War Movies

[Oligo 1]

I have seen a lot of war movies made in different countries and I must ask: What's with the cheesy patriotic ethos that's filling all Hollywood war movies nowadays?

I mean I have seen finnish war movies and those really don't have any flag waving at all. The enemy (russians) are pictured as humans also and the characters mainly fight just to remain alive and to keep their buddies alive. So it is in war, I'd imagine, the flag waving is done mostly by civvies back home. At least so my grandfathers (both veterans) told me.

German war movies are just the same. Russian (post soviet) war movies and Vietnam-era Hollywood movies also seem to concentrate on the buddy-aspect of warfare, but also tell about the inhumanizing effect war has on people and about the lameness and ridiculousness of the reasons behind wars.

Soviet war movies are... well... let's just say filled with praise towards dying for the cause. Blah. Typical propaganda. Anyway, after seeing Saving Private Ryan, I can only say: WTF? I mean is the lesson of the movie: If you don't shoot all evil germans in sight, the one you let go (the machinegunner) will turn out to be some SS killer and slaughters all your buddies? The germans are also pictured as some Star Wars stormtroopers, faceless, evil. I also just despise all the flag waving in the movie. I mean really, the only ocassion you need to show a flag in war movies is when they cover up coffins with it.

I bet even typical front line U.S. soldiers in WWII just wanted to make it and their buddies to make it. I bet the flag waving was done by the REMFs, so why show this crap in a movie? Why change the concept that worked so well in the Vietnam-era movies?

[Longinius 1]

Because the audience loves it. Hollywood style pictures are mainly directed to the American audience. Americans are by nature (most of them) very patriotic and proud of their nation, its flag and the people. Especially those people that fight to preserve these things they love so much. That is why you see it in Hollywood movies.

The reason a Finnish war movie does not have these components is not that people in Finland are less proud of their heritage, nor are they less patriotic. It is simply not a part of their cultural heritage. They are not a nation of mixed cultures and people, they don't need flags or speeches to motivate or unite. They are allready united as a people.

[Oligo 1]

Oh crap. You're probably right. It must be because of their precious patriotism and nationalism. It's kind of scary, since patriotism and nationalism were the key ingredients to make WWII happen. It is very sad that the underlying message of the modern hollywood war movie is exactly the same as that presented by the soviet war movie.  

And now with the terror issue... Sheesh, the wounded giant is flailing out.

I guess I have to stick to non-U.S. movies for my war entertainment. Too bad, since the Hollywood can stick so much dough to those productions it makes them visually spectacular.

[Hilandor 1]

indeed i also heard a film reviewer mention that after the sept 11 attacks, America have started to pump out war films so as to gain the "feel good" factor again with its citizens.

It shows the power of television and film.

[Oligo 1]

Argh. I can see the flood of films filled with True American Heroes flooding the box office. And I used to like going to the movies. Now how can I get to a different planet?

[Pete 1]

lol

can you guys even imagine a russian, finnish, german or english (well..skip the english, they MIGHT do it) rambo...

a huge muscular german SS soldier running around at the frontline shooting arrows at the ruskies...

a russian built as a bear running around and strangling his nazi-foes to death....

a finnish angry looking guy runs around in enemy trenches poking his oversized knife into the commies...

and all that with patriotic music and a occasional slow motion clip of a flag waving in dramatic scenery..

hollywood should not be allowed to make warmovies, they simply cant resist making them overly patriotic....pearl harbour??.japanese were made to be "incompetent" in it, the japanese were shown as evil butchering fleeing civilians in pearl harbour...and when americans bombed tokyo you hear "only military targets, avoid damaging civilians" bs...

in real life, some 60 or so civilians died in pearl harbour...but in tokyo, hundreds of thousands in one raid alone...........

its sickening to watch american movies sometimes.

(only hollywood-flaming)

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ Jan. 21 2002,15:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">can you guys even imagine a russian, finnish, german or english (well..skip the english, they MIGHT do it) rambo...

a huge muscular german SS soldier running around at the frontline shooting arrows at the ruskies...

a russian built as a bear running around and strangling his nazi-foes to death....

a finnish angry looking guy runs around in enemy trenches poking his oversized knife into the commies...

and all that with patriotic music and a occasional slow motion clip of a flag waving in dramatic scenery..<span id='postcolor'>

A movie like that would be the B-movie of the century.

[Oligo 1]

I actually saw a soviet rambo-movie once. It was about a squad of speznaz wasting some CIA-supported guerrillas. It had a lot of soviet hymns in it for propaganda purposes, so it was quite a pain to watch. Funnily though, it didn't have a typical hollywood ending, because the leader of the squad got shot by one of the guerrillas. The final scene depicts the rest of the squad taking the news to the father of the squad leader. Coolly, the squad members don't even say anything, but the father begins crying, because he knows that they cannot be bringing any good news...

I guess the ending sort of vindicated that film.

[KingBeast 0]

Doesnt Dolf Lundgren (think thats his name) play a lot of those roles pete? Im sure ive seen him as a big muscular german or as a big muscular russian.

