The Middle East part 2

[Donnervogel 0]

If the Palestinian leadership truly wanted peace, then they would support this, as it would make it easier for Israel to stop the militant/terrorist Palestinians who Arafat claims he can't control. I don't see how assasinating terrorists gives the terrorists the right to kill innocent civilians. If the Palestinian leadership would take action against these people than Israel would not have to. Arafat doesn't give a damn about the Israelis, or the Palestinians. The only person he's trying to help is himself. Many of those settlements which are supposely illegal are being dismantled by the Israeli government.

PS: The way this is going this should probably be merged in the the Middle East thread.

well the problem is that you seem not to understand. No Plaestinian leader (wanting peace or not) could accept amputation of big parts of their soil because of "illegal" settlements inside their territory:

This is the plan for the wall. (No all is built yet)

the green line is the "legal" border.

This wall cuts trough cities. It's built on land that palestinians own without their permission. It keeps people away from their wokring places and it's hard for many people to get to the nearest hospital. Because you can't just pass the checkpoints and gates at the wall. You have to wait for quite some time to pass.

[denoir 0]

Its also sad that the very Euro-controlled Hague has used this as an opportunity to expresss their dislike of Israel(I didn't say Jews necessarily, just Israel as a country), and their support for Palestinian militants and terrorists.

Eh? First of all it's not Euro-controlled, it's UN controlled with among others US judges on the bench. As for the "support for Palestinian militants and terrorists" - that's utter bullshit.

Europe is not pro-palestinian. It's USA that is pro-Israel. While you have a strong Jewish minority in the US and a historic warm relationship to Israel, Europe has nothing of the sort with the Palestinans. We're neutral in this conflict. Just because you are pro-Israel, you should not confuse neutrality with being pro-Palestinian.

[Apollo 0]

And besides annexing palestinian region's ,this wall is also very strategicly placed when it comes to water sources. (water being a very valuable good in that region)

Quote[/b] ]Europe is not pro-palestinian. It's USA that is pro-Israel.

I agree ,their are lost of Jews lobbying for Israel in the U.S as far as i know or heard ,but it's not an argument that can be proven easily.

[Donnervogel 0]

Quote[/b] ]Europe is not pro-palestinian. It's USA that is pro-Israel.

Not an argument i would dare to make ,not that i disagree ,their are probably lost of Jews lobbying for Israel in the U.S as far as i know or heard ,but it's not an argument that can be proven.

US foreign policy is clearly pro-Israel. You can see this best in the UN security council. While the whole world agrees on resolution that critisize israel for some of their actions the US is constantly vetoing them. The are only few exceptions when it's not justifyable for the US to veto it.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

If the Palestinian leadership truly wanted peace, then they would support this, as it would make it easier for Israel to stop the militant/terrorist Palestinians who Arafat claims he can't control.  I don't see how assasinating terrorists gives the terrorists the right to kill innocent civilians.  If the Palestinian leadership would take action against these people than Israel would not have to.  Arafat doesn't give a damn about the Israelis, or the Palestinians.  The only person he's trying to help is himself.  Many of those settlements which are supposely illegal are being dismantled by the Israeli government.  

PS: The way this is going this should probably be merged in the the Middle East thread.

well the problem is that you seem not to understand. No Plaestinian leader (wanting peace or not) could accept amputation of big parts of their soil because of "illegal" settlements inside their territory:

This is the plan for the wall. (No all is built yet)

"]http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/special/ost/17847/17847_1.jpg[/img]

the green line is the "legal" border.

This wall cuts trough cities. It's built on land that palestinians own without their permission. It keeps people away from their wokring places and it's hard for many people to get to the nearest hospital. Because you can't just pass the checkpoints and gates at the wall. You have to wait for quite some time to pass.

erm whats wrong with the map then, if i read it correctly the wall is being built within israel's border's

[Milkman 1]

Hmmm for once I will have to agree with the courts. I find it bizarre that Israel would make this fencline inside of Palestine, instead of on their border.

[Milkman 1]

Quote[/b] ]Europe is not pro-palestinian. It's USA that is pro-Israel.

Not an argument i would dare to make ,not that i disagree ,their are probably lost of Jews lobbying for Israel in the U.S as far as i know or heard ,but it's not an argument that can be proven.

US foreign policy is clearly pro-Israel. You can see this best in the UN security council. While the whole world agrees on resolution that critisize israel for some of their actions the US is constantly vetoing them. The are only few exceptions when it's not justifyable for the US to veto it.

Of course America is Pro-Israeli, we have millions of Jews living in our country and many of them vote. Do you think they would vote for a government that condemned the actions Jewish homeland? Simple politics, not anything special.

[denoir 0]

I agree ,their are lost of Jews lobbying for Israel in the U.S as far as i know or heard ,but it's not an argument that can be proven easily.

There's nothing strange or wrong about it. The US has always been a close friend of Israel - providing everything from large financial and military support to diplomatic protection.

I don't think anybody would deny that.

[billybob2002 0]

Hate to be an ass but is there a special thread for this stuff....

[Donnervogel 0]

No shit America is Pro-Israeli, we have millions of Jews living in our country and many of them vote. Do you think they would vote for a government that condemned the actions Jewish homeland? Simple politics, not anything special.

