East block helicopters

[Törni 0]

I have been playing around with the mission editor and noticed how passive the MI-17 and Kamov for some reason are compared to Cobras and other western helos.

So far I have not been able to improve their performance.

They seem to attack randomly even ignoring targets in open, whilst cobras engage enemy targets just about with any oder.

What is going on in here? Kamovs just won't fire at infantry targets and it is a miracle if you see see a MI-17 to fire rockets.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Kamovs just won't fire at infantry targets

I guess part of the problem is that the cannon on the BIS Kamov is fixed and cannot target free like the cannons and guns on Blackhawk and Cobra.

[Törni 0]

How about MI-17? It won't fire at the infantry targets or pretty much does not fire at all (with rockets).

I even placed some target units on the airfield to make them as vulnerable as possible. But helos just fly over infantry ignoring them most of the time.

This seems to happen no matter how high the skill level is or what orders I give to helos with waypoints.

Plus the helos do not use any kind of cover provided by the surrounding terrain (pop-up attacks etc.)

Am I missing something here?

[JdB 151]

Plus the helos do not use any kind of cover provided by the surrounding terrain (pop-up attacks etc.)

Armed Assault is not a dedicated helicopter simulator, I doubt even tanks will perform real life tactics ingame such as firing from cover and using the terrain to shield themselves from the enemy. Armed Assault can do alot, but it can't do anything 100% perfectly

Also the tactics you describe are used by Apaches, Cobras and Hinds are designed to go in low and fast instead of fighting at a distance.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]How about MI-17? It won't fire at the infantry targets or pretty much does not fire at all (with rockets).

Rockets are for hard targets, so unless you make the infantry units in question an uberthreat to the MI it won´t fire rockets on them.

Quote[/b] ]Plus the helos do not use any kind of cover provided by the surrounding terrain (pop-up attacks etc.)

I guess that´s simply above the things that can be done in a game like Arma. I guess if something like had tried to be implemented we would experience an endless row of explosions caused by AI that tried to hide their helo somewhere.

Not practicable imo.

You can however try to force them on your own by using the "flyinheight" command that forces helos to keep a certain height on their flightpath.

I´ve played around with a Cobra and a Blackhawk yesterday and gave them detailed flyinheigt waypoints in an urban scenario. It worked very well and unlike in OFP none of the helos crashed into anything.

What still is a bit bad is the delay time for AI when switching waypoints. I guess improvements could be made there.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt even tanks will perform real life tactics ingame such as firing from cover and using the terrain to shield themselves from the enemy.

I see a chance there as there is the FSM editor that allows us to program own AI for separate units. The only question is how much more load it will put on the engine and the comp.

I´m fiddling around with the FSM editor but to be honest I have not been able to get some significant changes running.

[Blanco 0]

Quote[/b] ]You can however try to force them on your own by using the "flyinheight" command that forces helos to keep a certain height on their flightpath.

Did you know that a "choppername flyinheight 1" command followed by a MOVE waypoint keeps them on the ground with engines on?

That works in OFP too, but choppers got damaged because the really want to reach that waypoint.

In Arma the pilot don't try to fly at that height, so he stays on the ground like a brick. Very usefull for ectractions.

[Törni 0]

But Cobras are OK at the moment. They enegage enemy targets. Everything from the east is currently almost useless.

It would seem that for some reason helos don't spot infantry targets very often even in the open.

Have to carry on experimenting.

[Blanco 0]

Have you tried the invisible targets from the MAPfact_misc addon yet?

[Greg147 0]

I've had no problems getting Mi17 to engage infantry with its PKM. I simply set up a mission where a pair of Mi17s unloaded cargo onto a pair of invisible H's, and then put acouple of enemy infantry squads on the ground. As the choppers went in, the gunners opened fire fine.

Although this was with v1.02 than I made this mission. Not sure if anything in the latest patches might have changed anything to affect the choppers.