The films werent of the highest quality so i cant say as to whether they were hollywood or not though.

[Fenix83 0]

Lungren played only on pro-american (anti-commie) films.

[Silencer 0]

I have some russian war movies where the russian advanced in the battle of stalingrad.

[Pete 1]

yup, like Red Scorpion (not too bad movie).

actually....rambo is not a war movie, its a action movie, but i took it up since it has a lot in common with hollywood war-movies...enemy is BAD, very bad..and own guys are either really nice guys that happen to be in a war, or super tough soldiers of justice who love to be in the war and kill the bad guys...and the enemy is either corrupt, fanatical, stupid or plain incompetent.

take a german movie for example, Stalingrad....anyone remember the scene when both sides agreed on a small ceasefire to get the wounded and collect nametags?

very nice, you could clearly see that on both sides they were humans who were fighting, scared ones...but neither of them would hesitate a second to kill the enemy.

[Thehamster 0]

A film I saw a while ago called All Quite On The Western Front (I think) Showed world war I trench fighting from the German side of view how glorious it would be to go off and fight in the war but the true horrors his them once their there. Not an ounce of German patriotism in it. It was not a war film like saving private Ryan in fact there was very little fighting in it at all. But any how I thought it was a very well done film as film go.

[WhoCares 0]

For the german side I can offer 'Cross of Iron' (Steiner - Das eiserne Kreuz). Off course it is not as pathetic or patriotic as latest Hollywood movies for obvious reasons. What happens to more critical movies shows the example of 'Thin red line' - nominated for as much Oscars as SPR, but received not a single Award. (btw: interesting to see, that it's a similar story in 'Cross of Iron' and 'Thin red line')

And I can 100% agrre with lots of the user comments in the link above.

wkr

WhoCares

[KingBeast 0]

I ordered stalingrad about 5 weeks ago, jsut got confirmatio nthat its been shipepd today. Unfortunately its dubbed, so im hopnig the dubbed vocies have accents rather than being American/English.

[ChickenHawk 0]

Hollywood is the heart and soul of shy& in America. They like to re-write history the American way. Thats the basics and thats all anyone needs to know. I find it hard to believe anyone could be ignorant enough to take note of their movies and eventually believe that they are based on truth.

But it works....

I hear that Hollywood will soon be making a movie on how they won the falklands war. I hear that the brits also die in it.

[silent wings 0]

The americans seem to have a complex, they rewrite history so they r the hero's whilst all the time their society is destroying itself,im apologise to al the americans on here but u r one fucked up ppl.

[Akira 0]

How is our society destroying itself?

Anyone who watches Hollywood movies in order to learn the truth is an idiot as it is. Anyone who watches Hollywood movies (or ANY movie) and believes them as the truth of a situation is a damn fool.

Granted that there are people out there that will watch "U571" and say "Yeah! America kicks ass! We did it all!" and yes they are a damn fool. On the same token at the end (before the credits)there was a note thanking the sailors and soldiers that REALLY captured the Enigma devices..it listed the ships and the dates....any halfway intelligent person would note that there wasn't a single American ship listed. "U571" was an action movie nothing more nothing less. If you take it for history you are a fool.

Anyone who expects even handed, fair minded handling of an antagonists story in a movie is an idiot. You have to look at it from the narrative aspects of the film. "Black Hawk Down" has been critizied for not showing the "Somalian motivation" for what they did, or how they acted or putting the Somalian affair in "perspective". Even going so far as to say the movie was borderline racist. From the narrative aspect of the movie why would "Somalian motivation" be neccessary. Its about the soldiers that fought....the AMERICAN soldiers. It's concetrated on them, and all they knew were a couple thousand people were after them. You think they cared about "motivations" and "perspectives" at the time? So as far as the movie narrative is concerned its unwarrented. You want both sides and perspective....watch a documentary or read the book.

"Saving Private Ryan" as well. You think they cared if the Germans are human? In any war you have to dehumanize the enemy to do what you have to do. Plus (I don't know if this had anything to do with it), Speilberg is Jewish and might have a personnel connection to holocaust and its effects...thus his some standardized portyal of Germans in World War 2.

But all that might just be reading into it. It could be as simple as the fact it was made for an American audience. Yes we export every damn movie, but the film is MADE for Americans. Hollywood is IN America. Why wouldn't it have an American tilt? You want movies that don't have American tilts? France makes great films. Britian makes some nice films. India has some great films. No one said you had to see them (Hollywood hitmen will be after me for that one). All the highest grossing, blockbusters in South Korea were made in South Korea and stared South Korean stars.

I can't believe you are actually talking about the Rambo movies. What an entire waste of celluloid. What great loads of crap (except "First Blood" which was half-way alright for other reasons than the action). "Red Scorpion"? My god.

Least someone mentioned "The Thin Red Line". A great movie. Close to a masterpiece.

