ineffectiveness of aircraft vs tanks

[Scrub 0]

this may elighten a bit

http://63.99.108.76/forums....copters

OUCH!

Not a good day for helos...

120mm prox airburst munition M830

[whisper 0]

this may elighten a bit

http://63.99.108.76/forums....copters

Huhu, self explanatory

French and Belgian tankers I talked to are of the same opinion has posters in your link.

Thks for the link.

[gazmen 0]

1) Learn to fly and to play. 2) hellfires hit up to 5km - tested. 3) rambo movies and flying at 50m alt will get you killed.    

Mr. marine you ever saw the optics on the t72 turret? Obviously not, so go play berzerk or go to the editor and research. Velocity of sabot rounds? 1,4km/s to 1,8km/s. You=rambo? Obviously.

Learn to think, grunt.

So you agree that hit a chopper with main gun is possible, rather than use the AA 0,50

On the other hand, the AA Stinger and Strelas are clearly the most overpowered weapons. Impossible to evade since the beggining, and now in 1.07 UH60/Mi17 instantly explodes when hit.

This is a problem caused by the lack of support of furtivity to radar & ir value in CPP, also the plane & choppper don't have chaff, flare or radar scrambler...

What should be aded in CPP for plane & chopper : Furtivity_value_to_wave :

    - Acoustic

          furtivity_to_Sound= 3 (ear audible sound)

    - Sonic (Sonar)

          furtivity_to_Sonar= 3 (sonar)

    - Radar

          furtivity_to_RADAR = 1.2 (Radio Freq)

    - Micro Wave

          furtivity_to_MASER= 1.2 (Micro Wave freq)

    - Infra-Red

          furtivity_to_IR = 2

    - Psychic

          furtivity_to_Psy = 2  (detection by soldier & psy, sensation look UFO : Afterlife)

    - Visual

          furtivity_to_Eye= 2  (visual : recognizability standart light)

    - Laser,

    - Electromagnetique U.V

          furtivity_to_UV = 2

    - Electromagnetique Black Light

    - Electromagnetique X-Ray

          furtivity_to_XR = 2  (X-Ray)

    - Electromagnetique Gamma Ray

          furtivity_to_GR = 2  (Gamma Ray)

    - Electromagnetique Unknown

          furtivity_to_Electromagetic = 5 (other frequencys)

[frederf 0]

What I've learned from this thread:

1. Tanks do shoot down helicopters in real life, rather effectively too. Mostly combat simulations and a few scattered real life incident in history.

2. The best weapon for engaging a helicopter in a tank is the main gun, with the coaxial MG and the "AA" MG less effective.

3. A modern FCS is required to even have a chance at hitting anything but the most sitting duck helicopter.

4. The AI track and engage helicopters too fast and too well with machine guns compared reality.

5. AI pilots do not fly with the proper tactics enough to avoid tank MGs.

6. Human pilots in a AH-1 think they are God and are confused when ever shot

[Spectre867 0]

What I've learned from this thread:

1. Tanks do shoot down helicopters in real life, rather effectively too. Mostly combat simulations and a few scattered real life incident in history.

2. The best weapon for engaging a helicopter in a tank is the main gun, with the coaxial MG and the "AA" MG less effective.

3. A modern FCS is required to even have a chance at hitting anything but the most sitting duck helicopter.

4. The AI track and engage helicopters too fast and too well with machine guns compared reality.

5. AI pilots do not fly with the proper tactics enough to avoid tank MGs.

6. Human pilots in a AH-1 think they are God and are confused when ever shot  

agreed, but perhaps someone would like to enlighten me on how to fly then since im such a dumb ramboesque grunt. if im flying 1500 yds away, moving in at about 200 kmh, directly towards the enemy, since i cant see them or engage them at my current distance. i have my visibility settings set to about 1800. once i get within about 800 yds i am immediately shot down within a matter of seconds. ive tried staying close to the ground and outside of 1000 yds (kind of hard since they are moving towards me and my job is to kill them all before the overrun the base they are attacking) but i got hit my a main cannon shell. it took me about 15-20 tries to beat that mission and i only did after having to pee pee dancewith my helicopter at about 1000 yds while firing hellfires and i finished with less that 30% of my health left.

my point is, i think air support ought should be " '>' aka greater than" tanks. thats the way we deal with it in real life (if you run into armor, which you dont nowdays, but if you did, you call for help, which in most cases, means arty and/or air support) and thats the way it was in OFP.

