stop

[sanctuary 19]

Quote[/b] ]Profession <--------> Hobby

People that only have a little free time can't produce the same level of quality within the same timeframe as someone that does a 9 to 5, 5 days a week (and often alot more).

Exactly, there is a huge difference with the expectation you can have.

When it comes to BIS, i pay for the game, i don't recieve BIS work as a gift , as i gave them my money for it.

When it comes to an addon maker, i recieve it for free from someone that 99% of the time has a family, has a job out of this that often have nothing to do with computer modelling and texturing.

So i can't have the same expectations from a paid professional and someone that create something for free especially when it is far away from his job.

[Sennacherib 0]

Quote[/b] ]well, you criticize BIS, because, a guy don't have a real weapon (it's an example), but whe nyou see a bad addon, you can't say the same thing. my question is why?

Profession <--------> Hobby

People that only have a little free time can't produce the same level of quality within the same timeframe as someone that does a 9 to 5, 5 days a week (and often alot more).

hobby= crap? sorry but i have a job, a familly, i'm 32 years old. but when i want a texture, i can spend 1 or 2 week on it.

Quote[/b] ] Posted on Oct. 29 2006,22:50

Quote (D@nte @ Oct. 30 2006,01:47)

we have a lot of addons "studios". but please take a look at their works:

- not shadow

- no dust or mud etc

sorry but i can't say wow amazing. why do you want to see criticisms?

Why dont you get permission to edit thier textures and edit the details on yourself.

because i'm not a pro, and i can't change all the textures.

you want realistic stuff, but you don't want criticisms.you want realistic stuff, but you don't want criticisms. it's all. what i can say more.

if you don't want criticisms, stop to put in your sigs:

- 3d artist

- 2d artis

- studio blabla

- blabla studio

3d blabla studio

- 2d blabla studio

etc

[Taku 0]

fu all

[JdB 151]

Quote[/b] ]hobby= crap? sorry but i have a job, a familly, i'm 32 years old. but when i want a texture, i can spend 1 or 2 week on it.

Did you even read my reply?

I said that someone that does gamedesign for a living has the entire working day available for making something where as most addonmakers do not (Sanctuary explained further). I can give an example of a non professional. Marcel from Inv44 had a free day, so he did a weaponmodel, mapping and 1024X1024 texture in about the equivilant to an average working day. When he has little few time it takes a few days.

The same stuff takes me alot more time due to a difference in skill. Alot of addonmakers have less skill and less time then professional gamedesigners, but that doesn't mean they should just "stop" showing off their work. You can't comment on what you can't see. They have every right to include 2D or 3D artist in their sigs, everyone is perfectly capable to judge how far their skills have progressed, and as long as they keep improving their skills then I don't see why they shouldn't.

It's the effort that is worth praising, not necessarelly the result.

Not everyone starts out as a master...

I don't see criticism, all I see is a rant...

[Sennacherib 0]

i don't want to hurt the ofp "community"; i just want not "pro" stuff, but just good things. you want the best from BIS, but you accept the worse from the community. hobby is not an excuse. if you are interested in 3d modelling or texturing, you can't accept bad textures or bad models, because in game it's just crap.

I am harsh for myself. take look at my scifi thread. i have tank in game; but i'm not happy; i redo all the textures. even with a old engine like ofp, it's possible to make great things; they just need a lot of work.

[Sennacherib 0]

Quote[/b] ]Did you even read my reply?

same question for you.

you don't know my history in ofp:

i was a player, i tried to make 3d model, i joines the ww2ec team, i left the ww2ec team to learn photoshop and the 3d modelling (1 year). i became. i learnt a lot of things. here when you post a tip, the guys doesn't want to see it. personally, without FAB and Red Devil my ofp skills would be a heap of ship like at the beginning, thx to us.

this is the same thing for you; you want the best, but you don't wna t ot explain/. you prefer to keep your secrets and put in your sig "artist". a community should be a huge of help not individual claim.

I am struck per as much claim.

[Sennacherib 0]

This must be the worst topic on this forum so far....

thx for me, it's a compliment. because i say the truth.

[Journeyman 0]

There is an old saying here in England that I have always held close to my heart: Never look a gift horse in the mouth!

