Climate Change

[denoir 0]

Akira, how old are you? 31, an American from texas right?

Come to Poland for some reality check.

And what reality check on a global level could you possibly give me in Poland to prove there is no global warming?

Funny, thing, I always thought of Texas as America's answer to Poland.

[Akira 0]

Akira, how old are you? 31, an American from texas right?

Come to Poland for some reality check.

And what reality check on a global level could you possibly give me in Poland to prove there is no global warming?

Funny, thing, I always thought of Texas as America's answer to Poland.

I like to think of it as.....there is Austin....and then there is the Rest of Texas.

[Acecombat 0]

Umm fellows i genuinely thought that they used a tsunami pic i was wrong in guessing that but the way that man was running and kid in the water , well ive seen very similiar pics on the news from that tsunami incident so my thoughts went there.

It was a mistake so forgive me

[Gordy 0]

Akira, how old are you? 31, an American from texas right?

Come to Poland for some reality check.

And what reality check on a global level could you possibly give me in Poland to prove there is no global warming?

It has nothing to do with warming but with thinking.

When you are born in the country as US with all things provided from the start and which you take for granted, then it is fine and shiny.

Although, when you get to live in country like Poland where everything is fu..d up. One is working his ass off and earning, lets say 3 000$ a month and all he can buy (after paying all bills) is f.. potatoes then I say I F... weather warming.

[Winters 1]

Akira, how old are you? 31, an American from texas right?

Come to Poland for some reality check.

And what reality check on a global level could you possibly give me in Poland to prove there is no global warming?

Funny, thing, I always thought of Texas as America's answer to Poland.

I like to think of it as.....there is Austin....and then there is the Rest of Texas.

Is that TexUSMC i see sneaking up behind you?

[Donnervogel 0]

Akira, how old are you? 31, an American from texas right?

Come to Poland for some reality check.

And what reality check on a global level could you possibly give me in Poland to prove there is no global warming?

It has nothing to do with warming but with thinking.

When you are born in the country as US with all things provided from the start and which you take for granted, then it is fine and shiny.

Although, when you get to live in country like Poland where everything is fu..d up. One is working his ass off and earning, lets say 3 000$ a month and all he can buy (after paying all bills) is f.. potatoes then I say I F... weather warming.

now I see your reasoning... so let's say we warm the earth up. The gulf stream breaks down, poland will get severly colder. You will have to heat much more, you will have to spend much more to buy warm clothes, to isolate your buildings and you will use much more oil.

Now who do you think will suffer more from those increased costs for everything? The "rich" US/EU 15 or Poland? Hmm hmm... it is you who should worry more about it since you will be affected stronger when your costs increase.

[denoir 0]

Although, when you get to live in country like Poland where everything is fu..d up. One is working his ass off and earning, lets say 3 000$ a month and all he can buy (after paying all bills) is f.. potatoes then I say I F... weather warming.

Well, Poland was messed up by 50 years of communism followed by a very fast conversion to fairly raw capitalism. Give it a bit of time. Of course your short term priorities will be of higher importance to you, but as you over time get in tune with the EU living standards, you'll start caring more about the long term priorities.

And btw Poland has signed the Kyoto agreement. The US has not, citing economic worries.

So you are already more comitted to it than America, showing that you do infact care more.

[Acecombat 0]

Damn you people are worried about consumer goods and their pricing .... what about the fact that the sea levels rise will engulf major coastal citys of today , where will those people go , the infrastructure? Then theres the massive weather extremties to deal with. Theres a hell lot more at stake then putting extra wood in the fireplace and buying a sweater.

[Akira 0]

Akira, how old are you? 31, an American from texas right?

Come to Poland for some reality check.

And what reality check on a global level could you possibly give me in Poland to prove there is no global warming?

It has nothing to do with warming but with thinking.

When you are born in the country as US with all things provided from the start and which you take for granted, then it is fine and shiny.

Although, when you get to live in country like Poland where everything is fu..d up. One is working his ass off and earning, lets say 3 000$ a month and all he can buy (after paying all bills) is f.. potatoes then I say I F... weather warming.

Well lemme tell you what my thinking is.

I live in Austin, TX, one of the most expensive cities in the US to live in, I make less than your $3000, am going to grad school full time, and I am married. And I am still willing to give up more so that people like you stop screwing up the Earth.

So if you think everything is "shiny" and provided for me, that shows more of your stereotypes than anything about me.

