The Middle East part 2

[Balschoiw 0]

Read...

Quote[/b] ]But Haaretz cited senior officers as saying troops were being exposed to an unnecessarily high risk by remaining in the densely populated camp and that rocket launchers had also been moved from Jabalya

Moved = taken to another spots

Destroyed = smashed, taken out of action

Can you see the difference billybob ?

Quote[/b] ]I thought Kerry said no....

So ? Is he the president right now ?

Besides that there are plans that are not done by the president, the holy missile defense system the USA is installing right now won´t work without a permanent presence of US troops in Iraq if you take into account that US troops will sooner or later not be welcome in Saudi Arabia, Jordania and Kuwait. Pentagon planers are aware of that, so it´s a doctrine and not a presidential plan. Taking into consideration the evil evil Iranians also points out the US need for a permanent presence in Iraq. And of course the interest in securing the black gold.

Can you follow me ?

Quote[/b] ]By the time I enlist and finish training

Let´s wait if they have any use for you first, shall we ?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Moved = taken to another spots

Destroyed = smashed, taken out of action

Read....

Quote[/b] ] Senior officers were reported to have told Sharon that Operation Days of Penitence, launched 14 days ago in a bid to halt rocket attacks on southern Israel, had now met its main objective.

Quote[/b] ]Let´s wait if they have any use for you first, shall we ?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Read....

Hello ?!?

Anybody home in billybobs world of fun ?

Quote[/b] ]But Haaretz cited senior officers as saying troops were being exposed to an unnecessarily high risk by remaining in the densely populated camp and that rocket launchers had also been moved from Jabalya

What´s your point ?

The launchers have been moved, not destroyed

Can you read ?

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]GAZA CITY, (AFP) - Israel's massive military operation into the northern Gaza Strip (news - web sites) shows no sign of a let-up after two deadly weeks that have seen 111 Palestinians killed, mainly children, and Qassam rockets still being fired into Israeli territory.

Objective accomplished? But Sharon's motive is not the attacks alone, this is a showcase of military might preceding the pullout.

Well, I'd be hopelessly optimistic if I'd claim that this incursion would permanently stop mortar/rocket attacks. Those weapons are crude, simple and easy to manufacture and not probably that hard to hide. This attack may serve as a deterrent for some time then the pounding will continue again.

Quote[/b] ]By the time I enlist and finish training, I hope they do need me in Iraq

Let me get this straight, you're reading law and after graduating you wanna go to Army and Iraq if it's still hot? In the meantime your college buddies get work and start making money while you're in a bootcamp with 17-or 18-year-olds doing basic training? Sure.

[Bernadotte 0]

...telling first-hand what they did during storms of ca.1948-1998 period.

Hmmm...

Was there any room in those 5 hrs for the period 1922 - 48, when a country called Palestine actually existed?

Afterall, isn't that what this is all about?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Let me get this straight, you're reading law and after graduating you wanna go to Army and Iraq if it's still hot? In the meantime your college buddies get work and start making money while you're in a bootcamp with 17-or 18-year-olds doing basic training? Sure.

Not law but criminal justice....

Quote[/b] ]Hello ?!?

Anybody home in billybobs world of fun ?

Did you even read my original post (like you say)?

Quote[/b] ]

Not because of the death toll but because the Israeli army said objective complete....

[Balschoiw 0]

*Basic language level mode enabled*

Missiles still wrooom into Israel

Missiles still flying from other places now

Missiles not destroyed, nor missile firing halted

*Basic language level mode disabled*

They did not advise it because the attacks stopped, but the launchers have been taken elsewhere.

Oh yes I did read it. But the attacks haven´t stopped. That´s what it is.

I never said different, but you said they did wich is untrue.

Nethertheless it´s funny that you don´t have a problem with all the kids killed. Yeah I know they´re all terrorists..that´s why...

You may find out that some quotes are a bit more detailed and therefore more precise, but that doesn´t matter much billybob, right ?

I already knew it´s useless talking to a teenager with no reality approach on such issues, but sometimes I thought that even you would have to accept some things as given, but again, I was wrong. Keep it up mate, you´re definately on the right track....

I won´t waste my remaining time here at the forums argueing , or better say, not argueing, with a teenager that is full of nonsense and memory gaps.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Was there any room in those 5 hrs for the period 1922 - 48, when a country called Palestine actually existed?

It is of course explained in the beginning, but as the title tells it is about the conflict itself after British mandate ended. Maybe it's narrowed to that period since pariticipants of that era are still alive and able to tell first hand information.