Unless a movie is advertised as being "the truth" or have all the facts, there is no excuse for accepting a movie at face value (why do you think there is so much use of the legalese "BASED on a true story"). No movie (short of documentaries) is going to be entirely fact based. Not unless they want to make money. There are narrative and financial considerations that out-weigh that.

Think thats everything...can't remember....

Outty for now...

[Silencer 0]

World war II movies sometims re fun to watch but there history story is lame.Americans now start bragging how powerful and they beaten the germains in berlin...

thats only half the story....maney other countrys wenbt to war with germain especially russia.they lost millions of people and american sits back and say "american won we saved everyone".I believe russia deserves credit too!!!

[Akira 0]

I just reiterate what I already said.

Movies aren't meant to be educational nor are they meant to be history lessons. The whole premise of a movie is the "suspension of disbelief" theory, where an audience forgets what they know is real and true in order to try to be entertained for 2 hours.

If you are going to movies for history lessons, then there is something drastically wrong. Read a book.

Surprisingly, "Pearl Harbor" made quite a bunch of references to the other nations fighting, especially the British. There are a number of movies (especially made between 1942-1943) where Americans are anything but "kicking ass". They were made not only for propaganda but for national catharsis. The movies depict Americans getting kicked around but raising above that, to be the "heros" of the nation...maybe dying, but dying for what is "right".

No one doubts Russia's contribution to the war (we won't get into Lend-Lease), or the great price it paid, or Britain, or France, or any other nation. But Americans helped as well, and as American movie makers, with American stars, geared toward an American audience it is no wonder they are American oriented. You want to see a WW2 movie NOT about Americans then don't watch an American WW2 movie (with some exceptions). I hear there is a movie in France being made or already made about the resitence as well as one about French film makers during the occupation. I intend to see both.

Don't go to the movies expecting to learn something, or expecting a history lesson. It ain't gonna happen.

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Fenix83 @ Jan. 21 2002,16:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lungren played only on pro-american (anti-commie) films.<span id='postcolor'>

You can't have seen Rocky 4 then

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 23 2002,16:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Granted that there are people out there that will watch "U571" and say "Yeah! America kicks ass! We did it all!" and yes they are a damn fool. On the same token at the end (before the credits)there was a note thanking the sailors and soldiers that REALLY captured the Enigma devices..it listed the ships and the dates....any halfway intelligent person would note that there wasn't a single American ship listed. "U571" was an action movie nothing more nothing less. If you take it for history you are a fool.<span id='postcolor'>

I might be pedantic...but as far as I know this was put in due to British pressure. Originally this was not going to be in at all.

[Miguel99 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Jan. 23 2002,20:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lungren played only on pro-american (anti-commie) films.<span id='postcolor'>

You can't have seen Rocky 4 then <span id='postcolor'>

If Rocky 4 wasn't pro-american (anti-commie), I don't know what is. Did you really see it as pro-commie???

[Pete 1]

i know Akira, a movie is not a history lesson (not if it is from hollywood )

but i dont know if you know exactly what we (atleast i) were talking about, its not that the movie is not historically accurate, it is that it makes a good vs bad statement, not only on the "political level" (nazi gov. = bad) but also among the soldiers...german soldiers are always bad, russian are always incompetent and anyone else is just plain stupid.

all while americans are the heroic nice guys.

i understand what you say perfectly, a movie is a movie, nothing more..hollywood movies are made for americans first, and then shipped to other nations.

but the thing is, watch a european war movie (you really shoul)..take Stalingrad for example, you will not see one trace of patriotism, flagwaving or demonising of the enemy, no stupid, incompetent or evil russians.

in american movies the enemy is always that, always...it is the american way of making movies i quess...the old good vs bad, i have seen a movie made in bosnia i believe right after the war, it had a great story and didnt paint either of the sides as worse than the other (it was not a war movie, but based on the war time).

as some example of what i mean.

gettysburg, both sides repressented as good, neither of the sides repressented as bad, it still was a great movie.

as soon you see americans fight others than them selfs, then it is good vs bad, it is not needed to make a good movie, but hollywood for some reason repeatedly does so.

i heard rumours of the military giving support (borrowing equipment) to war movies.....IF they are showing the military as a good thing, perhaps this is what creates the hollywood desire to make good vs bad themes instead of "realistic" movies...not the audience desires.

if you are a fan of war movies, you should see "Stalingrad, All quiet on western front (old german version), Talvisota/winterwar, Waterloo (a oldie, but good)" and some others, specially american civilawar movies....those i rank as the top war movies.

they are not either 100% historically correct but you get rid of the flagwaving and super-patriotism.

btw, rambo one IS good...the following ones are plain silly.

(and i took it up as a extreme version of svp and other hollywood warmovies, even if rambo is a action movie)

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miguel99 @ Jan. 23 2002,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Rocky 4 wasn't pro-american (anti-commie), I don't know what is.  Did you really see it as pro-commie???<span id='postcolor'>

Well I saw it as pro-both, depended on your perspective I guess, my point was more in relation to character portrayed, not the movies themself.