It of course refers to a time when a horse was a valuable commodity and having a really healthy one was everyone’s wish! If I was then too buy a horse I would need to look it in the mouth to see if it was in a healthy state. But if someone then goes and says "Hey mate I got a horse for ya! I don't want anything for it it's yours mate! You want it?" ... What should I do ...  run up to it examine it in the mouth, see all the signs of imperfect health and say "I don't want this fucking horse its got bad breath! Gimme a horse with good breath will ya you f**cking t*sser!"

Or maybe D@nte that is just the difference between your culture and mine!  

[Sennacherib 0]

my culture is the welsh, scottish and irish culture; nothing is black or white, but that can be gray. nothing is finished, it can be improved.

[JdB 151]

Quote[/b] ]without FAB and Red Devil my ofp skills would be a heap of ship like at the beginning, thx to us.

The same goes for me and Marcel (and others like Kenji, Jojimbo and Hottentottenmike, thanks alot). That's what I meant. You learn alot more from people that are in the same area of expertise (OFP/gamedevelopment), then looking at high definition renders and specialFX developed by people that spend their time doing this for blockbusters, commercials or high-end 3D, where "nothing" is too much, as long as it looks good. Yes, these sites can be usefull, but most of it goes way beyond most of the work you'll ever do in modmaking or gamedesign.

I post plenty of advice, but I only do it with people that I know, or for mods that I care about. Yes, not wanting to get into a bitch fight is a tiny reason behind this, but for the most it's because it is already included in so many tutorials. I rather recomment people using tutorials or guides to improve their skills then explaining stuff myself.

[NeMeSiS 11]

...

D@nte, alot of addonmakers enjoy the 'making' part of their addons, but they give the opportunity to people to enjoy playing their addons, even if it turns out to be a pile of shit and the community thinks its awfull then it still doenst really matter. They enjoy making addons and they are proud of it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Ofcourse they are not as good as 'professionals', but for people with such limited time to work on it they are doing a great job.

and how in godsname do you even try to compare it with those (beautifully made) 3d models? OFP addonmakers dont even try to create something that looks remotely like that because we all know that is impossible. And yes, 99,9% of our addonmakes cant make such nice things, but hey, they can and do make things we can enjoy, which is something they can be proud of.

Quote[/b] ]you prefer to keep your secrets and put in your sig "artist". a  community should be a huge of help not individual claim.

The OFP is one of the most helpful communities ever, and who cares if i put '.cpp artist' or something in my sig? That would make me any less/more helpful then i am now, it would just show that im proud of what i do

(People, never try to ctrl+r when you try to 'redo' something when you ctrl+z'ed something, i lost my whole post )

[Messiah 2]

@Messiah. ????????, a good mode is not 150000000000000000000000000000000000000000 faces; a good model is just a model with no shape problems (missing faces, double faces etc).

see, this is a little different to how many of us are reading your comments - you've compared these very talented 3dsmax guys to our work, and then said 'when you can do this, then you can call yourself a 3d/2d artist)

i agree that simple things like missing faces, stretched textures etc are bad in addons, and for the more experienced, are purely lazy mistakes, you're quite correct about this - arma, as far as i've been told, wont accept stretched textures etc - bulldozer will refuse to load unless the faces are fixed - this should cut out alot of these lazy mistakes. Dust scratches and shading is also a personal gripe i share... some choose to leave it off and we have to accept it.

but as i said before, you cant compare 3dsmax renders with ingame ofp addons - its an entirely different ballpark, and its not something you can put next to each other and comment on. I'm still amazed with what people can achieve with the ofp engine today.

Quote[/b] ]ok. so you can understand what i mean. personally i use autocad, architectural desktop, revit, allplan etc. for your projects, you don't use a 1500000000000000000000 faces, but the job must be good, i mean real?

yes, of course it must look good - we have a pooled computer room of around 40 pc's, each with dual processors and alot of memory. I normally work in that room in the early hours of the morning, so that i can use the network to render 3dsmax alot quicker.... with my final renders, with 10 pc's networking to render, im still sitting there for a considerable amount of time. My work needs to look proffesional If i am to be employed.

with ofp this isnt the point. 3dsmax looks good because of the systems it employs. It is designed to make 3d renders look as good as possible, given a decent level of profficiency by the user and a knowledge of good lighting.

take those 'amazing' 3d models and port them to p3d - without all the smoke and mirrors that 3dsmax offers us, it will look utterly shit in bulldozer... these are the bare facts - at the end of the day, the engine doing the rendering is the game engine, not the 3dsmax engine... hence the model can only ever look as good as the game engine allows. All these people who show 3dsmax renders of their models for ofp, I always ask for a bulldozer render... its amazing to see how bad some of these models really are, and 3dsmax makes anything look good.

