The Middle East part 2

[shinRaiden 0]

Security? what for?

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Israeli security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Gaza was the only burial option, and that they oppose allowing Arafat to be interred in the West Bank, including the Jerusalem suburb of Abu Dis.

Arafat had spent the last three years in his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah, which effectively became his prison after Israel besieged his compound more than two years ago.

Lapid did not refer to a possible ban on a West Bank burial, but told Channel Two: "Now we are talking about Gaza. We have no problems with Gaza, of course."

Palestinian Foreign Minister Nabil Shaath said there have been no contacts with Israel on funeral arrangements. "We've heard about their (Israel's) plans only from the media," he told The Associated Press from Gaza.

Mohammed Bassiouni, Egypt's former ambassador to Israel, said he expected a memorial service to take place outside the Palestinian territories and the burial to be in Gaza. Bassiouni, who heads the national security committee in Egypt's 264-seat Shura Council, said his country could help arrange a Gaza burial.

Arafat's clan, the Al-Kidwas, are originally from Gaza, though the Palestinian leader grew up in Jerusalem and Cairo. The family has a small plot of 25 to 30 graves in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis. The overgrown patch is in the middle of a busy vegetable market and would not be considered appropriate.

Other burial options include a seaside plot next to his old headquarters in Gaza City, or Gaza City's "martyrs' cemetery" east of the city, close to Israel.

A funeral in Gaza would pose a security nightmare for foreign dignitaries. There has been increasing chaos in the coastal strip in recent months, with rival groups of gunmen and security chiefs battling for control ahead of a planned Israeli troop withdrawal next year.

Israeli officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said they were instructed to prepare for the arrival of foreign envoys for the funeral, but the Palestinians weren't ready yet to cooperate in the planning.

[feersum.endjinn 6]

Well, it's official now.

Yasser Arafat, symbol of Palestinian nationhood for four decades, dies in a French hospital aged 75.

[Bernadotte 0]

The funeral ceremony will be held Friday in Cairo Egypt where international dignitaries can attend.

His remains will then be interred in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

[shinRaiden 0]

I go offline for 20 minutes to do a browser upgrade and I get this. Ah the irony. The conspiracies are still running rampant, but for better or for worse, Abu Amaar has been the spotlight of the Palestinian cause the past several decades. Perhaps his week-long semi-dead state will have helped to ease the immediate impact and prevent any serious flareups surrounding his memorial. Had he died immediately the likelyhood of a riot on Jerusalem would have been much higher imho, interment in Ramallah *may* work.

Regardless of how you view his actions and rhetoric, he will be known for publicizing the Palestinian identity and creating some rudimentary form of cultural unity. The "Teflon Guerilla" is now outside this world, keep your memories as you will, and leave the rest to God.

The transition as noted elsewhere is in constant flux. This represents a significant cultural change, from a token sheik/king figure to a council of chiefs that are at least pretending a democratic organization. God willing, folks keep their heads screwed on straight and take the new elbow room to build their nation.

For many decades his personal ego has kept the Palestinian society and dream alive. Now is the tim, however, for the people to take "Abu Amaar's people" and make it 'their' cause.

Aerial photograph of the Mukata compound in Ramallah.

Demolitions crews are frantically excavating this rubble to clear an area for the masoleum.

This is an interesting thought...

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The fight for Arafat

(Yousuf Abeldlaki, Al-Khaleej, 11/9/04).

[shinRaiden 0]

George Bush

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The death of Yasser Arafat is a significant moment in Palestinian history. We express our condolences to the Palestinian people. For the Palestinian people, we hope that the future will bring peace and the fulfillment of their aspirations for an independent, democratic Palestine that is at peace with its neighbors. During the period of transition that is ahead, we urge all in the region and throughout the world to join in helping make progress toward these goals and toward the ultimate goal of peace.

John Howard

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Prime Minister John Howard says Yasser Arafat will be remembered as a leader who failed to grasp an opportunity for peace in the Middle East.

Officials have described the Palestinian President as being in the final phase of his life.

They say the 75-year-old's liver and kidneys have failed and he remains in a deep coma in a Paris hospital.

Mr Howard says many people regard Yasser Arafat as a terrorist and it is hard to believe that he could not have done more to restrain militant Palestinian groups.

"I think history will judge him very harshly for not having seized the opportunity in the year 2000 to embrace the offer that was very courageously made by the then Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barack, which involved the Israelis agreeing to 90 per cent of what the Palestinians had wanted," he said.

