AT weapons...

[Major Fubar 0]

{I think HindHunter may have already posted a topic similar to this, if so, forgive me}

Anyone else find it strange that the preferred US heavy AT weapon is the Carl Gustav?

I would have thought the M47 Dragon would have been a more abvious choice.

The other thing I fnd odd is that the Carl Gustav can take out a T72 with one hit, but a TOW can't. In the real world (sorry to bring out this old chestnut) the TOW carries a much more powerful and penetrating warhead than the Carl Gustav 84mm.

{Geez, now that I look at it, all I seem to do is bitch! *LOL* It's not that I don't like the game: just the opposite! I like it so much, I would like to make any suggestion I can to improve it even more! Come to think of it, life is hard enough for a tank crew in OpFlash as is!}  

But does anyone have an opinion about this?

[Wobble 1]

was the Dragon around in 1985.. in numbers that would warrant its use in the scenario OFP presents?

[nyles 11]

Wasn't the CG a Ranger only AT weapon anyways?

AFAIK standard army troopers used different weapons and the CG was used for Ranger units/Spec Ops due to its varrying and thus flexible ammunition.

correct me if im wrong..

[Sandman 0]

The first Dragon was fielded in the 70´s. Later devolped - Dragon2 (Superdragon) in the 90´s.

The Carl Gustav (M3 MAAWS) was fielded by the Rangers as late as the 90´s I believe. Is it fielded to "regular" army troops in the U.S today?

The armour penetration of the Dragon (the original) is about the same as the Carl Gustav (400 mm roughly). Dragon2 is a little better (500+ mm)...

Dragon2 will be replaced by the Javelin, which will be the main weapon for dismounted infantry in the future. Its superior to any other man-portable AT-weapon in every sence.

The Javelin is avaliable as an addon in OFP and its great (for those of U that didnt know).

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dragon2 will be replaced by the Javelin, which will be the main weapon for dismounted infantry in the future. Its superior to any other man-portable AT-weapon in every sence.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you SURE about that? Have you taken into consideration the French Giat Apilas and the Russian RPG29? I KNOW there is faked videos of the Javelin on the internet, these maybe confusing your judgement. I dont know too much about the Javelin but from what I've head it's armour penetration statistics are not as good as either the Apilas or the RPG29.

EDIT: Just did a little research into the Javelin and it would seem it has armour penetration of roughly 600MM, weighs nearly 30KG's and requires a 2 man crew. Compared to the RPG29 with an armour penetration of 850MM's BEHIND RA and a weight closer to 10KG's I dont see how your statement can be true

[varjo 0]

AFAIK APilas has about 700 mm penetration and it is consired one the best....errr... i guess the word is bazookas.

CG is also Bazooka but AT-4 is AT missile. Real AT-missiles weight about 50 kilos and one can not fire them from elbow or something.

Isn't Javelin and TOW a AT-missile. At least in Finland AT-troops use At-4/5 and TOW for heavy defense and Apilas and laws for light defense.

Also missiles are of course controlled by 2 or more men.

[Guest]

I think the Apilas is classed as a one shot disposable LAW. AT-4 weighs about 33KG's w/ tripod and IS used by the Finnish army but is considered obsolete and is rapidly being replaced if I remember correctly. The Apilas is still a more capable Anti-Tank weapon than the AT-4..I guess the Fins just have an abundance of them and they will most likely be phaised out in the near future. Same with the AT-5 I believe.

Maybe Scooby can comment, he was in the FDF and has a broad knowledge of their AT weapons.

Think this thread should be moved to Off Topic.

[wind 0]

I don't know why this thread's moved here. Since Major Fubar is comparing weapons in OFP, it'd be in General forum.

A single TOW may be not capble of destroying a T72 with a frontal hit. But the point is, TOW is a vehicle-mounted heavy AT weapon which is way more powerful than any portable AT weapons like CG. I too found that Hellfire/AT6 is too weak in OFP. Often it takes me 2 Hellfire to kill a T80. In fact, 1 hit of these monstrous AT missile should kiss any MBT goodbye. During the Gulf War, a "friendly" Hellfire hit a M1A1 and immediately disabled it. Considering T80 has inferior armor than M1A1.....

I hope a new patch will fix it.

[Sandman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dragon2 will be replaced by the Javelin, which will be the main weapon for dismounted infantry in the future. Its superior to any other man-portable AT-weapon in every sense.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you SURE about that? Have you taken into consideration the French Giat Apilas and the Russian RPG29? I KNOW there is faked videos of the Javelin on the internet, these maybe confusing your judgement. I dont know too much about the Javelin but from what I've head it's armour penetration statistics are not as good as either the Apilas or the RPG29.

EDIT: Just did a little research into the Javelin  and it would seem it has armour penetration of roughly 600MM, weighs nearly 30KG's and requires a 2 man crew. Compared to the RPG29 with an armour penetration of 850MM's BEHIND RA and a weight closer to 10KG's I dont see how your statement can be true  <span id='postcolor'>

Ok, here we go...

We have to clear this little thingy out first..