Quote[/b] ]well, you criticize BIS, because, a guy don't have a real weapon (it's an example), but when you see a bad addon, you can't say the same thing. my question is why?

me personally criticize BIS? I've offered my knowledge on subjects via PM to placebo, but 99% of my arma posts are in defence of those ignorant children who keep moaning about release dates.

I refuse to bother posting constructive criticism on these forums these days, as all you ever get is a barrage of people telling you to shut up. Its a dead end. My last attempt at helping a member on these forums (helping hand) ended with him telling me in short to mind my own business and to naff off, even though i was attempting to offer some advice with his cam paint on 'his' weapons. You can't win on these forums.

Quote[/b] ]

BIs is a pro team, me and you are nothing in the game bussiness, so we must stay at our place. BIS dooesn't need lessons, but us, yep sure we need leesons.

yes they are, but the grounding factor is that arma still uses O2 to make addons... and again they can model everything in 3dsmax (I am led to believe this is the case, or at least the UV mapping is done so) but its still exported to O2, and it loses all the pretty effects that 3dsmax offers.

I'm deffinatly a nothing, but I have/am doing my fair share of proffesional work in this sector. You need to look past 3dsmax renders. Anyone on this forum can follow a tutorial and create a beautiful 3dsmax render in a day. I again would challenge those guys you linked to to come use a 5 year old, outdated graphics engine and achieve 50% of the quality that addon teams like OWP acheive on their choppers without their snazy lighting effects.

[JdB 151]

I'd rather look to the future now (ArmA), then trying to make stuff look good on a 5 year old engine (even if you set the Self-Illumination - Color to 100 in the Material Editor, you still can't notice the horrible things OFP does to your textures compared to MAX, and the lack of sharp/smooth edges that OFP needs). MAX is even more suited to ArmA then to OFP, already the modelling and mapping are superiour to Oxygen. With ArmA there will hardly be a difference between MAX and ArmA in terms of looks of the addon.

[Daniel 0]

Right, apologies in advance but I couldn't bring myself to read the last few posts in this thread, just seemed to be going in circles. This is my view on this thread.

D@nte seems to be saying that there is no harm in giving constructive criticism on peoples work and explaining to them how to make it better. Fair point.

Everyone else seems to be saying we shouldn't be too harsh on people who create addons for our pleasure in their spare time. Fair point.

I agree with both these notions.

Goodnight.  

EDIT: Should have read Messiah's posts... Well I have now, and agree with everything he's posted.

[Sennacherib 0]

Quote[/b] ]with ofp this isnt the point. 3dsmax looks good because of the systems it employs. It is designed to make 3d renders look as good as possible, given a decent level of profficiency by the user and a knowledge of good lighting.

why i use the 3ds max renderer, or even pov ray (which is free)?

because i copy the lighting in photoshop. ofp can't use real specular level etc. but i copy that from X 3d model. sorry but i'm not a lazzy guy.

you can use anim8tor, moray etc you make great textures, with alow poly models. but you are lazy, and pretentious, you don't want to learn; good luck to BIS to support this community.

if you can make a sjob like BIS stop to post your crap. it's simple. because in a lot of addon, we have faces problems (hol, double faces), bad uvwmapping etc. sorry in advance.

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]with ofp this isnt the point. 3dsmax looks good because of the systems it employs. It is designed to make 3d renders look as good as possible, given a decent level of profficiency by the user and a knowledge of good lighting.

why i use the 3ds max renderer, or even pov ray (which is free)?

because i copy the lighting in photoshop. ofp can't use real specular level etc. but i copy that from X 3d model. sorry but i'm not a lazzy guy.

now thats a clever way of going about it, working out realistic texture lighting using 3dsmax as template... im not saying you;re lazy, but im saying that 3ds max as a rendering utilty offers alot of lazy options to make things look alot prettier than O2 could ever acheive, and lowers the required level of skill put into making textures look nice.

Quote[/b] ]you can use anim8tor, moray etc you make great textures, with alow poly models. but you are lazy, and pretentious, you don't want to learn; good luck to BIS to support this community.

perhaps im lost in translation, but are you call me lazy and pretentious? I do want to and have learnt how to improve my skills in all aspects of 3d rendering... without it i'm unemployed, I'm not exactly the right guy to be calling lazy given the workload my course entails, and im not sure how you've gotten the notion that im pretentious... i dont see anything in my sig calling myself a 3d/2d artist or belonging to a studio, nor have i waded in calling myself the king of all addon makers.

