Children in ArmA: Decency says no, so do PEGI

[Tankbuster 1746]

The thread that was started about having child characters in the game has been locked before I could gather the information for my reply so I'll start this one.

Discussion about having child characters in this game left me feeling distinctly uneasy. Frankly, I though some of the comments were quite unsavoury. I emailed PEGI (Pan European Game Information) who administer the ratings system for computer games. When it was released, they gave ArmA a 16+ which is fairly self explanatory. They replied this morning.

The game will get an 18+ rating if "Depictions of violence towards vulnerable human-like characters will include in particular women and children"

Note "women and children" They mean civilians in this context. I wonder if the reporter female character was in the initial release or has been added since in a patch?

Here's the closing 2 paragraphs of the email in their entirety.

Quote[/b] ]I can inform you that in the near future we will introduce a theme question tot our PEGI questionnaire. This question adds the possibility for a publisher to apply for a higher rating than it would get strictly based on its content, whenever he or she feels that according to the theme of a game it should. I can imagine this could apply in the case of violence towards children.

Another thing I can add to this is that the first release of Armed Assault was rated 16+. All games rated 16+ or 18+ are being thoroughly checked by the Video Standards Council before the game will be released. They will probably rate this game 18+ when it contains violence towards children.

So, they way I read it, it could "break" the 16+ classification if children are added and may lead to it getting an 18+ rating, as well as getting the VSC involved. I doubt BIS will want an 18+ rating on their game in Europe as it will decimate sales.

Here endth the lesson.

[Pathy 0]

There have been, during the existance of this forum, countless discussions over children in OFP/ArmA. Nothing has ever come of it.

It's nothing new, and it's nothing to get worked up over.

Oh and AFAIK the woman reported was just reported as having died, we never saw her die, so that does not constitute a 'depiction' of violence towards a female character.

[DaRat 0]

Doesn't really apply if you ask me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that rating can't apply to user created content can it?

Just because someone makes an offensive mod, the game itself won't get it's rating changed because it's not the developer's fault/ responsibility.

[Tankbuster 1746]

There have been, during the existance of this forum, countless discussions over children in OFP/ArmA. Nothing has ever come of it.

It's nothing new, and it's nothing to get worked up over.

Oh and AFAIK the woman reported was just reported as having died, we never saw her die, so that does not constitute a 'depiction' of violence towards a female character.

She's in the editor, so she's available.

Remember the GTA sex scene and what happened there?

[Zorbtek 0]

Thats interesting... I was wondering why they took out the female reporter cutscenes. Perhaps it was to do with the ESRB ratings?

[Tankbuster 1746]

Doesn't really apply if you ask me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that rating can't apply to user created content can it?

Just because someone makes an offensive mod, the game itself won't get it's rating changed because it's not the developer's fault/ responsibility.

I don't know. PEGI will have an opinion. I've replied to them by email and await clarification.

[Tankbuster 1746]

Thats interesting... I was wondering why they took out the female reporter cutscenes. Perhaps it was to do with the ESRB ratings?

Possibly. ESRB (I think) is the US equiv of PEGI?

What ESRB rating did it get?

[Zorbtek 0]

Pretty much

It got an M for mature rating. It might be ESRB, it might not. After seeing it's rated M I don't think it was ESRB.

I'm still curious as to why they went with these billboard cutscenes instead of the interviewer.

[Pathy 0]

Probably because she was annoying as hell?

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]The thread that was started about having child characters in the game has been locked before I could gather the information for my reply so I'll start this one.

hmm....

Quote[/b] ]Conclusion. I think you people who supported this are sick and BIS will almost certainly ban it.

Here endth the lesson.

With inflamatory gems like that, I have a funny feeling where this thread is headed

[Zorbtek 0]

In the german version I had an unnatural urge to shoot her in the face.

Her hands/fingers were also weird and long without the proper animations... Alien vs. Predator shit goin on.

I mean, I love women, don't get me wrong.  I have the utmost respect for them.  But shooting one in a digital world in the face and then lobbing a grenade on her for good measure is just plain funny.

It's all in fun, just remember that.  As long as you arent shooting real women in real life, what's the big problem?

Are you suggesting that games that allow violence towards women teach people/children to be harmful towards women? If so, that's like saying Pac-Man teaches people to eat as many Cheerios as they possibly can.

[Tankbuster 1746]

OK, in the US, the game got a "Mature" which means Blood, Strong violence and language. For it to have got an ESRB of "Adults only" it would have taken the inclusion of graphic sexual content.

