JAM3 - Beta testers

[AgentFox2 0]

The way we compensated for the lower AI detection in JAM2 was via the lower init speed, meaning it is harder to aim at long ranges, making you get closer to get a good shot off.

I agree with making it harder to aim at longer ranges, but unfortunately it is quite the opposite in JAM2. It is actually EASIER to hit targets farther away, at least with most of the newer addons, since in close, the bullets actually have a highly arced trajectory. The impacts are 1-2 meters higher than the aimpoint.

I would personally prefer it, as a player, if with the new JAM we had more realistic SD rounds (ie supersonic for most) right out of the box. My meaning being that the more popular JAM-compatible addons out there (Earl's weapons, Laser's modifications of those, and similar) would be more realistic immediately, without having to edit ALL of those SD variants to fit a new supersonic magazine definition. How much of an affect can changing that have? How many addon weapons out there realistically would use subsonic ammunition? I don't think that changing the subsonic rounds to supersonic rounds (both in velocity and sound profile) would significantly affect mission playability.

It seems like the advantages to changing to supersonic would be:

More realism out of the box for the weapons that operationally use supersonic ammo. Most of the JAM-compatible SD weapons out there are M4s or variants. So MOST of the addons out there that would be used in missions would actually GAIN realism rather than lose it.

Disadvantages:

To change the sound profile may affect older mission's gameplay due to AI.

I don't see how that works out logically...How would it affect the mission design? It would affect how the players play the mission. If mission designers could redesign around the new supersonic ammo, what changes would they make? I can't think of any as a mission designer.

Advantages for staying with subsonic SD:

Mission consistency.

Disadvantages:

With the more popular addons out there, there is going to be a serious zero problem (rounds impacting a meter above the aimpoint at ranges closer than 150m)

Reduced realism for MOST JAM-Compatible addons

Personally I think the advantages of changing to supersonic outweigh the drawbacks, but I guess it is not really my decision to make.

Take care, all.

[SelectThis 0]

I hear your reasons for recoding the existing SD mags as supersonic ones. TBH I don't mind which way you guys go, as long as it's consistent (ie, raise init speed and AI detection values).

STT

[cornhelium 0]

Hi STT,

Thanks for your comments. I think that would be the more popular option; existing SD mags=supersonic/higher detection while new SD mags=subsonic/stealthy.

I'll give it a few days for everyone to chew it over before doing anything  Meanwhile I'll play around with the aud/vis fire settings.

Cheers,

CH

[ruff 102]

I hear your reasons for recoding the existing SD mags as supersonic ones. TBH I don't mind which way you guys go, as long as it's consistent (ie, raise init speed and AI detection values).

STT

very true

raise init speed and ai detection values

[cornhelium 0]

Hi folks,

Yep - I'll raise the AI detection.

For the supersonicSD rounds, I'll use tweaked versions of the suppressed M4 and AK sounds from the MAP, while keeping the old M4FireSD for the subsonic rounds (big thanks to JockoFlocko).

Question: I was thinking of moving the soundhits folder from JAM_Magazines.pbo to JAM_Sounds.pbo. That way, all sounds would be external to the JAM core, and could be updated in new soundpacks. Does anyone have any objections to this ?

Cheers,

CH

[AgentFox2 0]

Question: I was thinking of moving the soundhits folder from JAM_Magazines.pbo to JAM_Sounds.pbo. That way, all sounds would be external to the JAM core, and could be updated in new soundpacks. Does anyone have any objections to this ?

Cheers,

CH

Sounds good to me.

[gatordev 216]

I read through some of this thread when it started, but I guess I blew it off.  Now that I've reread through it, this looks great.  One question:  is the beta closed now?  I know earlier that people were PM'ing Avon or CH.

I think the final decision on the SD ammo makes sense, as well.  Great work!

