A10 Flight Model needs tweaking

[Fresh- 6]

A10 Flight Model needs tweaking

I've just flown the A10 for the first time and I'm disappointed with the flight model.

A wise man once said there can be no disappointment where there is no love.

As such, I would like to thank BIS for delivering a masterpiece of software genius which continues to blow my mind.

However, in terms of the A10 flight model, the aircraft feels underpowered and doesn't 'feel' like the wings are creating any lift. Also, the 'sink rate' is too great when power is pulled back, (before brakes appear). I've searched the forums and haven't seen any other comments regarding the A10 flight model, so perhaps I'm just nutZ.

Many years ago a company called 'Parsoft' released a game called 'A10 Cuba'. This was a simple flight simulation based in a virtual Guantanamo Bay Cuba. While it had rudimentary graphics compared to today’s standards, one thing which made it stand out was the realistic flight model. The way in which the plane flew through the virtual air was very convincing and realistic. The plane had 'lift'. I wish ARMA could emulate something similar.

I hope others will voice their thoughts regarding this and hopefully BIS can tweak the future flight model to reflect a more realistic model which generates more lift from the wings. Perhaps adding a key mapping for 'trim tabs' could help fix the problem.

And here are a few other comments which I hope other pilots will agree with:

In addition to tweaking the flight model, would it be possible to add the following features in regards to the controller setup:

Under the controller options, specifically for aircraft, would it be possible to add subclasses of aircraft, specifically 'helicopter' and 'airplanes'.

This would allow the player to map different setups for the throttle. My helicopter throttle mapping is the opposite of the airplane. Each time I enter either craft I have to go into options and change the mapping.

Additionally, when in the cockpit, by pressing the "Optics" (0_NUM) key, the cockpit view remains 'zoomed in', which is great in certain situations. Would it be possible to create a new mapping option which allows the pilot to also remain 'zoomed out'. In other words, when I press the -[NUM] key (zoom out), I get a better field of vision, but it doesn't stay unless I'm pressing the button. This zoomed out view allows for a better overall peripheral view of the cockpit which in my opinion is a bit more realistic and in some situations essential.

I hope these suggestions will be taken into consideration, as I believe that ARMA has the potential to evolve into an amazing and convincing flight sim in addition to the world's finest war simulation.

Cheers!

[Average Joe 0]

The Only thing the a10's got going for it right now is its looks.

[bobby budnick 0]

I would like to agree with the above points. In reality, A-10's have a very tight turning radius and aren't as likely to stall with their large wings. At air shows, several times I have seen them turning circles over the air field to demonstrate their ability to support troops easily. The A-10 in game flies like a rock.

[zootia 0]

A10 is fine. It's only sluggish when it first takes off but once you get some speed, it flies like a charm

[bobby budnick 0]

A10 is fine. It's only sluggish when it first takes off but once you get some speed, it flies like a charm

That's just it though. The real A-10 does not have to "get some speed". It's job is to provide ground support by flying low and slow. The A-10 in game just falls out of the sky when doing those maneuvers. Play Lock-on: Modern Air Combat for an example of how it should be able to fly.

Right now, the Harrier can turn much tighter is and actually better suited for these types of missions. The A-10 is only good for standing off firing mavericks or doing strafing runs. It is very difficult to stay "on station" with it.

[Fresh- 6]

I would have to agree with Bobby Budnick, the A10 flies like a rock. It doesn't have the proper lift characteristics. Zootia, you're right in the idea that it flies ok at higher speeds, but the A10 was designed to fly low and slow, which the flight model in ARMA doesn't allow for.

Furthmore, if the flight model was proper, the plane would lift off the runway by itself as it reached a certain speed. In most aircraft, the pilot sets the 'trim' to a takeoff configuration and when the aircraft reaches approx. takeoff speed it naturally rises and flies. I've done test with the A10 and I've found I can reach 120+ knots on the runway and it never lifts off. And speaking of speed, may I suggest BIS discontinue using KPH as the unit of measure in the top left corner and stick with Knots when it come to aircraft. (and feet instead of meters for Alt). You'll notice the A10's HUD shows the speed in knots while the top left speed indicator is in KPh.

Now, I'm not saying it isn't flyable, I'm suggesting that similar to the original chopper flight model, it needs serious revision.

Maybe BIS could add a 'trim' feature allowing to adjust the nose angle. I've noticed at slower speeds the nose dives if I let go of the stick. We should be able to adjust that.

I don't like flying rocks!