Hey I don't doubt that ;) I was just answering to someone else.

@Monkey Lib Front

Ermm..

EDIT: smaller image

[Milkman 1]

No shit America is Pro-Israeli, we have millions of Jews living in our country and many of them vote. Do you think they would vote for a government that condemned the actions Jewish homeland? Simple politics, not anything special.

Hey I don't doubt that ;) I was just answering to someone else.

@Monkey Lib Front

Ermm..

Israel map

Yeah sorry for sounding rude I was trying to make a point but now I am late for a meeting and can't finish my thoughts. :/

[bn880 5]

Well this is about the wall... but the wall is part of the situation, that's why you get these cross comments.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

sorry i was looking at it inside out if you can see what i mean, but yea i have no problem with Israel Building a wall on there border as tbh it will proball be the only way to stop the majority of them comming intot he country.

[Donnervogel 0]

sorry i was looking at it inside out if you can see what i mean, but yea i have no problem with Israel Building a wall on there border as tbh it will proball be the only way to stop the majority of them comming intot he country.

well if it was on their border the int. court wouldn't have declared it as illegal. the point is that according to the plan and what is already built most of the wall is inside (partally deep inside) palestinian territory.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

tbh, atm the im just sick of both sides, if the wall in or out of the proper border's stops suicide bombings and thus in turn israel feels less likely to hit out then do it, i just don't care anymore.

[bn880 5]

tbh, atm the im just sick of both sides, if the wall in or out of the proper border's stops suicide bombings and thus in turn israel feels less likely to hit out then do it, i just don't care anymore.

Most people have this exact view on the Israel/Palestine issue, so you're not alone. I used to have it as well, and if things don't change in the next 5 years I'll go back to it.

Edit: That or my head will explode. Like one ofthose androids who can not find a solution to illogical situations.

[Donnervogel 0]

that's exactly the worst reaction you can have. You're allowing highly illegal and unhuman things to happen. If you just would have lost the base of your existance because of this you would care. Only because you're in a privileged position you don't care.

Of course the terrorists are doing unhuman things too. And you have to stop them. But what about that majority of palestinians that don't do anything like that? Why do they have to be punished and why they have to live in even more misery to protect a few hundred illegal isreali extremist/settlers on the next hill that steal their land and water.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

tbh, atm the im just sick of both sides, if the wall in or out of the proper border's stops suicide bombings and thus in turn israel feels less likely to hit out then do it, i just don't care anymore.

Most people have this exact view on the Israel/Palestine issue, so you're not alone.  I used to have it as well, and if things don't change in the next 5 years I'll go back to it.  

You think that after all this time it's then going to Suddenly change in the next 5 years then i think you will be comming back to the afor mentioned View. Clinton had the Best shot at peace and now Bush is in, he's royaly screwed the lot. I would not be suprised if a major conflict will originate from this area, especially if some sort of Chemical or dirty nuclear device was detonated on Israeli soil(Which imho is the goal of most Fanatical Islamic Terrorist group).

[bn880 5]

I don't know, I hope so, .... It will be near 2010, it's bad enough that it's almost 2005 now with this going on. It's like we are powerless when up against our primal reactions, even with all the education and institutions.

[mr_rOk 0]

The wall is being built so deeply in Palestine territory so that the remaining area to Israel's border can serve as a buffer zone.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Put the fence on the border, and the problem is solved. Some compensation for destroyed Olive Oil farms should be in order too.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]The wall is being built so deeply in Palestine territory so that the remaining area to Israel's border can serve as a buffer zone.

Buffer zone? ??

First of all that would be illigal anyway.

secondly why the heck do you have a bufferzone wich in one region is 5 kilometres wide (a bit much for a buffer zone) ,and in other places 50 km wide??? (repeat ,tad to big for bufferzone)

Third ,how could this bufferzone ON ISRAELI SOIL be more efficiant in keeping terrorists OUT? Shouldn't the bufferzone be on the other side then??? (between Fence and palestinians rather than behind fence? )

As i see it once the Palestinians are trough the fence they are trough ,and no 50 kilometers empty bufferzone won't stop them there.

Besides ,you either annex a lot of Palestinians inside youre bufferzone right into Israeli territory (so the terrorists that  MAY be among them are right into Israeli territory) or you displace them from youre bufferzone and they begin to pileup along youre fence. (not very good security wise neither)

[billybob2002 0]

Bah, the terrorists could just dig under it...if they had the time and willness

[kavoven 4]

I think, if you're a terrorist, the wall won't stop you, as it said by billybob2002, they just dig a tunnel

the terrorism must stop, no question, but it's not the right way, building up a wall. i can hardly remember, what happend with the last "wall" between too countrys. (Germany and GDR)

so many people died for nothing, and I bet, that'll happen again. just a few months ago a child was shot there...

with that wall, the Israeli show the Palestinian, that they aren't interested in a solution for their problem, they just want don't want them in their country, and that sadly includes all the Palestinian, even those(the majority), who aren't involved in terrorism...

[Colossus 2]

Put the fence on the border, and the problem is solved.

Yes, you are right!

I really don't like that they are building the wall

on Palestinian territory. This only makes more problems for both parts, why can't you lisen?