[cornhelium 0]

Thanks Gatordev,

We still need some more beta testers, especially for MP, so if you're interested please drop Avon or myself a PM

Cheers,

CH

[cornhelium 0]

Hi,

I'm now adjusting the Assault Rifle SD mags to supersonic, with new subsonic mags to preserve the old values.

Questions:

1. SMGs Do the silenced and unsilenced SMG speeds look OK? Currently, these are the initspeeds:

MP5 Unsilenced=supersonic 457m/s

MP5 Silenced =supersonic 457m/s          

(BIS MP5=supersonic 400m/s)

[Edit, according to worldguns.ru, the MP5SD3 has an integral silencer which slows standard ammo down to subsonic. Will set MP5SD initspeed accordingly and add a new SUPERsonic mag with similar initspeed to the unsilenced mag.]

Uzi Unsilenced= supersonic 457m/s

Uzi Silenced= SUBsonic 350m/s

[Edit: as above, will add a new SUPERsonic mag with similar initspeed to the unsilenced mag.]

JAM_ESMG Unsilenced= SUBsonic 323m/s

JAM_ESMG Silenced= SUBsonic 323m/s

Should I make any adjustments/additions here?

2. Silenced Sniper Rifles

M14 Unsilenced= supersonic 817m/s

M14 Silenced= SUBsonic 350m/s

West 7.62x51mm 5rd mag Unsilenced = supersonic 792m/s

West 7.62x51mm 5rd mag Silenced  = SUBsonic 350m/s

West 7.62x51mm 20rd mag Unsilenced = supersonic 853m/s

West 7.62x51mm 20rd mag Silenced  = SUBsonic 350m/s

Dragunov unsilenced = supersonic 830m/s

Dragunov silenced = SUBsonic 350m/s

[Edit: After some research, I cannot find any information on subsonic ammo for the Dragunov. Therefore I will change the existing SD mag to supersonic and add a new SUBsonic mag to preserve the old values. Ditto the West 762x51.]

Should I make any adjustments/additions here?

Any thoughts or comments would be welcome. Thanks

CH

[BlackScorpion 0]

Errr... 350m/s is supersonic.

[nubbin77 0]

If I'm not mistaken, a meter is not truely a meter in OFP. At a certain point if he put it too slow it would look slower than a paintball. I don't know what the conversion is though. I could be wrong, but I remember this being discussed at some point. The point is, its not really possible to use real world data for everything in OFP because the physics of OFP are a little different then real world physics.

[cornhelium 0]

Quote[/b] ]Errr... 350m/s is supersonic.  

Thanks BlackScorpion, I was wondering who would be the first to point that out.

IRL It's borderline subsonic (speed of sound at sea level about 331-346 m/s at 0-25 degrees C), but in game I would guess it's a balance between realistic and usable as nubbin77 noted.

Getting swiftly back to the question, what do you think about the SMG and Sniper rounds? What rounds should available?

Cheers,

CH

[ruff 102]

let me get this right

is the supersonic replacing the subsonic? and subsonic becoming a new ammo class

if it is that is real great and adds more realism and usuability to sd weapons

[cornhelium 0]

Hi Ruff,

Quote[/b] ]let me get this right

is the supersonic replacing the subsonic? and subsonic becoming a new ammo class

Yes, exactly.

Sniping from a distance now works with SD weapons, though you can't just lie in the open and plug away

Regarding my two questions above, what do you think about the sniper rifle ammo?

Cheers,

CH

[ruff 102]

Hi Ruff,

Quote[/b] ]let me get this right

is the supersonic replacing the subsonic? and subsonic becoming a new ammo class

Yes, exactly.

Sniping from a distance now works with SD weapons, though you can't just lie in the open and plug away

Regarding my two questions above, what do you think about the sniper rifle ammo?

Cheers,

CH

if sub sonic ammo has that muzlle velocity then it should

since the real advantage of the subsonic am,mo is thats it's not as loud as the supersonic

but the snipoer mags should at least be accurate within 100 to 200 m or scopes will be useless

[General Barron 0]

Hey all! I know this thread started a while ago, but I have a suggestion to throw in there (if it hasn't been suggested already).