Cheers!

[max power 21]

Maybe a number of people who play lomac and fly the a10 can compare and contrast, but I don't feel the a10 flies like a rock! I fly il2 all of the time and it certainly isn't unmaneuverable. It's actually quite reactive.

[4 IN 1 0]

well its not about the agility from what it sounds for me, but instead the stall speed, the A10 in game could also do a tight turn if needed, but it lost a lots of speed and tents to stall or lost ATL even if there should be enought air speed, also if the aircraft get hited, it lost some power and it cant get up to speed fast enought(well you cant too IRL but here i think it should be a balance talk)

the A10 is much tougher in real world

[max power 21]

well its not about the agility from what it sounds for me, but instead the stall speed, the A10 in game could also do a tight turn if needed, but it lost a lots of speed and tents to stall or lost ATL even if there should be enought air speed, also if the aircraft get hited, it lost some power and it cant get up to speed fast enought(well you cant too IRL but here i think it should be a balance talk)

the A10 is much tougher in real world

I'm not sure I agree. I've been pasted by .50 cals overflying tanks before and come out quite unharmed. Multiple hits did nothing. It's hardly a risk to do that. The only thing you might have to worry about is running out of fuel eventually from minor leaks. The only time it becomes dangerous is if you keep getting shot over and over.

[maddogx 13]

Perhaps it would be a good idea for someone who is familiar with the A10s flight characteristics to create a small A10 addon with tweaked values.

If that is more accurate he could submit it to BIS and maybe they will change the vanilla A10 accordingly.

I can make addons but I don't know frak about A10 flight characteristics.

[4 IN 1 0]

well its not about the agility from what it sounds for me, but instead the stall speed, the A10 in game could also do a tight turn if needed, but it lost a lots of speed and tents to stall or lost ATL even if there should be enought air speed, also if the aircraft get hited, it lost some power and it cant get up to speed fast enought(well you cant too IRL but here i think it should be a balance talk)

the A10 is much tougher in real world

I'm not sure I agree.  I've been pasted by .50 cals overflying tanks before and come out quite unharmed.  Multiple hits did nothing.  It's hardly a risk to do that.  The only thing you might have to worry about is running out of fuel eventually from minor leaks.  The only time it becomes dangerous is if you keep getting shot over and over.

i dont have time to test it recently but maybe your right, anyway the plane just get easily stall even with flaps engaged

[max power 21]

Don't let your airspeed dip below 250 and that's no problem. Everyone here realizes how slow 250 km/h is in the aviation world, right?

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

Yeah, The flight Model of the A-10 could use some serious tweakin not to mention the Weapons and Payload load out. LOMAC Pilot...

[max power 21]

On simhq, they have an article called 'The History of the Fairchild/Republic a-10 Thunderbolt 2'. In part 2 of that article, they discuss its maneuver characteristics.

A reminder that the following velocities are indicated airspeed in knots. Those who don't know what's so special about indicated airspeed probably won't care about the answer.

Quote[/b] ]

Stall speed depends on a lot of things, but without flaps and at a weight of around 30.000 pounds it’s about 120 IAS.

120 knots is about 222.4 km/h.

Quote[/b] ]

Sustained turn radius at 1500 meters/5000 feet with 6 mk82s

No flaps

+ 200 398 meter/1305 feet

+ 250 568 meter/1864 feet

+ 300 792 meter/2598 feet

So, at 370 km/h (200 knots), the a-10 should be able to turn within 1/2 km with a light bomb load. Any attempts to turn tighter than that would slow the aircraft down, eventually resulting in a stall. I think this is about the behaviour we see in ArmA. I'm not saying that ArmA is a great flight sim, but the behaviour of the a-10 seems to be no more far off than any other unit in ArmA.

[wamingo 1]

I can't speak for joystick users, but if you fly with a keyboard/mouse it's difficult not to lose speed because pressing a key applys full 100% force instantly. Obviously that will not be good for your airspeed.

In Lockon, flying with a keyboard is a bit different.

ArmA applies 100% force on key press and resets the force to 0% on key release.

Lockon applies x% per second to the stick (maybe around 50%/s in one direction or 25% of the total) and only Roll resets where yaw (nose up/down) does not. This means you're allowed much greater precision in turn rate and can select a rate that doesn't dramatically bleed your speed. To get the a similar effect in ArmA you need to tap the key or use mouse and it's a great pain.

I would love if BIS cared to try making the mouse simulate a joystick or just adopt the lockon controls, but I'm sure neither will happen.