If you're going to insult me for no specific reason, then I'll be done with this discussion.

Quote[/b] ]if you can make a sjob like BIS stop to post your crap.

again, you've lost me with your writing... what are you getting? My addons are crap?

Quote[/b] ] it's simple. because in a lot of addon, we have faces problems (hol, double faces), bad uvwmapping etc. sorry in advance.

yes, very true and I agree that alot of addons have their faults, but even more are truely amazing pieces of craftmanship given the tools and the engine. You're right that these issues need to be adressed, and again you're right its for those who know how to make a good addon to share their knowledge, but in the same respect its also up to the addon makers to know when to ask for help, and not try and save face by ignoring criticism and offers of help.

[sniperuk02 0]

This is fun to watch.

Ps: Hammer time.

[Sennacherib 0]

sorry Messiah, it wasn't for you, but for the whole community.

yeah, i know the great job of your mod. yeah i use great, because their mod is great:

- great textures

- great models

- great shadow on the textures.

and i'm a fan of your addons, take a loook at your topic; sorry it's a disagreement. take a look at my scifi thread, somewhere i said my admiration for your mod.

Quote[/b] ]yes, very true and I agree that alot of addons have their faults, but even more are truely amazing pieces of craftmanship given the tools and the engine. You're right that these issues need to be adressed, and again you're right its for those who know how to make a good addon to share their knowledge, but in the same respect its also up to the addon makers to know when to ask for help, and not try and save face by ignoring criticism and offers of help.

yeah, but none want to hear the truth example:

- your model has some problems, missing faces

- your textures are stretched

- the uvmapping is bad etc

and even with bad models, you see in the sigs artist bla bla bla.

sorry, but i have a problem with that. as i said nothing is really finished. and most of you want to see in your topics:

- great

- awesome

- amazing

etc;

when it's impossible to say that. i'm a hobbyist in 3d job, but sorry i don't want to make crap models.

it's my opinion, but if you like double faces, hole in model, stretched textures, bad textures, bad uvmapping. ofp is for you.

if you want to learn oxygen, there are a lot of tuts, even for the gizmo mapping, but none wants to learn. this is the same thing for the photoshop stuff. Marfy's stuff are outdated, so please take a look at the photoshop tuts. i know, it's hard, but when you have a great result, it's really cool.

for now; i stop my scifi project for ofp (not for Arma, because the textures are ready with bump mapping, blend etc). you are not able to understand the 3d modelling, and texturing, all my wishes for BIS. like they said in ofp "God help us all".

[NeMeSiS 11]

but none wants to learn.

Either that, or people just arent as talented as you, so they dont meet your high-quality standards. Now there is nothing wrong with having high standards, but noone is perfect. And most modders try really hard (why wouldnt they? They usually find it fun to make them). But lets just take a look at Philcommdo's addons..

Pirates? -check

Working swordfighting which is actually fun to play with? -check

Working horses? -check

Still, his addons seem to get little attention because they look bad, low-poly units, blurry textures etc. Still, he did a very good job on those addons and he invested alot of time in it, you might not see it on the outside, but hey, not everyone is a graphics whore?

Still, if PC would walk around with a 'engine limit breaker' badge then i wouldnt care, he can be proud of what he did because he tried and gave us something to enjoy, like all addonmakers do. Trying to make textures makes you an artist, no matter if they look great or not. And if you give your addons to other people so they can enjoy them you didn't do anything bad and you can be a little proud, and they show that by putting what they do in their sig.

Ps, dont really care if you read this or not, just had to get it out

[Sennacherib 0]

sorry double post; i hate numericable

[Sennacherib 0]

just a new thing. Sentry and Shinkansen pm me. i'm not a liar:

Shinkansen

Advanced Member

Group: Members

Posts: 279

Joined: May 2004

Posted: Oct. 16 2006,10:30

Hi, seeing your very well made scifi-tank i want to ask if you too have an interest in warhammer 40.000 made by spad. In his package are a lot of interesting things that sometimes need some final touches and a space ork addon that is fully functional "only" missing a texture. So I would like to ask if you want to go for the texture for this addon.

Looking forward to hearing from you

Bodo (Shinkansen)

Sen†ry ˛°°ł

Advanced Member

Group: Members

Posts: 142

Joined: Dec. 2004

Posted: Oct. 07 2006,12:41

Hi D@nte

I've saw your nice work at your SCI-FI project, I love to see that people do sci fi projects and not only real military things

Btw, i have to say your texturing work is really nice

And so i go on to my question.