[dreday 1]

What I've learned from this thread:

1. Tanks do shoot down helicopters in real life, rather effectively too. Mostly combat simulations and a few scattered real life incident in history.

2. The best weapon for engaging a helicopter in a tank is the main gun, with the coaxial MG and the "AA" MG less effective.

3. A modern FCS is required to even have a chance at hitting anything but the most sitting duck helicopter.

4. The AI track and engage helicopters too fast and too well with machine guns compared reality.

5. AI pilots do not fly with the proper tactics enough to avoid tank MGs.

6. Human pilots in a AH-1 think they are God and are confused when ever shot  

Yep, that's pretty much all there is to it. Next topic!

Peace,

DreDay

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

@ wisper: I have 1.07 5157 and at BerZerk I have more chances in Mi17/AH60 vs humans in MBT/AFV/MG then at other maps with AI in those mentioned weapons. As soon as weapon config allows AI to open up at me I am down.

So would you support a CR to make AI tracking behaviour more human?

[Spectre867 0]

1) Learn to fly and to play. 2) hellfires hit up to 5km - tested. 3) rambo movies and flying at 50m alt will get you killed.    

Mr. marine you ever saw the optics on the t72 turret? Obviously not, so go play berzerk or go to the editor and research. Velocity of sabot rounds? 1,4km/s to 1,8km/s. You=rambo? Obviously.

Learn to think, grunt.

Have any military service? Ever been to Iraq? Ever seen an AH-1Z in action? I'd like to know how you rate writing me off as a dumb rambo-wannabe grunt. I have come to expect responses like that in this forum, and maybe when I was 13 I would've done something similiar, but I'd just like to hear how you're qualified to make such generalizations. I started this thread to bring up the issue of tanks being overpowered against aircraft, and apparently I'm not the only one who has an issue with it.

I'm glad to admit, I don't know jack about tanks or their anti-aircraft capabilities, I've learned some things from this thread regarding that, but my point is that air support is effectively nullified whenever you have a couple of T-72s around, and I'm talking about the AI air support.

And my radar doesnt even detect the tanks at 5 km...

Overall I'd just like to see it go back to the way OFP was...tanks don't engage helicopters unless they are in visual range, and they aren't snipers with their co-axials. If there are Shilkas or stingers around, you're proably screwed. This allows for mission editors to have missions with air support without have to have that air support get destroyed by a couple T-72s. If the maker wants the aircraft to get shot down, just put a couple stingers in there.

I've gotten what I needed out of this thread so I'm not going to be responding any more. That, and I have better things to do with my time than argue with teenagers, so feel to flame now, but if any BIS personnell are reading this please do look into this issue if you haven't already and thoroughly test your missions involving helicopters because right now it is just ridiculous.

[frederf 0]

agreed, but perhaps someone would like to enlighten me on how to fly then since im such a dumb ramboesque grunt. if im flying 1500 yds away, moving in at about 200 kmh, directly towards the enemy, since i cant see them or engage them at my current distance. i have my visibility settings set to about 1800. once i get within about 800 yds i am immediately shot down within a matter of seconds. ive tried staying close to the ground and outside of 1000 yds (kind of hard since they are moving towards me and my job is to kill them all before the overrun the base they are attacking) but i got hit my a main cannon shell. it took me about 15-20 tries to beat that mission and i only did after having to pee pee dancewith my helicopter at about 1000 yds while firing hellfires and i finished with less that 30% of my health left.

my point is, i think air support ought should be " '>' aka greater than" tanks. thats the way we deal with it in real life (if you run into armor, which you dont nowdays, but if you did, you call for help, which in most cases, means arty and/or air support) and thats the way it was in OFP.