My knowledge on A10's and aeroplanes altogether are limited, but if Lockon is any indication then perhaps yes ArmA's A10 has slightly too low thrust on climbing and lift is a bit poor and such and such. But the plane basicly turns on a dime. The turn radius is maybe 2-3times smaller than in Lockon.

I do agree that it's annoying the plane pulls up a little when you're not touching the controls - I don't know if this applies to a joystick though. But I don't agree we need a trim control to make up for it. Trim is very painful to control on a keyboard.

But really, I think the flight model is too different altogether. In other words, if the A10 flies like a rock then so does the harrier.

[HamishUK 0]

Rather than say the A10 is better / worse go gather some proper technical data and present it to BIS.

Don't go by the LOMAC flight model either as that has already been discounted as innacurate by a few reliable former A10 pilots who used to post on the UBI forums.

Your perception of how an aicraft performs means very little unfortunatley. Facts are what is needed not hearsay!

[4 IN 1 0]

the problem is, you got to find one first

[wamingo 1]

BIS probably has good documentation you'll find.

[max power 21]

Likely they only use it as a loose guideline anyways since this game is not a flight simulator.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

Rather than say the A10 is better / worse go gather some proper technical data and present it to BIS.

Don't go by the LOMAC flight model either as that has already been discounted as innacurate by a few reliable former A10 pilots who used to post on the UBI forums.

Your perception of how an aicraft performs means very little unfortunatley. Facts are what is needed not hearsay!

Hmmm... That's odd, considering that the whole reason behind Black Sharks Delayed (over a year now) release is do to the fact that Eagle Dynamics was working on an A-10 Flight Simulator for the US Armed Forces. There A-10 must have been pretty damn close to the real thing if they were hired to make a Flight Sim for the US...

For the amount of Things this game offers, I can live with the flight model of the planes. Besides, you know someone in this Bad Ass community is going to give us a better A-10 Addon anyways.

The only thing I which BIS would fix soon is the the Peddle (YAW) response on the Helos. They should still respond even when moving foward at high speed.

[max power 21]

The only thing I which BIS would fix soon is the the Peddle (YAW) response on the Helos. They should still respond even when moving foward at high speed.

This has been discussed at length by american military helicopter pilots on this forum. They would tend to disagree with you.

[FAF_DRAKO 1]

The only thing I which BIS would fix soon is the the Peddle (YAW) response on the Helos. They should still respond even when moving foward at high speed.

This has been discussed at length by american military helicopter pilots on this forum. They would tend to disagree with you.

I have flown several helicopters and you have complete Yaw at any speed. You can go from flying at 80 to 120 mph while moving forward and kick the Helo sideways and continue flying sideways at same speed... you can't do this in ArmA.

Please try again...

Before you even bother asking... I am not a Licensed Pilot but I have flown both Helicopters and Plane before. Friends with too much time and money with Expensive Hobbies...

[mattxr 9]

I noticed when you do a few fast turns you loose a hell of a lot of speed and stall lol.

You have to learn not to do that though lol.

Although BIS have done an amazing job looking at the A10 videos then looking at the BIS A10 ... its awesome.

[Donnervogel 0]

Well ARMA/OFP is a crappy flight simulator... that's no surprise. I think aircraft like in OFP are only useful for looks, handled by AI (when supported with some scripts to make them useful) and for some nerds that actually learn to fly those things really well as I have seen amazing CAS support with the worst planes when the right player was flying it (not implying it was realistic but who cares). It was hard to fly planes well in OFP but some people could do it really well. I think that was pretty cool because not everyone was good so good pilots were actually something rare And having a player in MP flying in really slow an dropping that uniguided LGB with pinpoint precission on the AI really made me go "wow".

[mattxr 9]

Well ARMA/OFP is a crappy flight simulator... that's no surprise. I think aircraft like in OFP are only useful for looks, handled by AI (when supported with some scripts to make them useful) and for some nerds that actually learn to fly those things really well as I have seen amazing CAS support with the worst planes when the right player was flying it (not implying it was realistic but who cares). It was hard to fly planes well in OFP but some people could do it really well. I think that was pretty cool because not everyone was good so good pilots were actually something rare And having a player in MP flying in really slow an dropping that uniguided LGB with pinpoint precission on the AI really made me go "wow".

Thats Easy and for Us "Nerds" its not hard to learn at all so tech few hours practice and your there unless your completely useless in the first place.

I dont see anything wrong with the flight moddel.