Quote[/b] ]Afterall, isn't that what this is all about?

No need to cynical, it's actually pretty unbiased documentary covering both sides and their atrocities. It's about much more than just Palestine issue.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I won´t waste my remaining time here at the forums argueing , or better say, not argueing, with a teenager that is full of nonsense and memory gaps.

Excuse me... I got a memory gap because you posted "terrorists attacks memo" and you really meant WMD/Terror link.

Quote[/b] ]

Nethertheless it´s funny that you don´t have a problem with all the kids killed. Yeah I know they´re all terrorists..that´s why...

You may find out that some quotes are a bit more detailed and therefore more precise, but that doesn´t matter much billybob, right ?

I posted way back (can you remember?) what my position was on Israeli-pal conflict. Let me refresh your memory (my position has changed a little), Israel does have the right to do something about the terror attacks but sometimes they do go overboard. The pals. well... have no excuse for blowing up themselves and killing civilians... do not give me that bullshit they have nothing to live for. They are too scared to deal with Hamas and co. and Israel looks like a "bad" guy because they are doing the job for them. I support a state called Palestine but they have to deal with those terror groups.

The situation is....how can I say... fucked up. I may agree with Israel that they have a right to do something about those attacks but it does not make me a lapdog. It is sad that children (is children considered up to 18?) were killed... some were innocent/minding their business and others...well no comment.... However, what about the Israeli kids were killed by terror. groups? You like to point out that pal. kids were killed but no comment from you when Israeli kids are killed....

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]36x10 kilometers

Anybody have DEM's and TIFF overlays for Gaza? This is just the right size, then we can show everybody just how small it really is.

[Bernadotte 0]

No need to cynical, it's actually pretty unbiased documentary covering both sides and their atrocities.

I didn't say it is biased.  However, it's not really possible to create a comprehensive documentary on the Arab-Israeli conflict that only begins with the founding of the state of Israel.  It's a little bit like saying a documentary titled ''America and the Vietnamese: The 10 years war'' could be a source of in-depth knowledge about the history of the Vietnamese conflict, eventhough it actually started about 8 years before the arrival of US combat troops.

[Bernadotte 0]

It is sad that children (is children considered up to 18?) were killed... some were innocent/minding their business and others...well no comment.... However, what about the Israeli kids were killed by terror. groups? You like to point out that pal. kids were killed but no comment from you when Israeli kids are killed....

LOL  Leave it to Billybob to justify the actions of the Israeli military by comparing them with those of terrorist organisations.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Leave it to Billybob to justify the actions of the Israeli military by comparing them with those of terrorist organisations.

So, you like playing easy mode?

Quote[/b] ]It is sad that children (is children considered up to 18?) were killed... some were innocent/minding their business and others...well no comment....

He accused me of not caring. From what I see from his posts in this thread he outweights the death of pals. more than Israelis...

[theavonlady 2]

I have no problems with reality Avon. Argue me on facts but leave out your tupperware gossip.

So pls tell me wich of the above summarize from the news is wrong, or not reality. To make it easy here they are point by point:

1. As a matter of fact at least 111 palestians got killed within 2 weeks.

2. They got killed within refugee camps.

3. The majority of the ones who got killed were children.

4. Even the israelian army suggested to end the operations.

5. It had no effect on missile attacks.

6. It killed a lot of innocent refugees.

Okay I´m happily awaiting your answer, Mrs Reality.

A big LOL and another one about your funny attempts. LOL

LOL.

Quote[/b] ]AFP: 'Mainly children'?

Tuesday, October 12, 2004

AFP opens their report today on the IDF's Gaza operation with this:

<ul>Israel's massive military operation into the northern Gaza Strip shows no sign of a let-up after two deadly weeks that have seen 111 Palestinians killed, mainly children, and Qassam rockets still being fired into Israeli territory.

'Mainly children'? The New York Times reported yesterday:

<ul>In 11 days of fighting in the northern Gaza Strip, Israeli forces have killed at least 90 Palestinians, including about 55 militants and 35 civilians, according to Palestinian hospital officials.

The dead include 18 Palestinians who were 16 or younger, according to a count by The Associated Press.

And those are Palestinian and press sources, not even Israeli.

This is a material error by the AFP, and should be corrected immediately.

Comments to: contact@afp.com

UPDATE: HonestReporting spoke with the AFP news editor in Jerusalem regarding this error. The editor acknowledged the statement was wrong, and said a correction from AFP is forthcoming.