1800m view distance is one of your biggest hindrances. At this VD you and your enemy are going to get inside weapons' range of each other at about the same time. With a 4000m view distance you should get tank targets at 2500m or so for stand off capability.

You generally don't want to ever get inside 800 yards without a big blob of dirt between you and the target.

If you're playing the same mission I did, it probably plays very different in 1.07beta2 than when I did it a long time ago. I'm going try to load up that mission and play it to provide any tips.

It's probably kinda broken in 1.07, so don't feel you are a bad pilot or something. BIS is famous for setting up a few impossible encounters.

[Eldragon 0]

Another point worth considering:

Hellfire missiles are supposed to arc high into the air and then come straight down upon their targets. This has 2 advantages. First, tanks usually have thinner armor on the top. Second, the shot can bypass objects that would otherwise impede a direct line of sight shot (low hills, dug in tanks, trees, etc).

In ArmA, Hellfires are direct line of fire weapons. You need a clear line of sight to the target. Many MANY MANY times I have shot a hellfire at a target from 1200 meters only to have it hit something along the way. For the tank, this isn't as much of a problem. It is sending a wall of lead at the chopper. if a few bullets hit a tree, no problem.

So some would say, no problem! Fly at 200 meter altitude and 5000 meters out! PROBLEM: Flying at high altitude and far away might work when fighting the AI, but in the VS. servers, flying that high is just an invite to get a stinger missile shot at you. I have no problem flying under 50 meters at all times and not crashing. It keeps me from getting shot down quite well. When I get shot down its when I turn to point my guns at the enemy. They have an equal chance of hitting me, and my missile takes much longer to reach the target.

Flying Low and moving fast keeps a chopper alive both in ArmA and in real life. The problem is that the Chopper's best weapon, the Air to Ground missiles, do no behave as their real-life counterparts.

[frederf 0]

I couldn't unlock the campaign (thank you moderator for locking the thread about it with the "use the search feature!" despite the search not finding anything about how to unlock the campaign)

so I went into the editor and played around with 4x T72 and 1x Shilka and 1x AH-1Z. 1.07beta2.

Things I found out:

1. The old 3000m limit for keeping targets is gone. Currently you can keep a target TD'd up to 10000m.

2. One's ability to aquire a target is still a very short range without a human gunner with a sharp eye using the "reveal target" function. About 1500m with 10000m VD.

3. With default skills the enemy does practically snipe you out of the air with the coaxial MG. It would be much better if the T-72s used the main cannon instead of the coaxial.

4. Hellfires can hit from pretty far away. 5000m sounds reasonable during testing. The real ones have a max of about 8km.

5. The enemy tanks showed up in the target list well before they were able to be cycled. I think it's because they had engines off, thus were not red squares.

6. The radar picked them up at 3000-4000m as white dots. Again a human gunner could use the reveal target function probably to get true stand off shots.

7. A one-to-two second burst of MG fire was enough to bring down an AH-1.

EDIT: High arc flight path missiles would definitely help. They managed to get the Javelin to do it, no reason the Hellfire can't as well.

EDIT2: They actually didn't do it with the Javelin. It tracks direct. The only "arc" is due to the initial firing angle and the resulting arc is tiny compared to the real arc.

[Le++ 0]

I think we have two issues confused here – the effectiveness of MBT's weapons in engaging helicopters and slow and low flying jets and the gunnery skill of the AI.

I'm pretty sure everyone is convinced by now that MBT can indeed effectively take down helicopters, either with a 0.5 MG or the main cannon. The 0.5 is probably limited to around 1km, but the main cannon is designed to accurately hit tank sized targets at around 4km. A helicopter hovering within range of the main cannon is as easy to target as a tank. Would a tank crew actually fire on a helicopter? It's probably has more to do with the rules of engagement than actual capability.