Al-Jazeera commentary

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Unlike last week's US presidential election, there are no clearly defined candidates who will have their fates decided at the ballot box.

Indeed, it is uncertain if the Palestinians - confronted by the reality of Israeli occupation - will get to choose a new leader, or have one foisted upon them through a back-room deal.

Key outside power negotiators, such as Israel and the US, will also try to influence Arafat's succession.

According to London-based Palestinian analyst and al-Quds al-Arabi editor, Abd al-Bari Atwan, it is imperative that the Palestinians hold elections to choose a leader and break the Arafat-led Fatah movement's stranglehold on power.

"Arafat is by far the most popular figure in Palestine," he told Aljazeera.net. "But no other figure in his Fatah movement commands much support among Palestinians. So why should they be allowed to maintain power?"

...

Khalid Amayreh, Aljazeera.net's correspondent in the West Bank, says the situation is further complicated by Arafat's elimination of any potential rivals.

He said it would also be impossible for one figure to unite the Palestinians in the same way as Arafat had done.

"It is highly possible that there will not be one leader," he told Aljazeera.net.

No other figure in Palestine commands Arafat's popularity "The safest option would be for some sort of collective leadership. But the problem is that Fatah will not tolerate power sharing."

Amayreh added that Arafat's death would be bad news for the Israelis as he was the only man who could have made as many concessions as he did and still survive politically.

There's also some additional material there on possible successors Mahmum Abbas, Ahmad Quraya, Marwan al-Barghuthi, Muhammad Dahlan, and Jibril al-Rajub.

[brgnorway 0]

nm

[shinRaiden 0]

Thomas Friedman, Nov. 7th. NY Times (reg. req.)

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Footprints in the Sand

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

It is a sad but fitting coda to Yasir Arafat's career that the prospect of his death seemed to unlock more hope and possibilities than the reality of his life.

His corrupt, self-interested rule had created a situation whereby Palestinian aspirations seemed to have gotten locked away with him, under house arrest in Ramallah, well beyond the reach of creative diplomacy. Only human biology could liberate them again - and so it has.

In the early 1990's, I sided with those Israelis who, though no fans of Arafat, were ready to deal with him at Oslo in the name of normalcy for both Israelis and Palestinians. But once it became clear, after the collapse of the Camp David talks, that no deal was possible with Arafat, I wished for his speedy disappearance. He was a bad man, not simply for the way he introduced a whole new level of terrorism to world politics, but because of the crimes he committed against his own people. There, history will judge him very harshly.

Google is a wonderful tool. I spent time the other day Googling every variation I could of the words: "Yasir Arafat and Palestine and education." I couldn't come up with a single speech, or even full paragraph, in which Arafat laid out his vision for how Palestinians would educate their youth and nurture their talents. Maybe all his speeches on that subject were never translated from Arabic. Or maybe they just don't exist - because this was never his priority. His obsession was with Palestinian "land," not Palestinian "life." Google the words "Yasir Arafat and martyrdom and jihad," and the matches go on for pages.

After every defeat, Arafat stood on the ruins and flashed a victory sign. While his wife lived in Paris and his cronies lined their pockets, two generations of Palestinians remained in their poverty and displacement, because he never had the courage to tell them the truth: "Palestine will have to be divided with the Jews forever. We must make the best final deal we can over the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem - without double talk about getting the rest later - and then build the finest society that we can." Had he ever given that speech - in Arabic - had he ever adopted the nonviolence of Gandhi, Arafat would have had three Palestinian states by now - Israel's reckless settlements notwithstanding.

The fact that he didn't was not a mistake in judgment but an expression of character. For him, it was better to die in Paris, and have two generations of Palestinians die in exile, than be the Arab leader who officially and unambiguously agreed to share Jerusalem with the Jews. I can understand why stateless Palestinians would revere Arafat for the way he put their cause on the world map - but that became an end for him rather than a means, which is why his historical impact will be as lasting as a footprint in the desert.

Arafat's exit from the stage, combined with the downfall of Saddam Hussein, is a real moment of opportunity for the Arab world: Under Saddam and Arafat, Iraqi and Palestinian nationalisms were devoid of any positive agenda for developing all the men and women in those two societies. They were focused on the negative agendas of resisting outsiders and buying more weapons than computers - because that is what served their one-man rulers. This negative nationalism kept their people mobilized, externally focused and never able to ask about education budgets, let alone democracy. As the Arabic saying went, "No voice should be louder than the battle." And no voices were louder in insisting on that than Arafat's and Saddam's.