[Gordy 0]

Damn you people are worried about consumer goods and their pricing    .... what about the fact that the sea levels rise will engulf major coastal citys of today , where will those people go , the infrastructure? Then theres the massive weather extremties to deal with. Theres a hell lot more at stake then putting extra wood in the fireplace and buying a sweater.

Well, sorry that I am trying to survive.

We have great new pill for it. Those real down to earth worries.

[Donnervogel 0]

Damn you people are worried about consumer goods and their pricing .... what about the fact that the sea levels rise will engulf major coastal citys of today , where will those people go , the infrastructure? Then theres the massive weather extremties to deal with. Theres a hell lot more at stake then putting extra wood in the fireplace and buying a sweater.

When someone says he doesn't "care" about global warming than you won't impress this person much as long as you don't show him why he personally should care about it. It's the major problem about all this climate things. People always think they won't be affected or put other things to higher priorities. So when I tell to somone in Poland that some pacific island might disappear because of global warming he prolly won't start caring. I must tell him why he should care.

But I agree with you. There are more important things. But the harsh truth is that many people are egoistic, they are ignorant towards things that don't affect them personally.

[Gordy 0]

Anyway it is good to read that there people with ideas who stand by them.

It'd be good if you did what you say rather than say just for sake of it.

[bn880 5]

Screw this, blackboard and the image tags, whatever...

[Necromancer- 0]

I really don't mind that people like to driver around their 400 BHP muscle cars.. or Americans driving around their Hummers and Chevrolets..

It's just the engine that really bothers me.

[Acecombat 0]

How can depression be lifted by driving a fast fuel in-efficient car?

[Gordy 0]

How can depression be lifted by driving a fast fuel in-efficient car?  

Does everything have to be reasonable and efficient. Where is room for passion and fun.

[Acecombat 0]

How can depression be lifted by driving a fast fuel in-efficient car?  

Does everything have to be reasonable and efficient. Where is room for passion and fun.

Yes passion now thats describing it correctly , at first you seem to be only asserting the fact that because life sucks i need this to keep me up.

Passion , love , hobby is something different, we all have them whether life sucks or not .

I am big fan of a ferrari as well die hard infact but i dont see any use of travelling in it if i only have to buy the grocery and do a round around rtown and come back it would be useless , if i were a racer then thats another story.

P.S:I do usually go and drool at the ferrari showroom here

[HotShot 0]

Did anyone see that programme on UK TV ('Pannorama' maybe, or Horizon??) on by cleaning our atmosphere of smog, we are just letting more and more heat get in and warming the planet quicker? I thougth it was pretty good anyway. They had found that on the days after Spet. 11th, when planes were grounded in the U.S. for several days, the ground temperature rose by a couple of degrees in the U.S., and thats just from no vapour trails (i think) from planes.

Since discovering this, it seems we could reach a stage where the effects of global warming were irreversible (e.g. ice sheets melt for ever) by 2025 instead of 2045 (i THINK they were the dates). Scary stuff, cause do you clean up the atmosphere and stop all these extra cancer cases and such, or leave it be and slow down the warming?? Of course, if we were to stop polluting so mcuh at the same time as cleaning the atmosphere it would be OK, but that aint gonan happen... unless jesus comes and does his miracle-making-thing   ...you all better start building arks!

Also, IMO, China is gonna be the worst than the USA in the long run, seen how much coal they burn?! At least the US has some nuke plants to get energy from which arn't dishing out as much pollution as coal plants.

I guess that we would be better off just preparing ourselves for what will happen, then trying to stop it, as i can't see us ever bringing emmissions down enough to stop global warming, at least not until its too late.

[EiZei 0]

Also, IMO, China is gonna be the worst than the USA in the long run, seen how much coal they burn?! At least the US has some nuke plants to get energy from which arn't dishing out as much pollution as coal plants.

But then again, I think they are going to be building more nukers in the future, their CO2 production is surprisingly low considering the HUGE population.

Quote[/b] ]

I guess that we would be better off just preparing ourselves for what will happen, then trying to stop it, as i can't see us ever bringing emmissions down enough to stop global warming, at least not until its too late.

But there might be a 0.5% fall in GPD growth and we cant afford SUVs! THE SKY IS FALLING!

[Noon416 (OFPEC) 0]

It's amusing to see everyone's missed the single biggest flaw with the Kyoto protocol...

The Kyoto protocol works on a "Carbon Credit" basis.

Each country is assigned a certain number of credits based on it's ability to soak up carbon pollution vs it's production of pollutants. They can then sell those credits to other nations if they have a surplus.

You can see the flaw coming right?