Now, about the gunnery of the AI – this point has been discussed here quite often (although not for vehicle gunners), and most people here agree that the AI is too accurate. I haven't tested the AI's ability to take out the pilots of helicopters from 800 meters, but it does sound unreasonable. Although the gunner can aim the coax MG with the main FCS, I doubt such precision could be reached, even with a 0.5 MG.

And as a general reply to most people here – the tactical use of aircraft and vehicles in ArmA is rarely fully realized. Tanks fight in WWII distances, and aircraft engage targets from 500 meters (this applies to both the AI and most players). A more realistic battle would involve the tanks engaging from up to 3.5-4km, helicopters popping up from behind hills at 3km to fire missiles and jets flying high above the battle field (and since long range SAMs are not available in ArmA yet, they're pretty invincible). As some people have said, if you except to fly within visual range of a HMG and not get shot, you're doing something wrong.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Another thread I opened was closed. Mainly the odd dirty optics hindering the far distance fighting.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

1) Learn to fly and to play. 2) hellfires hit up to 5km - tested. 3) rambo movies and flying at 50m alt will get you killed.    

Mr. marine you ever saw the optics on the t72 turret? Obviously not, so go play berzerk or go to the editor and research. Velocity of sabot rounds? 1,4km/s to 1,8km/s. You=rambo? Obviously.

Learn to think, grunt.

Have any military service? Ever been to Iraq? Ever seen an AH-1Z in action? I'd like to know how you rate writing me off as a dumb rambo-wannabe grunt. I have come to expect responses like that in this forum, and maybe when I was 13 I would've done something similiar, but I'd just like to hear how you're qualified to make such generalizations. I started this thread to bring up the issue of tanks being overpowered against aircraft, and apparently I'm not the only one who has an issue with it.

I'm glad to admit, I don't know jack about tanks or their anti-aircraft capabilities, I've learned some things from this thread regarding that, but my point is that air support is effectively nullified whenever you have a couple of T-72s around, and I'm talking about the AI air support.

And my radar doesnt even detect the tanks at 5 km...

Overall I'd just like to see it go back to the way OFP was...tanks don't engage helicopters unless they are in visual range, and they aren't snipers with their co-axials. If there are Shilkas or stingers around, you're proably screwed. This allows for mission editors to have missions with air support without have to have that air support get destroyed by a couple T-72s. If the maker wants the aircraft to get shot down, just put a couple stingers in there.

I've gotten what I needed out of this thread so I'm not going to be responding any more. That, and I have better things to do with my time than argue with teenagers, so feel to flame now, but if any BIS personnell are reading this please do look into this issue if you haven't already and thoroughly test your missions involving helicopters because right now it is just ridiculous.

I don't give a sh.t who or what you are, nor where you've been.

In iraq you are fighting monkeys with rpgs, so you can afford air support at 300m. without it getting raped.

As for AI - you go to the bug tracking system, not whine here. If you are playing 1.05, prepare for 1.07 rape since shilkas will be useless and tanks will rule the battlefield (land & air) no matter what you bring.

[privateguba 0]

On OFP I have a mission to test all AA addons and new jets/copters.

It`s basically a template for a west or east base on Nogova`s desert airport full with all AA I could download. (East seems to have much more AA addons BTW. Tugunka, SA-13, MTLB variants, SZU, ZPU...)

With this base, head on attacks are suicide. While I can normally `tangent` OFP`s shilkas, estrelas and T-80s .50, this base burns me in a few seconds (Even without Tugunskas (=> monsters)).

Thanks to this I learned pop-up-and-down on the little hill near Petrovice.

For a flight sim buff this super AI tank gunners is great gameplay enhancer.

The obvious trouble is AI air support is useless. They can`t use the most basic of tactics.