But if you have societies held together by a voluntary social contract among its constituent populations, and by institutions, you don't need one-man rule. You don't need to mobilize the whole society around resistance to outsiders. And you don't need the suppression of every group in the society, other than the tribe of the one-man ruler - with all the violence and extremism that such suppression brings.

And that's why so much is riding on how Palestinians and Iraqis replace the one-man rulers who so distorted their societies. Will they each use this moment to hold elections and build a bridge to a society of institutions and laws, or will they simply build a bridge to another one-man ruler? If it is the latter, then the U.N. is going to continue putting out reports about the lack of human development in the Arab world. If it is the former, I am certain that within a decade when you Google the words "Iraq, Palestine, educational innovation and scientific breakthroughs," you will actually come up with some matches.

Al-Jazeera obit.

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Arafat was recognised for leading several attacks against Israel from various Arab territories. He believed that armed resistance was the only option left for a population that had lost its homeland and freedom.

However, his insistence on maintaining the independent character of the Palestinian struggle was often a source of conflict between him and various Arab governments.

In Jordan, that rift culminated in a war between Palestinian factions and the Jordanian army.

Black September

Thousands of Palestinian civilians were slaughtered in Jordan's crackdown in what became known as Black September.

Palestinian factions were forced out of Jordan into Lebanon, this time with Arafat elected as the chairman of the PLO's executive committee.

Lebanon, already engulfed in civil strife between its various sects and factions, was hardly ready for another force that altered the fragile ethnic and political balance of the country.

The PLO had been staging operations out of Jordan, and when Israel retaliated King Hussein told them to knock it off. Arafat called for revolution, but the Jordanians and the bedouin army threw Arafat and his men out of Amman. Iirc, there are still a few million palestinians in the Jordanian East Bank.

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While his ratings dwindled significantly in his early years as PA president, Arafat once more became popular among ordinary Palestinians who saw him as a resilient fighter, refusing to yield to international pressure.

This perception renewed the battle-hardened leader's appeal as a symbol, even to those who strongly disagreed with his political policies and approach.

Such an interesting combination, Arafat-Barak-Clinton.

[shinRaiden 0]

Borders have been shut down and checkpoints tightened around the territories Jerusalem Post

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Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Thursday instructed the army to impose a full closure on the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Meanwhile security forces have beefed up their presence at checkpoints throughout the West Bank and around Ramallah, and in preparation for the funeral tomorrow will also monitor the access routes leading to the city.

The troops will be prepared to deal with any violence that may erupt but have strict instructions to refrain from any unnecessary contact with the Palestinians in order to allow them to mourn their leader without interference.

Mofaz approved the plan submitted by the IDF and Shin Bet and in the coming hours the routes to be taken by dignitaries entering Israel via the Allenby Bridge will be decided upon and clarified. In addition dignitaries entering Israel via the Ben Gurion Airport will be transported to Ramallah via Road 443.

The army has also yet to finalize the entry points into Ramallah for journalists, and those attending the funeral. The Prison Service authority has dispatched elite squads to guard the prisons where 4000 Palestinian security detainees are incarcerated. Prison wardens have been instructed to allow the security prisoners to mourn their leader and at the same time ensure that order is maintained.

Certain West Bank cities are expected to be sealed off to prevent the possibility of mass rallies spilling out into the surrounding areas and turning violent, security officials said.

Furthermore, up to 1,000 officials from the Gaza Strip and a limited number from the West Bank will be allowed to attend the funeral, according to Israeli sources.

Palestinian Legislative Council member Kadoura Fares warned that violence will erupt if Israel tries to limit the number of Palestinians at the funeral.

Troops will try to avoid contact with Palestinians to prevent confrontations. Civil Administration officials will also be present at checkpoints and border crossings, security officials said.

The PA will be solely responsible for security inside the city, Israeli officials said.

On Wednesday, Fatah organized demonstrations in Nablus and Ramallah and threatened to break through IDF checkpoints in an attempt to reach the Temple Mount where it insists Arafat will be buried.

Large numbers of police have already been deployed deployed at the Western Wall, and they will be reinforced on Friday in case riots erupt in the Aksa Mosque compound during Ramadan prayers, expected to be attended by some 200,000 worshipers.