[Fred DM 0]

i've noticed that with the AH-6 as well, it won't attack infantry (don't know about vehicles, haven't tried).

in the campaign, there's a mission in which you have to kill an enemy officer with your sniper rifle. when you've done that, the enemy Kamov helicopter will start and hunt you from the air, but it never actually opens fire!

i guess the AI helicopters can't target infantry with weapons fixed in one direction. the Cobra's machine gun can move, so can the door guns in the transport choppers.

[Törni 0]

Back from a quick test. As soon as there are some vehicles in the mix things start to happen. But still there is a huge difference between western and eastern helos behavior.

[Törni 0]

MAPfact_misc addon???

What's that?

[Blanco 0]

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=70;t=58052

It contains invisble targets and much more.

[Balschoiw 0]

I guess your question has already been answered :

1. MI does engage infantry with machinegun (just tested on my own with patch 1.05)

2. MI does not open fire with rockets on infantry as they are soft targets. Rockets are fired on hard targets though. Makes sense to me.

3. Kamov´s cannon is fixed. Pilot can only fire when helo is pointing directly at the target. This needs very precise helo steering. At all speeds above limited the Kamov has problems with it which is just natural. (I hope that BIS finds a solution to this even if it would mean assisted/automated targetting with onboard computers. Else the powerful cannon is rendered almost useless.)

4. Kamov´s unguided rockets are used on hard targets aswell.

5. West chopper Cobra has a gunner that cann freely aim with cannon. That´s why it engages infantry more often and has no limitations of gun movement like the Kamov has.

6. Blackhawk gatling works as it´s supposed to work, just like the machinegun on the MI but with a better maneuver ability for the pilot because of the helos weight and inair behaviour. Therefore blackhawks are able to attack infantry more efficient as it is now.

7. Littlebirds gatling seems to be flawed.

[Fred DM 0]

7. Littlebirds gatling seems to be flawed.

so you could not get them to attack infantry, either?

if one wanted to make a mission involving some Little Birds doing strafing runs against enemy infantry, how would one go about that if the choppers don't attack automatically?

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/hydra-70.htm

The war reserve unitary and cargo warheads are used for anti-materiel, anti-personnel, and suppression missions. The Hydra 70 family of Folding-Fin Aerial Rockets (FFAR) also includes smoke screening, illumination, and training warheads. These rockets are used by rotary, wing, fixed and ground platforms. The most widely used application is on helicopters for air-to-ground engagements.

FFAR's aren't for hard targets in real life. They are for soft skinned targets. I'm not sure how this translates into arma, though. I use them mainly for putting the hurt on trucks and stuff.

[Törni 0]

I was designing a mission where specops attack a village guarded by mechanised recon units. They were supposed to be backed-up by a helo or two, but so far they have proven to be next to useless.

[simba 0]

My impression is that the new flight model of helicopters makes it hard for them to engage with fixed weapons, that's why they never shoot.

Heli AI must be modified to fix this problem.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]FFAR's aren't for hard targets in real life.

I know, but even in OFP air units only made use of them against infantry if the ammo for cannon was depleted or infantry posed a high threat (rating).

You can bypass that by script though, both in OFP and Arma.

Quote[/b] ]if one wanted to make a mission involving some Little Birds doing strafing runs against enemy infantry, how would one go about that if the choppers don't attack automatically?

Force them by using, reveal, dotarget, dofire in a script that reads out the content of a trigger covering the scence and lists the enemy units.

[Törni 0]

Tried it several times with these target types from the mod. The effects are random to say at least.

Cobras seem to engage only infantry targets with the mod and leave alone laser, armored or infrared targets. Strange...

And they only use cannon for firing

[Törni 0]

After an extensive testing here are the results (under AI piloting):

- MI-17 and Blackhawk - ok, engage soft targets with MG

- Kamov - attacks only vehicles, won't use cannons. AFVs get attacked almost everytime.

- MH-6 and MI-17 with rockets are next to useless - targets are spotted, but helos only rarely open fire

- Cobras best all-around. Engage targets under most situations

Infantry is peretty safe what comes to helos even when moving in the open. They only rarely take many casualties if no vehicles are nearby.