Does this mean that the AI planes can`t dogfight as well? They still only curve left or right the whole day? No vertical maneuvers?

[Heavy Metal 0]

The Coax gun on a T-72 is the 7.62x54r PKT and on the M-1 it is the M-240 7.62x51. These should do no more than tickle a Super Cobra at anything but close range.

The .51 caliber ruskie and the .50 caliber us guns in the commander's cupolas are not easy to elevate and traverse against a chopper, especially while the TC is buttoned up.

[frederf 0]

If armor is going to be able to be such a threat out to 1500m to a helicopter, than the range at which armor is cycle-targetable is going to have to be increased to about 2500-3000m.

That an AH-1 can get a hard radar target (cycle able) at about the same range as tanks and light armor are targeting the helicopter is pretty ridiculous. I tested this all with 10000m view distance.

Once I get a lock with a AH-1 I can fly 9999m away and keep the lock no problem, but I had to fly very close to get the cycle target to lock up the armor in the first place. Maybe it was because they weren't moving, but still.

[Heavy Metal 0]

I think we have two issues confused here – the effectiveness of MBT's weapons in engaging helicopters and slow and low flying jets and the gunnery skill of the AI.

I'm pretty sure everyone is convinced by now that MBT can indeed effectively take down helicopters, either with a 0.5 MG or the main cannon. The 0.5 is probably limited to around 1km, but the main cannon is designed to accurately hit tank sized targets at around 4km. A helicopter hovering within range of the main cannon is as easy to target as a tank. Would a tank crew actually fire on a helicopter? It's probably has more to do with the rules of engagement than actual capability.

Now, about the gunnery of the AI – this point has been discussed here quite often (although not for vehicle gunners), and most people here agree that the AI is too accurate. I haven't tested the AI's ability to take out the pilots of helicopters from 800 meters, but it does sound unreasonable. Although the gunner can aim the coax MG with the main FCS, I doubt such precision could be reached, even with a 0.5 MG.

And as a general reply to most people here – the tactical use of aircraft and vehicles in ArmA is rarely fully realized. Tanks fight in WWII distances, and aircraft engage targets from 500 meters (this applies to both the AI and most players). A more realistic battle would involve the tanks engaging from up to 3.5-4km, helicopters popping up from behind hills at 3km to fire missiles and jets flying high above the battle field (and since long range SAMs are not available in ArmA yet, they're pretty invincible). As some people have said, if you except to fly within visual range of a HMG and not get shot, you're doing something wrong.

Hitting a tank on the ground at 4km with the main gun would be a challenge even for an M-1, much less a helicopter which generally presents a far smaller cross section than a tank.

There is a reason why armies use shilkias and other short range anti-air weapons and its because tanks are mediocre at protecting themselves against air attacks. The big ground to air radar on these weapons give them the eyes to see the target for starters.

Let me tell you as someone who has been inside an Abrams (unit armorer for an armored Cav Regiment, worked on the ma duce and the M-240), thru the periscopes in the vision blocks, it is no picnic to be able to see outside.

This is a gripe of mine when playing armed assault. Tracked vehicles can see someone lying still in the grass even when they have not moved a as much as a finger, much less fired a shot.

In real life you would be lucky to see them if you were walking on foot.

[gazmen 0]

It`s basically a template for a west or east base on Nogova`s desert airport full with all AA I could download. (East seems to have much more AA addons BTW. Tugunka, SA-13, MTLB variants, SZU, ZPU...)

With this base, head on attacks are self-killing. While I can normally `tangent` OFP`s shilkas, estrelas and T-80s .50, this base burns me in a few seconds (Even without Tugunskas (=> monsters)).

Well nobody will air-attack a base without sending first Black Op to recon & to burn defense with C4 or to mark target (1985)...

Now, 2007, Marking target could be done with G.P.S recon sat... After all, in OFP campaign, James Gastovski was send to blow up air defense, after that begin the A-10 air assault...

