Formations - Hopes and Discussion

[CsonkaPityu 0]

If you think that formation is somekind stiff moving mass of men, you have caught it totaly wrong.

Well, i was kind of talking about OFP, so yea in OFP a formation is a stiff moving mass of men.

Quote[/b] ]Modern combat isn't too much diffrent from WW2, fire power and equipment has changed, assaults aren't that important (more like slaugther) as they used to be, as whole platoons might be wiped out.

Modern combat has changed a lot, infantry combat engagement ranges are down from 600 meters to around 300ish. 1 in every 10k bullets is a hit, the rest is suppressive fire/missed. Infantrymen carry around a bunch of lightweight 5.56 ammo, instead of the heavy ammo used in conflicts before.

The helicopter alone brings whole new dimensions to troop deployment and airsupport. These things are more then just equipment changes.

But we shouldn't drag the thread further offtopic, so lets go to PM or leave it at that.

Troops still move around in relation to eachother, but anyways, i guess i should correct myself in that those precise formations used by Flashpoint aren't used in modern combat (or in any combat i guess).

[mr reality 0]

I'd like to see an "align on me" command to instantly re-align a squad's formation on my facing.

This is also something i would like to see.

When commanding a 12 man squad i often encountered a problem where my men in a line formation would not line up correctly. Only half of my squad did any firing. This occured when i came to a crest of a hill and i would crawl to look over it but my men either went over the crest or where too low to see over the top. This resulted in me having to move further forward putting myself and half my squad in more danger just so the other men could return fire. Or i would have to individually order the men to certain positions which took far too much time.

Another problem i encountered was when i had my squad on "stealth", they would leave the formation to find cover even if it meant venturing further towards the enemy position.

I will admit that my least favorite part of flashpoint is controling a squad as i just think the current system is too "clumsy", along with my general crappiness to remember certain keys for orders. Infact the only squad control system i could use was the Brothers in arms.

Modern combat has changed a lot, infantry combat engagement ranges are down from 600 meters to around 300ish. 1 in every 10k bullets is a hit, the rest is suppressive fire/missed. Infantrymen carry around a bunch of lightweight 5.56 ammo, instead of the heavy ammo used in conflicts before

This i believe is the American way of doing things. As an ex-British soldier we were told to provide suppresive fire but also conserve our ammunition. Meaning to fire enough rounds to keep the enemies heads down-but aimed shots at the area of threat, not just spray and pray yank style....Also i would say the range has increased not decreased. It only seems that way as the current hostilities have been urban ones.

[Second 0]

Yes. 12 men is just too big, first firefight and some are propably killed just because you can't command all of them. I've noticed that some six men + leader is best. You can relatively quickly order each one to their spots. Still enough firepower and treshold of casualities.

That formation thing is intresting, they are either too strick with formation, or don't give a damn. Reason why combat behaviour doen't necessary suit for defence. Some men can wander even 200 meters front of they leader. Trying to put infantry squad in to forest safe (or in ambush) from armors and soon some goosehead is moving just outside forest 'I didn't find cover from forest but from here certainly!'. I'd say that more behaviour models. defence behaviour, ambush behaviour, combat with 'keep formation' behaviour, aware with 'don't give damn about formations' etc...

I think it is intendent in OFP that squads have formed somelike 3-level line. one or two front(spotters), then some three to two men(cover for spotters) and then rest of squad with leader(what the heck their meaning is?) and sometimes there is guy behind squadleader. Reason why i wasn't overjoyed of version 1.96. 1.91 didn't have this feature, if i remeber correctly.

Formations can be kept as they are in OFP (well mens distances to each other should be increased). More models for behaviour. And my newest idea would be waypoint in which you can order squad to spread to ~100 meters line, forming long defence line.

Helicopters have replaced gilders, everything has been boosted to be more efficent (more or less). but everything in modern combat has been used in WW2 in one form or in some other. plain infantry work isn't diffrent from WW2. Only some tactical manuvers are changed, like i said assaults can be very-very devastating but they've been that in WW2 too. MY dad's dad (over 60 years ago in WW2) and Finnish volunteer in Bosnia, have same things to tell, they've been through same hell. As high-tech and missiles entered the ring that doesn't change the fact that in forests they are useless and tired old grunt is still alive and kicking. At open plains combined arms works like in WW2, basics are still the same only balances change from time to time.