Whereas in Europe, the inclusion of violence toward children would have been enough to lift it to the equivelent rating.

The ESRB make no mention of violence toward children.

At the end of the day, both the ESRB and PEGI have given the game the same rating, but in Europe, the inclusion of children would almost certainly raise that rating. In the US, it's much less clear cut.

[Tankbuster 1746]

Quote[/b] ]The thread that was started about having child characters in the game has been locked before I could gather the information for my reply so I'll start this one.

hmm....

Quote[/b] ]Conclusion. I think you people who supported this are sick and BIS will almost certainly ban it.

Here endth the lesson.

With inflamatory gems like that, I have a funny feeling where this thread is headed

Agreed. I'll edit it out if I can.

~

~

Done.

[xnodunitx 0]

Yeap, a rating jump, just another reason why this shouldn't happen.

I would also like to say that companies or people wouldn't care if it was just community created content, but thats usually not the case. Infact many people do not do their homework, they assume that because it is viewed as a screenshot from the game that it is then IN the game.

In all honesty I don't understand the "women" part, an adult is an adult in my point of view, its the children part that bothers me, male, female, again, an adult is an adult, if they are in uniform then they present a target, period.

[maddogx 13]

I think we are treading a really thin line here, and definitely shouldn't be calling people "sick" just because they want women/children in the game. I would personally like to see female civilians (and soldiers! ) in the game - not because I intend on killing them (not the civs anyway), but because it would add some more variety and realism to the game. Children civs are probably too controversial to be added, but I would not call someone "sick" for doing it via an addon.

Regarding the eMail from PEGI, it should be noted that a game depicting violence towards children would recieve an 18+ rating. One could argue here as to what actually constitutes a depiction of violence. If BI simply added the child models to the editor, they would not necessarily be depicting any violence toward them would they? It would still take a mission maker to create a mission in which this happens, but that wouldn't be BI's fault.

On a further note, this whole topic is really polarizing in nature, so it's no wonder the last one turned into a flame war. We should try and keep the discussion civil this time   .

[dm 9]

Doesn't really apply if you ask me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that rating can't apply to user created content can it?

Just because someone makes an offensive mod, the game itself won't get it's rating changed because it's not the developer's fault/ responsibility.

I don't know. PEGI will have an opinion. I've replied to them by email and await clarification.

PEGI/ESRB can only apply ratings according to the content provided by the creators of the product. Applying ratings according to what people MIGHT make or COULD download is ludicrous (and has never been done).

The "Hot Coffee" incident with GTA was because the content was already in the game, and simply required a little tweaking to unlock.

If BI adds children, then yes, the rating will go up. If addon makers add children, there is nothing PEGI/ESRB can do about it.

[Balschoiw 0]

Thx for taking the time to get official feedback on this Tankbuster.

Apart from the PEGI there are country dependant local government offices who also judge games by content. In germany´s case this is the Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien (BPjM)

They have a tradition of setting local stakes higher than paneuropean authorities. If a game is rated higher than 16year+ there is no advertising allowed and the software cannot be sold in public.

Some PC and console games are even forbidden in germany, some for their nazi symbols, some for the graphic depictzion of violence. Therefore a lot of publishers release different versions for the german market, that don´t have explicit gfx and/or nazi symbols for example.

A little excerpt from the list of forbidden games in the original version (not customized for german market):

Blood Rayne, Blood Rayne2

Command & Conquer Generals

El Matador

Far Cry

F.E.A.R

GTA Vice City

Hitman: Codename 47

Killer Instinct

Kingpin

Manhunt

Medal of Honor

Postal, Postal2

The Quake series

Red Faction

RTCW

Shellshock Nam

State of emergency

The punisher

You can still buy some of these games, as there are localized versions, that remove blood, turns it into green, remove limb features, remove explicit gfx, symbols, etc.

The current developement in germany is to hinder juveniles and teenagers from getting access to such games and maybe even if over 18 we will have a hard time to get games in question as they want to make it illegal.

This is the situation a software company has to live with today and apart from the morale issues that I see with adding such content to a "game" it will make it impossible for BIS to sell their product in germany anymore.

[Tankbuster 1746]

If BI simply added the child models to the editor, they would not necessarily be depicting any violence toward them would they?

I refer you to the GTA/Sex scene furore. Although the developers had buried it deep out of the default path, users could still get at it. I wonder how different BIS NOT telling us to not make children addons is?

[hoz 0]

Closing yet another topic about Children in game. These topics usually end in a flame fest, and therefore I will close this topic too.