Also this was in 1985 now they probably send Tomahawk, to those target... Rather than sending plane with real people inside...

I had made a map using BOH tomahawk destroying dozen AA defense tungunska & shilka... Since the limitation of OFP engine, the Tunguska & Shilka attack on target at time, so if you send 3 tomahawk for each AA-tank at same time, the AA base defense would surely be cleaned...

I don't know the cost of a tomahawk but even launching four of them for a target well be cheaper than sending an F35 or AH64...

[icebreakr 3140]

In v1.07b5157 tanks are way too dangerous for aircraft. We just finished a mission where 3 t72s and 1 bmp fired at our flymen like they were on a freakin' starwars deathstar... way too agressive and precise with their guns.

[D-scythe 0]

The .50 cal is not really an AA weapon - it's really only good for giving away your position. Most choppers are armored up to 23 mm, and it's not like from 900 m you'd be able to aim for a specific part of the chopper anyway. The fact that it is a very poor weapon against aircraft should be modelled in ArmA.

The primary anti-helicopter weapon is the main cannon. It is superior to the .50 cal in almost every respect in this role. Tank gunners can reliably target helicopters with their gun and get great results, as it's not terribly difficult to keep their LRFs on target. Therefore, if a gunship decides to unmask itself to a tank at close range, it's pretty much good bye for the chopper.

[max power 21]

Another point worth considering:

Hellfire missiles are supposed to arc high into the air and then come straight down upon their targets. This has 2 advantages. First, tanks usually have thinner armor on the top. Second, the shot can bypass objects that would otherwise impede a direct line of sight shot (low hills, dug in tanks, trees, etc).

In ArmA, Hellfires are direct line of fire weapons. You need a clear line of sight to the target. Many MANY MANY times I have shot a hellfire at a target from 1200 meters only to have it hit something along the way. For the tank, this isn't as much of a problem. It is sending a wall of lead at the chopper. if a few bullets hit a tree, no problem.

So some would say, no problem! Fly at 200 meter altitude and 5000 meters out! PROBLEM: Flying at high altitude and far away might work when fighting the AI, but in the VS. servers, flying that high is just an invite to get a stinger missile shot at you. I have no problem flying under 50 meters at all times and not crashing. It keeps me from getting shot down quite well. When I get shot down its when I turn to point my guns at the enemy. They have an equal chance of hitting me, and my missile takes much longer to reach the target.

Flying Low and moving fast keeps a chopper alive both in ArmA and in real life. The problem is that the Chopper's best weapon, the Air to Ground missiles, do no behave as their real-life counterparts.

There's all kinds of different firing modes with hellfire. The seeker heads you would see on the cobra would be the laser guided variety that need SOMEONE to have direct line of sight. LOBL mode is mostly flat for helicopters who lase their own targets. They do all top attack, though.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

@ Heavy metal:

The Russians mounted NSV and later Kord intentional onto the turret on a remote controlled mount with optics specially designed for AA. But it was considering the fact that a tank would never be alone so the expected result was to hindering an attacking copter within the range to aim with FFAR because copter pilot is forced to make crazy Iwan to avoid MG fire. The MG was mounted in a way to cover the dead angle above the tank and to compensate the low turret turn speed for the main gun. Russian tankers always advised to use main gun if no other ground thread for far distance. Here in ArmA they use the turret MG as first choice even in long distance.

But if someone would make now a T80 addon with time fused AA rounds for the main gun, pilots little chance would go down to ZERO :-)

[max power 21]

The .50 cal is not really an AA weapon - it's really only good for giving away your position. Most choppers are armored up to 23 mm, and it's not like from 900 m you'd be able to aim for a specific part of the chopper anyway. The fact that it is a very poor weapon against aircraft should be modelled in ArmA.