[funnyguy1 0]

Well, those formations we had in ofp (despite the fact that AI couldn`t use them, or let`s say couldn`t imitate using them an behave like they know what they should do) were good when It comes to open spaces/forests, generally not urban areas.

No matter what types of formations they`ll implement, and no matter If ArmA will feature improoved CQB, ofp needs two different styles of commanding your squad one for urbanized areas (techniques used in such environment almost don`t exist in ofp now) and for natural environment like forests etc.

And when It comes to urbanized areas, especially big urbanized areas in BIS next gen productions visit the big cities in game2 topick.

[Second 0]

No matter what types of formations they`ll implement, and no matter If ArmA will feature improoved CQB, ofp needs two different styles of commanding your squad one for urbanized areas (techniques used in such environment almost don`t exist in ofp now) and for natural environment like forests etc.

And for that i believe we won't get realistic CQBs in ArmA. Is it too hard to implent? But then again some countries uses still the same old 'molotov coctail to that window and then we wait for house to burn down. Here have a sausage'-techique. Or 'Let's get here a decent 12.7mm machinegun and rock that house full of holes'-techique.

I simply can't believe that ArmA could developed to that. Two sets of different command-stuctures or it gets just too complicated. How you determe when one is on and other off. We have Rainbow Six and others for that, why ArmA should try, as for its engine it will surely fail comparing to CQB-designed games.

I think that they only improve AI in CQB, which is fine by me.

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Well, they could change the command system to something less exact then in flashpoint. This, coupled with a smarter AI could make things less complicated. Not like i have experience but i find it weird how precisely you can order your men around. Some AI with common sense and more general commands would make commanding your squad easier (easier said then coded, i know).

Anyways, i'm curious what system BIS will implement.

[Ukraineboy 0]

And for that i believe we won't get realistic CQBs in ArmA. Is it too hard to implent? But then again some countries uses still the same old 'molotov coctail to that window and then we wait for house to burn down. Here have a sausage'-techique. Or 'Let's get here a decent 12.7mm machinegun and rock that house full of holes'-techique.

To be honest, most players if they had the decision:

1.) Risk losing men, and time in clearing a house

or

2.) Blow up the house with a tank round

Our game doesn't really have morals or Public Relations disasters. Heck, in game many of the people I play with, including me, kill civilians for the heck of it. It's a game, so I'd rather blow up that building then clear it room by room and get slaughtered in the process by well entrenched soldiers. Heck, just yesterday we were playing a mission, and I had extra RPGs, so I shot one at a civilian tractor with a guy inside (Amazingly, he survived, and not even with broken legs! I dont think I hit the tractor head on, it might have hit the ground beside it).

Anyways, we'll get CQB, but only with human players. But me, in the overall tactical way, it'll be better to blow up the building, or throw a few grenades in, then to storm it. We dont have huge sky scrapers or buildings with dozens of rooms in our game so real CQB isnt needed. The houses we'll be fighting in will have maybe tops 5-6 rooms.

[Second 0]

Ukraineboy hit the spot with that one. Just as i think of it. As there will surely be not much of civilians in towns.

There was some allmost obsolent commands in menu like flankings, but then again, some guys use them. I use very much advance and stay back. Some might use flankings and others.

I liked commanding men to their precise spots. But it gets too glumsy if there were more men than 6 + me, and so i got killed those who were too much If AI would behave so that they look good spots for themselves i'd be happy. If i could order 'firezones' to them, where they have to be able to see/shoot and then they would look good cover themselves by concerning that 'firezone'. That would be like in realworld, very simple and good. But like said: easy to say, not so easy to code.

[stainer 0]

If i could order 'firezones' to them, where they have to be able to see/shoot and then they would look good cover themselves by concerning that 'firezone'.

Isn't that the "Watch Direction" command? You can order your men to watch a certain direction (funny that   ) but it takes bloody ages if you've got a 12 man squad.

Also I think if you look carefully when the AI are in formation they do face certain angles according to their position in the squad (at least I think they do...)

[NeMeSiS 11]

but it takes bloody ages if you've got a 12 man squad.

select the unit(s) you want to watch a direction, hold ALT, click in the direction you want them to look. Only takes a few seconds that way

[evilnate 0]

Fire team sqauds and leap frog covering would be awesome! Some of the best AI options i've seen are in Ghost Recon - go suppresive fire!

Making AI inteligent enough to clear a house without waypoints would be a feat. I hope BIS is giving themselves enough time to get the AI as smart as our hardware will allow.