The Foreign Ministry will be in charge of approving the attendance of dignitaries from Arab countries. Representatives from enemy countries will enter via the Allenby Bridge, not Ben-Gurion Airport, security officials said. "We cannot allow someone like Gaddafi to land at the airport," one official said.

The officials noted that separate transport will be designated for VIPs, foreign dignitaries, and Palestinians.

Once the mourning period is over, one official said, "all we can hope is that a more pragmatic Palestinian leadership will take charge and perhaps pave the way for a renewal of negotiations and at last start combatting terror and arresting the instigators."

Hamas and Jihad hold Israel liable for Arafat's 'murder'...

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A top leader of Hamas publicly accused Israel of killing Yasser Arafat.

Neither doctors nor Palestinian leaders would say what caused Arafat's death on Thursday after days in a coma at a Paris hospital. Rumors he had been poisoned by Israel had swirled for weeks, but Palestinian Foreign Minister on Wednesday said he "totally ruled out" poisoning.

"I hold Israel responsible for the crime of killing Abu Ammar," Hamas' top political leader, Khaled Mashaal, told Al-Jazeera television by telephone, using the late Palestinian leader's nom de guerre. He offered no evidence.

Mashaal referred to his own poisoning by Israeli agents in 1997 in Jordan. Mashaal survived only after Israel sent the antidote under pressure from the late Jordanian King Hussein.

"French, Arab or Palestinian doctors may not be able to find evidence" Arafat had been poisoned, Mashaal said.

"Yes, death is an act of God and a man the age of brother Abu Ammar may die a natural death, but all the circumstances which we have seen in the past two weeks and medical reports indicate that brother Abu Ammar had been poisoned," Mashaal said.

Security officials in Israel fear that such statements may fuel violence in the mass rallies expected to take place in West Bank cities.

Hamas also said Arafat's death would strengthen its resolve to keep up attacks against Israel.

"The loss of the great leader will increase our determination and steadfastness to continue Jihad and resistance against the Zionist enemy until victory and liberation is achieved,"[/i] Hamas said in statement.

Islamic Jihad spokesman in Gaza Nafez Azzam said "with hearts full of belief in God's will we mourn President Yasser Arafat who was a great leader for the Palestinian people."

"This is a time for unity, steadfastness. We are all one people fighting for our freedom and to liberate our land," said top Islamic Jihad leader Mohammad Al-Hindi. "We are looking to see a smooth transfer of authority within Fatah at this stage and later all issues must be discussed including the formation of a unified national leadership or an emergency leadership formed up by all factions."

That last part is what Abbas and Queri are in a panic about, and their strong-man Bhargouti is still in prison not going anywhere.

[shinRaiden 0]

PLO Central Committee not united on transition Haaretz

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But Farouk Kaddoumi, head of the PLO's political department, challenged the emerging Palestinian leadership of Mahmoud Abbas and Ahmed Qureia by announcing Wednesday that he has no intention of renouncing his share in Arafat's political inheritance.

The division of power was settled during discussions by all the PA, PLO and Fatah institutions during the 13 days since Arafat was flown to hospital in Paris, but Kaddoumi, because he lives overseas, did not take part in these meetings.

"Anyone who thinks that I have abdicated my authority is mistaken, and ought to think again," said Kaddoumi, who did not return to the territories in 1993 with the rest of the PLO leadership because he opposes the Oslo Accords.

His announcement caused consternation in Ramallah, since Kaddoumi, though he has never played an active role in the management of Arafat's Fatah faction, is known to have many supporters both on Fatah's Central Committee and among Fatah activists in the territories.

Charging that discussions by the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah might be under Israeli surveillance, Kaddoumi added: "I hope that meetings ... aimed at planning the future will be held outside the territories and include all Palestinian factions that oppose the occupation, including those that are not members of the PLO."

Asked what he thought Fatah, the main PLO faction, ought to do now, the secretary-general of Fatah's Central Committee said that it should wage guerrilla warfare against the Israel Defense Forces.

Most Fatah Central Committee members live in Ramallah and support a division of power between Abbas and Qureia.

One of the founders of Fatah, Kaddoumi has spent the last 10 years in Syria and Tunis, along with three other Central Committee members who also refused to return to the territories pursuant to the Oslo Accords.

During this time, he has run the PLO's embassies abroad. His relations with Abbas are strained, because last year, during Abbas's brief stint as Palestinian prime minister, Abbas tried to make these embassies subordinate to the PA's Foreign Ministry instead.