It would be nice to include weapon jamming scripts into the addon. Kammak and myself were working on some various systems that would work weapons like those in JAM, although we never quite completed it. The scripts require a special weapon or magazine, so they would have to be included in an addon, not as a separate, standalone script. I've always loved JAM, and this would be a great addition, IMO.

[cornhelium 0]

Hey GB

Good to hear from you. This sounds very interesting.

JAM3 is at "feature freeze" stage now, due to extremely limited time and manpower, but we would be very interested in looking into this long-term.

Thanks,

CH

[ruff 102]

@gb

would the jamming scripts work with ai aswell?

cause i don't want the player just jamming and ai freely engage you without worrying about jamming

it's like the map pack feature of belleding out etc, works on you but not the ai, giving ai another unfair advantage

a jamming feature would be good but as long as the ai has it aswell

if not make it so that it can be activated by a trigger like ecp

with default features on off and a trigger can switch it on

@corn

i was wondering how loud would the new supersonic ammo would be?

how far would you have to be for the ai not to hear you or see the muzzle flash

i just want to know what advantages would there be if i choose a supersonic ammo since detection values will be higher

[C4P741N 0]

I thought accurate jamming of weapons was impossible in OFP due to the fact you can't add individual bullets to a soldier, only mags. So if you get a jam at round 23 of a 30 round clip a script would kick in to remove your ammo until you clear the jam when you either lose the next 23 rounds or gain 7. Both of which aren't the most realistic options. just curious. Can't wait for the release.

Cap.

[cornhelium 0]

Hey Ruff,

Quote[/b] ]i was wondering how loud would the new supersonic ammo would be?

how far would you have to be for the ai not to hear you or see the muzzle flash

I'm currently using these values:

audiblefire=6        /// increased from 0.035

visiblefire=0.035   //// not changed, as suppressor would still hide flash IRL

visiblefiretime=2    /// not changed

This works fairly well. AI will hear your weapon from about 115-125M, but have no clue where it is coming from, even out in the open on Desert Island.

Once you actually hit someone though, their detection seems to increase, and they might send troops to look in your direction, or 50/50 they might see you and shoot you straight away. With intelligent use of cover though, both human and AI players can use supersonic ammo very effectively.

I want to give this a lot of testing with ECP 1.075 before release, as it looks like the AI have much improved detection values.

I was also planning to bump the damage values up by .5 for the supersonic ammo, to account for the greatly increased muzzle velocity.

So the hit values for W556 would look like this:

Unsuppressed: 9

Suppressed supersonic: 8.5

Silenced subsonic: 8

All subsonic and supersonic mags use separate fire sounds.

General update: Release candidate will hopefully be done this weekend,  but release will not be until after my exams in early June. We plan to use the time in between to do a lot of testing with ECP, MP and the new SD and AT values to make sure no old missions are messed up. Also updating the Rainbow soundpack and maybe cooking up a third soundpack.

Ps. I've posted a request for AT values in the CAVS thread

here. Any ideas would be welcome - thanks mates

[ruff 102]

sounds good

rl really slows things down

i really understand though

i really wanna play ofp all day long but uni and all that stuff gets in the way

keep up the good work

i reckon for the AT values doesn't really worry me much

it's the aiming of ai

it's alrite if the at4 rockets are weak but let the ai shoot them fairly accurately or vice versa if u wanna increase damage

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]@gb

would the jamming scripts work with ai aswell?

Yes, the scripts would work with both players and AI, although personally I don't think you would ever notice a thing like that happening to the AI (but you definately would notice if it happened to you!). The jamming would have to be run via a script (fired EH specifically), so it would be entirely up to the editor whether or not to add in the feature. The possible exception would be if the actual JAM units added this script into their configured eventhandles, but I would agree that there should be some way to toggle it off in this case.