[Second 0]

Isn't that the "Watch Direction" command? You can order your men to watch a certain direction (funny that ) but it takes bloody ages if you've got a 12 man squad.

Also I think if you look carefully when the AI are in formation they do face certain angles according to their position in the squad (at least I think they do...)

Okay seemed that i didn't make myself enough clear. I'm meaning that you can point location forexample at your map. let's think this kind of situation:

men are in line formation on hilly terrain. There are too much blindspots behind hill, scatteres trees, long grass. Now i can simply think that i want men 1,3,6 to watch location behind hill. 2,4,5 to sensor area behind trees. I click these spots at map and order 'this is your firezone' and i don't need to scan all elevation lines from the map to determe to where men should be ordered to 'move' that those areas are under their observation. They would now (in 'firezones'-order) search their positions according my order, which is that they need to see this 'firezone'. And i can be sure that men will see the area and i don't need to go to look it myself.

Plain 'watch' order gives them only direction to look, but they stay where they are.

This is most important in behindlines action, as every time as movement stops, men should secure the perimetre, to make sure that whole squad isn't surprised. Expacely in hilly areas, as hills have round shapes. And you don't know if man can see from spot A to spot B without checking it yourself. It is also good improvement for organizing defence for large area. Then again how AI would use it... Don't know.

ps. This would be in reallife mostly arraged in platoon/company level, so squads should takes care of these 'firezones' (well situations change), but in ArmA we won't get platoon level commanding. So squads in ArmA are the main operating unit.

[sniper pilot 36]

but it takes bloody ages if you've got a 12 man squad.

select the unit(s) you want to watch a direction, hold ALT, click in the direction you want them to look. Only takes a few seconds that way

plus if the squads that big, seperate the squad with color.

Red team watch 12 o'clock

Blue Team watch 3 o'clock

and so on, before the mission i always do that.

edit: Ah yes I now understand, yes firezones would be faster and more effective /edit

[stainer 0]

select the unit(s) you want to watch a direction, hold ALT, click in the direction you want them to look. Only takes a few seconds that way

Oh didn't know that, cheers!

[alx 20]

I just want there to be some randomness in the way the soldiers move. When they all move at precisely the same time and at precisely the same speed like their all on a string, it just kills the immersion. I know this kind of thing can be done quite realistically if you look at AI formation flying in IL2 Forgotten Battles.

[frederf 0]

For bounding watch you can set two or more firesquad colors and have them alternately advance and stop. Not really helping the discussion but I've tried it and it works well with a lot less keystrokes than you think.

[funnyguy1 0]

It`s kinda suggesting things but, well...It`s a thing that can be done quite easilly imho...

To prevent units from keeping a perfect formation and situations where unit that want`s to keep formation moves a couple of inches forward when you do that (It`s annoying when your team-mates use this kind of <step stop, step step stop> movement) the AI should have some delay time to react on players movement. When you move 1m forward the AI team-mate will still maintain his possition (kneeling and covering you)...While commanding a squad, every soldier in formation should delay his movement, and it shouldn`t be a constant value...

example:

Imagine a wedge formation where 1 is a leader and two next soldiers are behind 1 on both his sides, and so on...

1moves; 2(delay after 1, covering right); 3(delay after 1, covering left); 4(delay after 2, covering right); 5(delay after 4, covering left)

With some randomness and some covering skills of AI that would be nice in every formation, but wouldn`t work in cqb.

A "on me" command would force units to get back to the formation (again with some randomness of distances between units).

[Spyder001 1]

Okay, im from USM squad (www.usmsquad.com). We train on US Army, Marine, and Navy SEAL tactics. No joke, We have 2 former army solidiers and one currently serving in Iraq. One of which is related to a Ranger and Navy SEAL (Yes they have documentation). Alot of what we train on are formations. So when you say "formations are worthless" you are 100% wrong. Formations keep soldiers alive, from ranger file, to wedge formation, to the stack, and tactical formation. And those are your squad formations. As you add other squad the formations require flank security and other squads are on stand-by to the rear to flank.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

I still miss the command, "cover 360" ):

[Spyder001 1]

Formation Hopes:

Ranger File (Column)

Stack

Wedge

Line

Tactical Formation (Staggered Column)

Vee Formation

Echelon (Left and Right)

Those are squad/ fireteam formations. On top of that you can have wedges in wedges for platoons. You can also have 2 squads (all in small wedges with 4 men) create echelon right a lefts to create a Vee formation with a platoon. The creates a pinsor attack helping to catch the enemy in a cross fire. THis also leaves the enemy an escape route.