[bn880 5]

Woow, that really changes everything Avon...

And the NEW York Times... or "The Gray Lady"

Quote[/b] ]In 2003, the Times admitted to journalism fraud committed over a span of several years by one of its reporters, Jayson Blair, and the general professionalism of the paper was questioned, though Blair was immediately fired following the incident. Questions of affirmative action in journalism were also raised, since Blair was African American. Several top officials, including the chief of its editorial board, also resigned their posts following the incident.

On May 26, 2004, the Times published another significant admission of journalistic failings, admitting that its flawed reporting during the buildup to war with Iraq helped promote the misleading belief that Iraq possessed large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. [1] (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/international/middleeast/26FTE_NOTE.html) While this "From the Editors" piece didn't mention names, a large part of the incriminated articles had been written by Times reporter Judith Miller.

A second self-criticism by Times ombudsman Daniel Okrent went further. "The failure was not individual, but institutional," Okrent wrote. "War requires an extra standard of care, not a lesser one. But in the Times's WMD coverage, readers encountered some rather breathless stories built on unsubstantiated 'revelations' that, in many instances, were the anonymity-cloaked assertions of people with vested interests. Times reporters broke many stories before and after the war - but when the stories themselves later broke apart, in many instances Times readers never found out. ... Other stories pushed Pentagon assertions so aggressively you could almost sense epaulets sprouting on the shoulders of editors. ... The aggressive journalism that I long for, and that the paper owes both its readers and its own self-respect, would reveal not just the tactics of those who promoted the WMD stories, but how the Times itself was used to further their cunning campaign." [2]

An admission, great way from keeping yourself from being burned to the ground... not that people have enough brains for that anymore.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]However, it's not really possible to create a comprehensive documentary on the Arab-Israeli conflict that only begins with the founding of the state of Israel.

OK avoid it at all costs then. Some documentaries just are made the way they trust you to know some basics that led to current situation. Mandate is told and explained and that Palestine was there, I'm not interested about Arabian Lawrence in this case for instance.

Like if I want to see documentary about Napoleon I probably should know something about French revolution.

[Bernadotte 0]

1. As a matter of fact at least 111 palestians got killed within 2 weeks.

LOL.

Quote[/b] ]'Mainly children'? The New York Times reported yesterday:

<ul>In 11 days of fighting in the <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>northern</span> Gaza Strip, Israeli forces have killed at least 90 Palestinians, including about 55 militants and 35 civilians, according to Palestinian hospital officials.

Did Balschoiw say Northern Gaza?

As you are so eager to point out, Avon, the IDF carries out operations all over Gaza.  In fact, the above statistics about Palestinian kids killed in Northern Gaza would not even include the following killing in Southern Gaza:

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Dead Palestinian girl 'riddled with bullets'</span>

The Israeli army has begun investigating the death of a 13-year-old Palestinian girl said to have been shot dead by soldiers then riddled with bullets by their commander.  On television and in newspapers soldiers claimed that the officer shot her in the head and emptied a magazine of bullets into her body.

Iman el Hamas was walking to school last week when she strayed near an Israeli army post in Rafah. Soldiers opened fire and killed her.  The company commander then approached the body and fired two bullets at her head before switching his gun to automatic, the soldiers alleged. Doctors found more than 20 bullets in her body.

The soldiers were so disgusted by the slow pace of an army investigation that they approached the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth to demand the officer's dismissal.

I would only wish that these courageous soldiers were the rule and not the exception.

[Bernadotte 0]

OK avoid it at all costs then.

No, and please spare me the histrionics.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]No, and please spare me the histrionics.

With pleasure.

Quote[/b] ]Gaza official escapes bomb blast

Moussa Arafat blamed other Palestinians for a previous attack

A controversial Palestinian security official related to Yasser Arafat has escaped an apparent car bomb attack in Gaza City without injury.

Moussa Arafat, whose brief promotion earlier this summer caused protests among Palestinians, said the explosion was an attempt to assassinate him.

Nobody was hurt in the blast which happened as his convoy left the main security headquarters in the city.

Israeli defence sources have denied any link to the explosion.

Security officials said they believed a car bomb had gone off just moments after Gen Arafat's convoy passed by.

[Baphomet 0]

-edit- someone beat me to it...

Speaking of dead children. Has anyone else heard about that recent incident in which an Israeli soldier blew the gaff on a commanding officer for running up to a wounded palestinian girl and emptying a clip into her after she was shot? The story I heard is that she was walking to school, she was late and she took a short cut. A wrong turn into a restricted area in which she came across some israeli soldiers. Being scared, dropped her book bag some 50 or so yards away and ran and they shot her thinking it was a bomb. Then mr. sicko did his thing.