The primary anti-helicopter weapon is the main cannon. It is superior to the .50 cal in almost every respect in this role. Tank gunners can reliably target helicopters with their gun and get great results, as it's not terribly difficult to keep their LRFs on target. Therefore, if a gunship decides to unmask itself to a tank at close range, it's pretty much good bye for the chopper.

This doesnt' mean they are invulnerable to .50 cal at all aspects. And let's not forget the aspect of supression. No pilot is going to stick around to get shot up by tanks.

[whisper 0]

I think we have two issues confused here – the effectiveness of MBT's weapons in engaging helicopters and slow and low flying jets and the gunnery skill of the AI.

I'm pretty sure everyone is convinced by now that MBT can indeed effectively take down helicopters, either with a 0.5 MG or the main cannon. The 0.5 is probably limited to around 1km, but the main cannon is designed to accurately hit tank sized targets at around 4km. A helicopter hovering within range of the main cannon is as easy to target as a tank. Would a tank crew actually fire on a helicopter? It's probably has more to do with the rules of engagement than actual capability.

Now, about the gunnery of the AI – this point has been discussed here quite often (although not for vehicle gunners), and most people here agree that the AI is too accurate. I haven't tested the AI's ability to take out the pilots of helicopters from 800 meters, but it does sound unreasonable. Although the gunner can aim the coax MG with the main FCS, I doubt such precision could be reached, even with a 0.5 MG.

And as a general reply to most people here – the tactical use of aircraft and vehicles in ArmA is rarely fully realized. Tanks fight in WWII distances, and aircraft engage targets from 500 meters (this applies to both the AI and most players). A more realistic battle would involve the tanks engaging from up to 3.5-4km, helicopters popping up from behind hills at 3km to fire missiles and jets flying high above the battle field (and since long range SAMs are not available in ArmA yet, they're pretty invincible). As some people have said, if you except to fly within visual range of a HMG and not get shot, you're doing something wrong.

Hitting a tank on the ground at 4km with the main gun would be a challenge even for an M-1, much less a helicopter which generally presents a far smaller cross section than a tank.

There is a reason why armies use shilkias and other short range anti-air weapons and its because tanks are mediocre at protecting themselves against air attacks. The big ground to air radar on these weapons give them the eyes to see the target for starters.

Let me tell you as someone who has been inside an Abrams (unit armorer for an armored Cav Regiment, worked on the ma duce and the M-240), thru the periscopes in the vision blocks, it is no picnic to be able to see outside.

This is a gripe of mine when playing armed assault. Tracked vehicles can see someone lying still in the grass even when they have not moved a as much as a finger, much less fired a shot.

In real life you would be lucky to see them if you were walking on foot.

AFAIK helicopters light up in IR frequency like no other vehicle and are easily spotted this way.

2500m distance vision of a chopper :

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4268/hpim1031rb3.jpg

The same in thermal vision :

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7690/hpim1045jb7.jpg

The biggest issue for people here getting shot down by tanks is range. A minimal view distance is required.

I play 1.07 beta with 5km VD, I tested yesterday, a rather big engagement, 20 tanks vs 20 tanks + shilkas & Vulcan (3 each side) with default skill (0.5), me in a Ka-50 as air support.

Engaging from mountain cover at around 2500/2000m (farther away I found my missiles unreliable, too low hit ratio).

I barely got shot at, even by Vulcans, 1 opened up and missed me badly. 9 out of my 12 missiles found their target, meaning I took out 7 tanks and 2 shilkas single-handedly.

If that is not proper Air Support, I don't know what it is.

This is no boasting, I consider myself average at best, just showing that with the proper parameters, you ARE deadly in a chopper, and AI reaction is really not good.

It also means that AI in a chopper will practically never be good in the attack role, seeing how it behaves at the moment.

That tanks MG (and MG in general) are a lil bit too precise, why not. But I don't think that hinders player helicopters that much, and I'm afraid too much aiming imprecision or a complete removal of MG shooting at choppers would make player helicopter way too powerfull (and easy).