a Flat Spin.

I read that as:

Planes will yaw at any speed therefore they can enter flatspins.

The only way that this 'at any speed' part doesn't become completely redundant is if it's attributed to the conclusion. Otherwise what you are saying is that:

Planes will yaw [...] therefore they can enter flatspins.

In either case the conclusion isn't supported by the premise. So you're either saying something that's untrue, you're not saying anything at all, or you're not communicating what you're trying to say.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

Quote[/b] ]

Fact is Fact and in the real world, YAW will respond at any speed. One of the reasons why Helo's are so difficult to fly and why Plane can be put in to a Flat Spin.

I read that as:

Planes will yaw at any speed therefore they can enter flatspins.

The only way that this 'at any speed' part doesn't become completely redundant is if it's attributed to the conclusion. Otherwise what you are saying is that:

Planes will yaw [...] therefore they can enter flatspins.

In either case the conclusion isn't supported by the premise. So you're either saying something that's untrue, you're not saying anything at all, or you're not communicating what you're trying to say.

I see that you will continue to manipulate any comment I make in this tread and take it out of context to stroke your EGO. This will be my last response to you in this thread. Hopefully you'll have something constructive to add to this thread rather than Flame Bait.

[Pierrot 0]

I am optimistic about fixed wing flight model because BIS picked up our advice and have made a quite good job concerning chopper flight model. Fixed wing flight model will also make a good progress I guess!

BTW, one thing that concerns me is avionics. A-10 has TV in its cockpit and an image taken by Maverick is shown on the TV. A pilot can pan this camera, select targets through this TV and lock them on. The image is magnified to some extent to help pilots identifying targets. I don't want official A-10 addon to implement this function but I hope BIS prepare for these functions to let addon makers to implement them.

[max power 21]

@DRAKO

All I did was take the helicopter stuff out of the quote and substitute 'one of the reasons why' with 'therefore'. I don't see how I'm manipulating what you're trying to say.

@Pierrot

That would require a render-to-texture feature which the engine doesn't support at the moment.. but if you thought that arma is slow now, imagine rendering 2 arma scenes at once to the same screen!

Render-to-texture capabilities would really pave the way for a lot of cool stuff in ArmA.

[apex_predator 0]

Has anyone else noticed that the yaw axis is connected to the chase camera and not the aircraft CG? Seems to me a similar problem to the roll axis being placed above the rotor cone instead of the CG which was just fixed.

[max power 21]

The camera is fixed to the axis of rotation... the axis of rotation is not fixed to the camera. Helicopters yaw from a vertical axis that extends through the centre of the rotor hub.

[4 IN 1 0]

didnt they lower the axis below the rotor hub and above airframe CG in 1.07/1.08? i like that

[max power 21]

didnt they lower the axis below the rotor hub and above airframe CG in 1.07/1.08? i like that

Yes... but in this case the axis of yaw extends vertically downwards through the rotorhub... It has not changed, because it has no height, it's just a vertical hinge.

[apex_predator 0]

Quote[/b] ]Helicopters yaw from a vertical axis that extends through the centre of the rotor hub.

Yes, I am aware of that. My point was --and I suppose that it could simply be optical illusion-- when viewing from the chase camera the axis of rotation for yaw does not appear to run through the center of the rotor hub. It appears to be attached to the camera.