I'm not trying to sound particularly irreverant so I'm sorry if that's the case.

That seems to be the hot topic right now and I caught that briefly on the tele before I went out earlier today.

My personal take on it is that since these two sides have been at war for so long, and the fighting's been so bitter. Eventually you're going to get people on both sides so desensitized and psychologically affected by it that you'll come across the occasional crazy who will empty a clip into a kid just because they came from the other side.

[theavonlady 2]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

Dead Palestinian girl 'riddled with bullets'

Size doesn't matter. Facts do. Let's see who's right. Time will tell:

Quote[/b] ]Two Soldiers Back Up Commander´s Version

17:28 Oct 12, '04 / 27 Tishrei 5765

The controversy over the killing a few days ago of a 13-year-old Arab girl - apparently a terrorist decoy - continues. IDF Chief Prosecutor Brig.-Gen. Avi Mandelblit has ordered an investigation into the case, following accusations by soldiers that their platoon commander fired a burst of bullets into the girl's already-dead body. However, two soldiers in the platoon have now come forward in their commander's defense.

One of the soldiers told Maariv:

For several weeks now, we have been in a state of high alert due to warnings of infiltration attempts. Only two weeks ago, three of our friends were killed in Morag. With death suddenly arriving at our doorstep, we were extremely tense. We knew the terrorists were coming, we just weren't sure when. On the day in question, we spotted a child just over 100 meters from our post. At first we thought she was a terrorist, not a girl; we were sure the moment had arrived, that which we had been talking about all along. We immediately knew what we had to do: to open fire. We all opened fire.

After we fired, the platoon commander went out to make sure she was dead. He fired only two bullets at her from a relatively distant point, fearing she was wearing a bomb belt. He then headed back to the outpost, but suddenly turned around and fired a long burst. I saw where the body was, and in which direction he fired. It wasn't even close [to the girl]. He fired towards Rafiah, in response to a burst of fire...

The soldiers who turned to the media tried to frame him, because he was a tough commander and often handed out harsh punishments. The veteran soldiers were angry with him. I also was tempted to say he had done it, but that's not the way. It would be a despicable thing to do," the soldier said.

A second soldier in the platoon confirmed that the soldiers who accused their commander had ulterior motives.

IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon told the Cabinet this week that the girl had been dispatched by terrorists as a decoy in order to draw out soldiers and turn them into targets for terrorist snipers. Yaalon explained that the girl was in a closed military area. In addition, the girl reportedly threw a bag at them - a suspicious move, under the circumstances, even though the bag was later found to contain only schoolbooks and no explosives.

Quote[/b] ]I would only wish that these courageous soldiers were the rule and not the exception.

They are the rule here. Ask about the rule of employing children in war on the other side of the border. But that doesn't bother you. Hypocrite.

[Baphomet 0]

So now it's an issue of he said/some other guys said.

Eh. Office politics out in the middle east?

Either way. Some poor kid is dead.

[theavonlady 2]

Did Balschoiw say Northern Gaza?

He said:

Quote[/b] ]5. It had no effect on missile attacks.

This is plain and simple a lie. Very few rockets (I think none the least few days but I'd have to confirm) are landing in the Sderot area, which indeed was the major problem (large town - large target).

They are now landing further south on my smaller and sparse communities - and not that many to begin with.

Quote[/b] ]As you are so eager to point out, Avon, the IDF carries out operations all over Gaza.

Go ahead and contact the AFP and tell them not to retract their false headline. You know the facts better than everyone here.

[theavonlady 2]

So now it's an issue of he said/some other guys said.

Eh. Office politics out in the middle east?

Either way. Some poor kid is dead.

You mean intent of soldiers in battle is irrelevant?

If the story is true, it's disgusting on the part of the IDF officer and he should be tossed out.

If the story is false, then one has to start asking who possibly put the child up to the task of approaching an IDF position alone and for what purpose.

But it makes no difference. She's a sha'hid now and the afterlife couldn't be better - or so she's been told over and over again.

[Baphomet 0]

I seriously doubt anyone will know the truth now. It seems like it's going to turn into a big accusation festival.

Regardless of her religious beliefs, which in this context aren't much different than a christian (the whole go to heaven when you die and things are hunky dory). Some kid died, the fact that she didn't have anything on her that would imply she was a threat makes it worse. In my opinion.