No?

To use an example of Australia and New Zealand.

New Zealand soaks up more pollution than we create, so have a surplus of credits.

Australia is the opposite, creating more pollution than it can soak up, so it's is in debit.

So Australia simply approaches New Zealand and says "Here's money, give us credits".

New Zealand replies "ching ching! How many you need?".

So now Australia buys enough credits to say that "yes, on the balance, we're not a polluter anymore so we don't need to change our current practices".

Net reduction in global pollution: Zero

Now roll this out to the rest of the world and see how many large industrialised nations rush to buy credits...

[denoir 0]

Wrong. The point of it is global reduction, not local. The net sum is not zero, but a 5.2% global reduction compared to the refrence year of 1990.

To illustrate, suppose you have country A and B. Both A and B used to each dump 100 units of CO2 and must now reduce it to 70 units each. Now A invests in über-green technology, and in fact reducing its output to 40 units. Country B can now buy the surplus 30 units from A, and keept dumping 100 units.

The result? An overall reduction of 60 units, while country A gets a ton of cash because it invested in green technology. Less Co2 is dumped and economic incentive is created for greener technology.

The really good incentive comes from a second step. The emission rights a country gets is directly distributed to the companies that are responsible for the pollution - resulting in a very strong market-level incentive for using technology that pollutes less. In the end it's not countries trading, but companies who are willing to do whatever it takes to incerease profits - even if it means using and creating more environmentally friendly technology. Reducing their pollution translates directly into money.

[Noon416 (OFPEC) 0]

Unfortunately your example is based on countries of an equal pairing, denoir.

I use the Australia/NZ comparison as it's more accurate to what will be represented in the 'sink credits' marketplace.

Quote[/b] ]Under the Protocol Australia is permitted to increase its emissions to 8% above its 1990 emissions and New Zealand is required to maintain its greenhouse gas emissions at the level they were in 1990.

Source: Fact Sheet 2 International

I don't disagree that the Kyoto Protocol intentions were noble, but the basic system is too open to abuse.

Also of note is the punishments for failing to meet committments .

In punishing one country for non-compliance, the result is the punishment of potentially a number of countries that have lived up to their obligations. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" Link to source

In my mind, it's a kneejerk agreement that hasn't been fully worked through before release, and relies on "You have to be seen to be doing your part" emotional blackmail to enlist members.

Not to mention the fact that the world's 3 largest polluters (accounting for well over 25% of entire global emissions), the US, China & India, have not ratified it and hence don't fall under it's emissions controls during the first compliance phase and likely won't ratify it during the other phases beyond that...

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Edit: Broken link</span>

[Rommel 2]

Funny, its seems to snow a little bit more down where I live....

This normal for this discussion?

[SpecOp9 0]

Looks more like season effects to me.

[Donnervogel 0]

@Noon416 (OFPEC)

Well I have to agree that the Kyoto protocol is not the solution to the cliamte problem. We won't be able to prevent major effect due to global warming with the kyoto protocol only. But it's not due to the incompetence of the people that wanted the protocol. It's rather to due to the ignorance of some nations participating that negotiated special terms and conditions that flaw the original Kyoto protocol. Nevetheless it's one step into the right direction and if it would be possible to reach those goal it would be a major success because it would prolly be the first time any global effort really succeeded. And that would be a base to continue from.

Now Denoir explained it well how the Kyoto protocol works. Now theoretically it could be that some nations buy enough credits to continue their pollution or even increase it in some cases. But you forget the other effects. The credits will make it much more expensive to continue with pollution. While the companies that will continue to pollute will have an increase in their costs and thus will lose their competitive position other companies that invest in greenhous gas reducing technology will benefit from it and get even more income, giving them a better competitive position and more capital to invest. Therefore you have a clear economical spur to reduce greenhous gas output. And the best part of it is that it's in line with the market.

But the critical part with the Kyoto protoclo for me lies somewhere else. It's the political will of the nations. Nobody likes changes because they require effort. So many economical lobbyists will obviously fight Kyoto. When a nations doesn't reduce it's output and doesn't implement the credit and rights system from Kyoto... what will you do? We don't have an international authority that would punish those nations. We can't really enforce anything. I fear Kyoto will fail due to the ignorance of some nations that will have an effect on everyone. Because when some nations start boycotting Kyoto even though they signed it, it will have an effect on everyone and maybe more and more nations will boycot Kyoto and then it would prolly break down.

If we continue as we do the future generations could see us as worse people than the nazis. Destroying the whole planet...