Since Arafat became ill, Kaddoumi has headed the camp that accuses Israel of poisoning him.

No word yet from Barghouti

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Palestinian security detainees are waiting to hear what prisoner Marwan Barghouti has to say: What is his position on the emerging leadership? Does he intend to contend in the planned elections?

According to a lawyer who met with prisoners at Nafha prison this week, the security detainees, particularly those belonging to Fatah, speak of Barghouti as the Palestinian people's new leader. They await his pronouncements as they waver between wanting to give the collective leadership now taking shape a chance and mistrusting it. In any case, as one lawyer overheard the security detainees say, any leadership that arises will not be deemed legitimate nor receive their support if it does not work on behalf of their release.

Barghouti associates said he receives constant updates through the media on Arafat's condition. He has refrained till now from making declarations through his confidants, including one who expects Barghouti to find a way to convey a political message today. In any event, the confidant said, Barghouti is known to support elections, deepening political pluralism, and rule of law.

Security detainees and Barghouti associates hope that Israel will scrutinize the public opinion surveys, which they feel prove that the Barghouti alone can compete with Hamas representatives planning to run for election. Barghouti himself has held back from announcing whether he intends to participate in elections either for president or for the Palestinian Legislative Council, although it is thought he will run.

Prisoners and confidants expressed hope yesterday that Barghouti will be released, perhaps through understandings with Egypt, because only his return to the political arena can thwart the strengthening of Hamas. They believe that Barghouti is the only person who can provide Mahmoud Abbas with the legitimacy of grass-roots support.

Meanwhile, three Fatah representatives at Ashkelon prison already have voiced support for the emerging leadership. Relatives who visited the prison yesterday said the prisoner representatives sent a letter yesterday (through the prison service commissioner) to Public Security Minister Gideon Ezra requesting a 48-hour furlough to participate in mourning ceremonies to be held for PA Chairman Yasser Arafat. They reportedly asked for permission to stay at Abbas' home in Ramallah and in the Muqata, "to encourage and strengthen the moderate Palestinian leadership headed by Abu Mazen in the immediate future." The letter also expressed the hope that shortly "a new leaf will be turned in relations between the Palestinian and Israeli leaderships."

A flyer put out by "the prisoner's club" on behalf of detainees at all prisons strikes a less conciliatory note. The flyer places responsibility for Arafat's condition on the government of Israel due to the lengthy siege it imposed on him at the Muqata. But responding to fears of anarchy, the flyer calls for bolstering the legitimacy of PLO institutions in the foreseeable future and not abandoning the Palestinian political arena to power centers and personal interest. The flyer calls for national unity, expressing the people's sovereignty through the ballot box, and expressing confidence in the Palestinians' ability to show responsibility and not fall into internal struggles.

Beyond taking an interest in developments at the top, the prisoners are asking themselves how changes will affect them in the post- Arafat era. Some prisoners claim they have heard from the Israel Prisons Service that prisoner releases are planned after the PA leader's death.

Differing reports have been coming in from various prisons regarding attitudes toward Arafat's condition. Some report prisoners are profoundly sad, others report apathy.

[ozanzac 0]

It's ironic that during the peace deals that Clinton held way back when, Arafat appeared to be much more enthusiastic about the whole deal than Rabin , who was reluctant to even extend the handshake of goodwill.......That's the Arafat I think I'm most likely to remember.

Someone who tried to show he wanted to gain peace, but was continuously thwarted by the efforts of others.

It's amazing the old bugger lasted this long, with the relentless persuit Israel's had on him.

[theavonlady 2]

One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

[brgnorway 0]

One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

Well, you have Sharon........

....and historicaly also a couple of others known to be terrorists....

Point is that Arafat is not a saint - and none aknowledges him as being that. But he was the leader of the palestinians - a leader who did take some steps towards peace.

[ozanzac 0]

One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

If you are, can you do it in your own privacy?

It is not proper to speak ill of the dead, no matter what your feelings & thoughts towards them are.

If you can't put the hurt of the past behind you, how can there ever be a recovery in the future?

[theavonlady 2]

One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

If you are, can you do it in your own privacy?

Were you expecting me to fly over to Australia and puke on your front porch?

Quote[/b] ]It is not proper to speak ill of the dead, no matter what your feelings towards them are.

Sorry Hitler. Sorry Stalin. When I think of some of the things I've said about the dead.

But no more. You've given me moral fortitude.

[theavonlady 2]

If you can't put the hurt of the past behind you, how can there ever be a recovery in the future?