Im the project leader of the Tiberian Genesis Mod (maybe you know that mod) We are a modification which will redo the game Command & Conquer Tiberian Sun into a 3d game, first it was OFP, now we will do it for Armed Assault. And we are searching of course new members, like Texture Artists and Skinners.

Our community isnt that big, because no one knows us :P or just some people.

I would like to ask you, if you have got any interests to join us as texture artist, its hard to find people in that skill you have in texturing.

For more infos:

Here is our Homepage

http://www.tiberian-genesis.com

If you have interests or you would like to have more informations, PM me back, or send me an email:

Email:yipey88@hotmail.com

MSN: yipey88@hotmail.com

-Sen†ry ˛°°ł

sorry Sentry and Shikansen. but i need you pm

what i want to show is:

original post from ww2ec: my first work:

well the new texture for the house: this is my own work (not the windows)

and now:

a pic from o2. this prog is really weird, i didn't have any problems to import the whole model. :wacko:

original from ww2ec.

it's not difficult to learn.

[Sennacherib 0]

but none wants to learn.

Either that, or people just arent as talented as you, so they dont meet your high-quality standards. Now there is nothing wrong with having high standards, but noone is perfect. And most modders try really hard (why wouldnt they? They usually find it fun to make them). But lets just take a look at Philcommdo's addons..

Pirates? -check

Working swordfighting which is actually fun to play with? -check

Working horses? -check

Still, his addons seem to get little attention because they look bad, low-poly units, blurry textures etc. Still, he did a very good job on those addons and he invested alot of time in it, you might not see it on the outside, but hey, not everyone is a graphics whore?

Still, if PC would walk around with a 'engine limit breaker' badge then i wouldnt care, he can be proud of what he did because he tried and gave us something to enjoy, like all addonmakers do. Trying to make textures makes you an artist, no matter if they look great or not. And if you give your addons to other people so they can enjoy them you didn't do anything bad and you can be a little proud, and they show that by putting what they do in their sig.

Ps, dont really care if you read this or not, just had to get it out

hey dude, i read all the post; i use actually philcommando's (pc storm rider) addons. i like his imagination; but i'm sure, he can make better textures.

Quote[/b] ]Either that, or people just arent as talented as you

why you said that. i'm talented, i just try to make like BIS.

Quote[/b] ]o they dont meet your high-quality standards. Now there is nothing wrong

my standards are the modern standards for games.

PC addons in my opinion are really great, because his guy use his imagination, and make his best. but with great atextures, his addons would be a must to have;

btw i learnt a lot of thing with his PC apu. thx to him.

[NeMeSiS 11]

my standards are the modern standards for games.

PC addons in my opinion are really great, because his guy use his imagination, and make his best. but with great atextures, his addons would be a must to have;

Well i just used PC as an example that nice graphics arent necessarily needed.

Wha you seem to forget is that you cant just put modern game standards in OFP, modern games have several advantages (normal mapping, shaders, blabla you already know it) and OFP was never made too look good to begin with. Generally addonmakes do a very good job if you compare it with vanilla OFP, or at least they try to. And they can be proud of what they do (because of reason said in the previous 2 posts), so if they want to call themselves 'artist' to express their proudness then let them, they deserved it.

EDIT: I cant spell/write anymore, im off to bed..

[Sennacherib 0]

yeah, i know, but you can copy that with photoshop, it's not difficult with good tuts.

the problem is:

hey, i want realistic stuff from ofp, but yeah poor stuf from community is great. it's not difficult o add a dark layer in photoshop, psp or the gimp to simulate the shadows, and use bevel and emboss to simulate bump maaping.

take a look at my textures. the old and the new one. sorry but i'm not a genious, but i can learn like you.

[-Snafu- 77]

You just seem to be gloryfying yourself now by posting those two PM's.

What you going on about culture for, you know the culture's of Wales, Scotland, England, N.Ireland?

Do you encourage people to criticise your work?

No, those are not rhetorical questions.

Your complaining about people criticsing BIS work on ArmA, you feel that BIS should not be criticised because they are professionals? That's stupid.

Remember when you are criticising and OFP modders work that they do this as a hobby. They spend hours learning to create addons for OFP for the community to enjoy. Thus should be criticised tactfully.