The Javelin weighs in at 49,5 pounds, roughly 28 kg. Its made for dismounted infantry mainly (same as the M47 Dragon). That means that the soldiers dont have to haul this baby though the woods any longer distances (as u probably know its not as common that infantry AT troops fight from their vehicles unless they it is an AT-platform). In this sense it doesnt compare to the Russian RPG29 (which weighs 11,5 kg) and looking at my first post I was refering to the Dragon-system. RPG29 should be compared to Carl Gustav m/48 (M2MAAWS) or even the RPG7 as a man-portable, recoiless and reloadable antitank weapon.

The RPG29 is a "direct-fire" fire weapon (u must have a direct line of sight to your target) and at its best (with laser range finder, optical sight (no magnification!!!) and ballistic computer (there is one, but not fielded))), u can make a 80% shot at a stationary target out to 800 meters. However, in reality, with warconditions, effective range is 500 meters. At that range armourpenetration is about 750 mm (at ranges above that it degrades...)

U seem to concentrate very much on the armour penetration, and sure, it is one of the most important specs of an AT-weapon...but did U consider where the weapon hits?

The Javelin (sure, this is an unfair comparison, but wth... ) is a man-portable, fire-and-forget antitank missile in its primary role. It can be used as an air-air missile (but just choppers - planes are to speedy) and as a BDM (against bunkers and fortified positions), but this is just secondaries...

Javelin is a "top-attack" weapon, which means that it gains altitude when fired and then strikes its target from above (that is the tower) which is the weakest point on a MBT (thats why modern MBT´s are built with reactive armour ontop of the turret and are issued "countermeasures" like the T90 for instance). Being able to do this (most new AT-weapons, like the Swedish Strix-mortar-AT-round are built around this principle) it doesnt have to penetrate as much armour as a "direct-fire" weapon has to (there isnt a MBT in the world that has 500+ mm ontop of the turret).

Effective range is...hold on to your pants...2500 meters!!!

Targeting is made with and IR-sight and the missile is of "fire-and-forget"-type (I wont go deeper into that for now...). Ontop of that the launch procedure is "softlaunch", which means that U can fire from a house or a vehicle. U cannot do that with a RPG29 - I wouldnt advise it anyhow...(Ive fired a traininground with the Carl Gustav from inside of a vehicle - cant recommend it... )

These features are very good. The "softlaunch" enables the troop to stay hidden and, most important, fire from a hidden position. The "fire-and-forget" enables the troop to begin movement as soon as the weapon is fired - this is very important in modern warfare. The "softlaunch" has another little good thing about it - it doesnt sturr up dust behind the shooter (as a common recoiless weapon does), thus it isnt obvious where the shot came from.

The sights that the Javelin is equipped with can be taken off and used away from the weapon. Thats very good if U want to send away a scoutteam searching for targets.

OK...as U can see...Javelin vs. RPG29 shouldnt even be compared...they are two completly different weapons, both in role and capabilities. Javelins vs. Dragons ,however, is comparable in role.

And please, dont go into flamemode now, im not trying to be a dick here...U being a moderator and all...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I like the game as it is

[Guest]

That's a very nice in-depth look at both the RPG29 and the Javelin Anti-Tank system, but then you said:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK...as U can see...Javelin vs. RPG29 shouldnt even be compared...they are two completly different weapons, both in role and capabilities. <span id='postcolor'>

But earlier you DID compare the two, but simply saying:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its superior to any other man- portable AT-weapon in every sence.<span id='postcolor'>

If they cant be compared then the RPG29 must be excluded from that statement, correct? I would still rather carry the RPG29 as it has better armour penetration and is far lighter. A skilled RPG/LAW user will have no problems hitting a tank at 500m's. 28KG's really isn't very portable, even if broken into two parts 14KG's is still a hefty load ontop of all your other equipment. Specially considering the RPG29 can be broken into two bits.

The range and guidance system of the Javelin is of course a huge advantage, but then I would rather use something such as the TOW2b, which I believe falls into the same category, though maybe a little heavier.

By softlaunch I believe you mean it doesn't have a back blast? That is obviously one of the big downfalls of the RPG/Apilas type system but for me the benefits still out-weigh the down side.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">U seem to concentrate very much on the armour penetration, and sure, it is one of the most important specs of an AT-weapon...but did U consider where the weapon hits?<span id='postcolor'>

Of course, the position of where the round hits is imperative, but from tests I have seen the RPG29 has punched through the FRONT armour of a T90 with Reactive armour in 5/6 attempts. Not only that but as LAW man you have control over where you hit, a sensible LAW user will try to try to flank the tank to get a better guarantee of penetration.

I think is a sort of silly arguement, they are clearly apples and oranges, but I still feel your comment of "Its superior to any other man- portable AT-weapon in every sence" is a little hastey

btw, I have no interest in flaming

Ex-ronin: BIS have strived to make things realistic in OFP, why not just get ATLEAST the names of the Anti-tank weapons correct, and possibly get their statistics more correct. IMO it could be done in about 1 hours work. Not much considering it probally takes BIS a good month or so to make a new vehicle.

[Sandman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Armourdave @ Jan. 23 2002,17:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think is a sort of silly arguement, they are clearly apples and oranges, but I still feel your comment of "Its superior to any other man- portable AT-weapon in every sence" is a little hastey <span id='postcolor'>

OK, let me refrase myself then...

- "The Javelin Anti-Tank Missile a great AT-weapon!"