1. I do not believe in Hakuna Matata.

2. It's not only the past. It's the present and will continue in the future.

[Bernadotte 0]

One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

Would you have preferred a Palestinian Gandhi?  Let's face it, had the people of colonial India been led by an Arafat the British would probably still be occupying most of their country.

[ozanzac 0]

One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

If you are, can you do it in your own privacy?

Were you expecting me to fly over to Australia and puke on your front porch?

.

No, just all over the forums.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]It is not proper to speak ill of the dead, no matter what your feelings towards them are.

Sorry Hitler. Sorry Stalin. When I think of some of the things I've said about the dead.

But no more. You've given me moral fortitude

Avon, give it a rest. I think we all established they were evil men a long time ago. Arafat is not an angel, nor is he in their league when it come's to evilness.

Just give it a break. Take it with a pinch of salt that some of us won't remember him as a butcher.

[theavonlady 2]

Just give it a break. Take it with a pinch of salt that some of us won't remember him as a butcher.

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

[GoOB 0]

That goes for your current leader aswell. It takes two to tango.

[theavonlady 2]

That goes for your current leader aswell. It takes two to tango.

I have no love for my present leader.

Quit trying to charm me.

[ozanzac 0]

Just give it a break. Take it with a pinch of salt that some of us won't remember him as a butcher.

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."-Malcolm X

I've learnt that bearing grudges achieves nothing.

[theavonlady 2]

Just give it a break. Take it with a pinch of salt that some of us won't remember him as a butcher.

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."-Malcolm X

I've learnt that bearing grudges achieves nothing.

Who's talking about bearing grudges.

Pavlov's dog may have beared a grudge but most important he learned his lesson.

We (nor you), however, have not.

[ozanzac 0]

Just give it a break. Take it with a pinch of salt that some of us won't remember him as a butcher.

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."-Malcolm X

I've learnt that bearing grudges achieves nothing.

Who's talking about bearing grudges.

Pavlov's dog may have beared a grudge but most important he learned his lesson.

We (nor you), however, have not.

Oh c'mon!?! Your not bearing a grudge!

Quote[/b] ]One can throw up from reading the fiction and the glorifaction of a butcher of humanity on this thread.

And who says that just because I won't remember him as a butcher, means I am bound to make the mistakes of history? I, as are you, are bound to make the very same mistakes that others have made before us, that's human nature because we are not perfect!

This is all totally irrelevent.

I hope that peace and tranquility one day reach your region, Avon. I'll leave it at that.

[Placebo 29]

Rather than dancing round the mulberry bush how bout we all discuss and debate?

[ozanzac 0]

Rather than dancing round the mulberry bush how bout we all discuss and debate?

OK then.

Attitudes need to change. The people of Israel, at the very least, need to display to their government that treating the Palestinians like a bunch of animals is not on. Whether or not the current generation of Israelites are able to do that, I don't know, but I'm guessing no, due to the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth attitudes still apparent.

Whilst the Palestinians are equally guilty of this, it does take two to tango, but only one to stop, and Israel has the power to restrain itself, wheras the Palestinian Authority is near powerless, no thanks to [edit]misguided[/edit] retribution attacks from Israel.

Instead, they seem quite pleased, or at least of no opinion, that their government has set up a 'Berlin Wall' upon stolen land, to isolate themselves from their neighbours.

Disputes with your neighbours don't get resolved by ignoring them....if anything, the frustration of the Palestinian people will only grow under current conditions.

"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."

Moshe Dayan

Israeli general & politician (1915 - 1981)

By continually interfering with the everyday lives of Palestinians, be it fencing them off, forcing them through checkpoints, or the continual expansion of Israel’s borders, is it of any wonder that a small fraction of Palestinians are quite happy to blow themselves up at a bus stop in downtown Jerusalem? The fact they are willing to go so far as to blow themselves up, indicates the severity of the frustration they’re enduring.

Sure, building a great big wall is one way to deal with it; after all, it worked for the Chinese circa 200 BC. But that’s where such an archaic idea belongs. It won’t work, nor last forever in the modern world.

But alas, that’s why the attitudes need to change. The Israelis need to submit to at least some of the Palestinian demands, but be tolerant enough to make sure all the peace plans are met. Mutual peace should be the number one priority. Revenge should be last. After the plans are met, the Israeli’s can build all the walls they like, provided it’s on the agreed border… Otherwise, nothing will ever change.