Quote[/b] ]I thought accurate jamming of weapons was impossible in OFP due to the fact you can't add individual bullets to a soldier, only mags.

Well, there are multiple ways to simulate a jammed weapon, with the one you mentioned being only one of them. However, you can configure magazines with 23, 25, 28, etc rounds, so the type of method you are thinking of would work in an addon. It doesn't work so well when you have multiple magazine types possible to use for the same weapon, however, but this is getting a little technical....

@cornhelium

Of course, just send me a PM whenever you want to talk about how it could be implemented. It's been a while since I was working on this, so I'll have to dig all the info back up, anyway .

I know you are close to a release, but I have one suggestion or question: please, please, please, will the AT weapons be less accurate than the BIS versions? Obviously the stock weapons like the LAW and RPG are WAY too accurate, so I would hope their dispersion values are fixed in this addon. Actually, I can't remember... perhaps they already were better in JAM2. (Do you even have LAWs, or is this supposed to be modern, and thus has AT4's instead?)

Another hope I have is that you make AT weapons take 2 slots (maybe even 3) instead of the 1 they took in JAM2. An RPG warhead or an extra AT4 tube is MUCH bulkier than a single 30 round 5.56mm magazine, and this should be reflected in the magazine slot use. I'm not sure what other AT weapons you have, but other weapons should take up similar space (SMAW ammo should take the same or less space than AT4, etc). This is my biggest beef with JAM2, and I really, really hope you would consider this request (if you haven't already).

[ruff 102]

Quote[/b] ]@gb

would the jamming scripts work with ai aswell?

Yes, the scripts would work with both players and AI, although personally I don't think you would ever notice a thing like that happening to the AI (but you definately would notice if it happened to you!). The jamming would have to be run via a script (fired EH specifically), so it would be entirely up to the editor whether or not to add in the feature. The possible exception would be if the actual JAM units added this script into their configured eventhandles, but I would agree that there should be some way to toggle it off in this case.

well my point really was that the ai might come up to you at cqb and his weapon jams and your weapon jams that would be cool

or his weapon jams and yours don't that'll be extra cool

the best would be your weapon jams ai shoots he misses his weapon jams and you take out your trusty sidearm

that's what i'm hoping for the jamming script

but you guys are from ecp anyways!!!! ecp should apply that! unless it's not possible with certain magazines?

[BlackScorpion 0]

Actually, I can't remember... perhaps they already were better in JAM2. (Do you even have LAWs, or is this supposed to be modern, and thus has AT4's instead?)

JAM_RPG7Rocket

JAM_RPG7AARocket

JAM_RPG7APRocket

JAM_RPG7ALLRocket

and...

JAM_M72Rocket

JAM_M72AARocket

JAM_M72APRocket

JAM_M72ALLRocket

JAM RPG and LAW mags. Try 'em.

[cornhelium 0]

Hi there,

Quote[/b] ]JAM_RPG7Rocket

JAM_RPG7AARocket

JAM_RPG7APRocket

JAM_RPG7ALLRocket

and...

JAM_M72Rocket

JAM_M72AARocket

JAM_M72APRocket

JAM_M72ALLRocket

JAM RPG and LAW mags. Try 'em

Yep. Also:

JAM_AT4ammo      // M136. AI will prioritise armour targets

JAM_AT4AAammo  //M136. AI will prioritise air targets

JAM_AT4APammo  //M136. AI will prioritise personnel targets

JAM_AT4ALLammo //M136. AI will fire at anything with no real priority

I hear you GB on the BIS AT weapons' accuracy, but I've never had this problem with the JAM AT stuff. AI are pretty darn good at missing the targets you assign them in my experience

Progress continuing. SD JAM weapons like BAS and ORCS-US now shoot great, and with time to take your aim you can reliably pull off headshots at 150m, Tears of the Sun stylee

Audiblefire=6 seems about right for the SupersonicSD assault rifles, but for the 7.62 SDSnipers I might bump it up to 7 or 8.

Cheers,

CH