I really hope they worked close with marines and army personel on formations and tactics.

[Second 0]

I really hope they worked close with marines and army personel on formations and tactics.

Nay. More general it has to be. If you are speaking of US used tactics and formations. Not all countries see reason to do things US way (Like Northern Sahrani). This can be for squad/platoon sizes. Things are done other way, to gain same results.

Me as Finnish reservist-NCO see that US way seems to do things complicated way. Meaning why not move in platoon line/column and as enemy is met, two squads (we use Three squad + platoonleader's team), starts to flank from both sides, this let's enemy still to retreat. BIS has probably few reservist officers/NCOs and gruts in their offices/nearbars or cafees (being in conscript state/satellite does that ), who have gained good "People's (red?)-Army" training.

I just hope that not every thing is done US way, as they are other ways to do things. So more generic system please (although after reading US tactical manuals i've noticed that basicaly things are done same way as ours, but detail there and here differs: like that platoon organization thing, which affects to many details, but as said results are/should be the same)

[Spyder001 1]

Right, then comes friendly fire. Now, one this game is US Based. There are US Weapons and personel, so they should use US Tactics regardless. Yes, US tactics are more complicated, but thats why we are so good. If you move in a column, you have no way to quickly put fire to the front. So you would quickly be suppressed and there would be no way to get you other squads on the flanks. Now, my number 2 guy in USM, was Army. He taught me everything I know. I was teaching other people squad tactics at the age of 14, and I now can teach up to platoon tactics at the age of 17. So if you pay attention when they are being taught, you will pick them up fast.

[GBee 0]

Right, then comes friendly fire.

US tactics avoid friendly fire??? Reality would seem to suggest otherwise.

[Second 0]

Right, then comes friendly fire. Now, one this game is US Based. There are US Weapons and personel, so they should use US Tactics regardless. Yes, US tactics are more complicated, but thats why we are so good. If you move in a column, you have no way to quickly put fire to the front. So you would quickly be suppressed and there would be no way to get you other squads on the flanks. Now, my number 2 guy in USM, was Army. He taught me everything I know. I was teaching other people squad tactics at the age of 14, and I now can teach up to platoon tactics at the age of 17. So if you pay attention when they are being taught, you will pick them up fast.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING!!! First remeber community, remeber northern sahrani... : THIS ISN'T PLAINLY ABOUT U.S. russians do addons mods, europeans do them, and they may have diffrent oppinion about should things do US way.

HEH! being good? i might have diffrent oppinion about this too. Truly good are those who can fight against superior enemy, enemy which has more weapons, men, equipment. They fight with their hearts for something (like own home, country, and religion/goverment) but citizen of country that haven't had need for that, can't understand it. And i didn't say that colum/line are only that we use. They were mere examples. Yes we always don't put maximum fire to front, part of us might be circling around silently as rest are tiying enemy down, and soon enemy notices that it's been caught in crossfire. But this depate is waste of space as situations and terrain are the prime functions which affect to used formations and tactics. Every military thinks (their heads red) best ways to apply tactics and use of formations for their usage. AND I DID SAY: as Finnish reservist-NCO (who has used to use Finnish tactic, which has been formed up to Finnish terrain, Finnish culture, Finnish experiences in war (We fought against USSR (we had 4 million people and USSR had 200-300 million people), and we were only European country with UK which wasn't conquered by hostile forces, now that's about being GOOD) NOT AS: global military observator, who thinks that everything has to be made his way.

OOOH! you been taught by someone else who was in military... Are you asking from him what you should be wrinting here too.... and you haven't been through military (this is mild suggestion of geting the TRUE training before trying to be pro, as you are simply amateur)... I've studied up to company tactics closely and little of battalion leading (and still i'm admiting that i'm not even close of actually leading them as i lack the OFFICIAL TRAINING)... Hell... i've been part of them in reallife-exercises, which is very far from computers, but also far from real war (let's not forget realities, altough they have been formed by experiences of war). You sound like me before militarytraining: "I know it all... I don't need anymore teaching, heck put me to front of officerclass and i give them couple tips about tactics"... WRONG, they laugh to death!!!

FRIENLY FIRE. well i admit... you know how to cause them to your allies and to youself.

[znashin 0]

Quote[/b] ]but thats why we are so good

rofls