Dying For Your Country

[Heatseeker 0]

I would give my life for a rightfull cause, my country or any country in the world are not included, let them politicians give theirs instead if they really think their will is so important, i swore i would do so when i was drafted into the army and gave them precious lifetime and work almost for free.. well i lied. I pay my taxes, let me live my life without having to kill another human being or waste it over nothing, not much to ask.

Fight for your beliefs, not others, i believe war should always be a last resourt, there is nothing honorable in being a manipulated puppet without a will of your own.

The "ultimate" sacrifice?, give life for your country? Anyone who buys such big pile of bull needs serious help.

[Jinef 2]

The brave soldiers of the Israeli Defence Forces are dying for their country.

They are also killing for their country. Destroying human life, families etc.

It goes both ways.

If I was to die on ops, yes my mum and dad would cry a lot and I wouldn't ever want to put them through that. However it's a risk I was aware of when I signed up.

Oh and just looking briefly at this thread, 70% of it isn't genuine. It's 12 year olds who are desensitised to death and have nothing really to say.

[brgnorway 0]

Die for my country? Over my dead body! I'd kill for drink though!

[Gollum1 0]

I would give my life for a rightfull cause, my country or any country in the world are not included, let them politicians give theirs instead if they really think their will is so important, i swore i would do so when i was drafted into the army and gave them precious lifetime and work almost for free.. well i lied. I pay my taxes, let me live my life without having to kill another human being or waste it over nothing, not much to ask.

Fight for your beliefs, not others, i believe war should always be a last resourt, there is nothing honorable in being a manipulated puppet without a will of your own.

The "ultimate" sacrifice?, give life for your country? Anyone who buys such big pile of bull needs serious help.

You're confusing 'country' with 'state'. Your politicians are the state, the territory occupied by the nation you belong to is your country, i.e the country is more like your nation than your state.

edit: sp

[DarkLight 0]

I do care about them... But i sure as hell don't think it's worth dying for.  Yeah i'd do A LOT to defend stuff like that...

Quote[/b] ]So there's no way that i'm gonna waste my life on some piece of land or some ideals that i probably don't even really care about.

Ok maybe if someone'd say, there will be no more war, hunger, problems, blahblah ever if we can shoot you now then i mig............. .......................................................;Hahahaha what the fuck? I feel like I'm replying to three people at once

Look...

Don't get so damn serious about it

It's just my opinion ooook?

I say that i think dying for your country is stupid

I say that i'd never want to do anything like that

I say that i am not prepared to die for anything

Except maybe for someone that i truly truly love/like/youknow

That's my opinion ooookeeeeeeeeeey

I think in paraghraps (or whatever the word is), just connect the dots and finish the puzzle damnit

There's no need to start bashing the crap out of my theory, it's just the way i think. Yeah it might not all be right, but speaking english well isn't something you are born with, remember?

[DarkLight 0]

Quote[/b] ]You know, there's nothing wrong with fighting for your freedom.  At this point in my life i just wouldn't want to die for the ideals of a country.  

I have huge respect for all the people that HAVE died for it.  Because their sacrifice is incredible.

Quote[/b] ]No i mean that dying for your country doesn't change anything to the fact that you're dead.  So i don't see how someone can think dying for your country is better than dying on some other way.  I just don't see the good part about it.  What's the damn point, you're dead, who cares about your country?  Just stay alive goddamnit!

Hahahaha what the fuck? I feel like I'm replying to three people at once

Those people fought against an invading force, i was talking about wwII. I said that in such a case i'd (have to) fight too because if there probably wouldn't be much choice left.

The second quote is about dying for your country, not necessarily protecting it. Like the american soldiers. I don't want to bash them, i respect it that they have the guts to go do stuff that i wouldn't want to do. However i think there's a lot of difference between both.

But as i said, it's just my opinion, ok?

Yeah you might disagree and that's exactly why it's my opinion

I have respect for those men that are on the battlefield because they do risk their lifes. I just would rather nooot do it because... well... i just don't want to die goddamnit

Life's waaaaay too beautiful

oh well

[Gollum1 0]

It's OK, it's alright, it's over now.

[DarkLight 0]

It's OK, it's alright, it's over now.

I think i'm gonna cry  

i wanne go home now

[IceFire 0]

I do care about them... But i sure as hell don't think it's worth dying for. Yeah i'd do A LOT to defend stuff like that...

Quote[/b] ]So there's no way that i'm gonna waste my life on some piece of land or some ideals that i probably don't even really care about.

Quote[/b] ]Ok maybe if someone'd say, there will be no more war, hunger, problems, blahblah ever if we can shoot you now then i mig............. .......................................................;Hahahaha what the fuck? I feel like I'm replying to three people at once

Look...

Don't get so damn serious about it

It's just my opinion ooook?

I say that i think dying for your country is stupid

I say that i'd never want to do anything like that

I say that i am not prepared to die for anything

Except maybe for someone that i truly truly love/like/youknow

That's my opinion ooookeeeeeeeeeey

I think in paraghraps (or whatever the word is), just connect the dots and finish the puzzle damnit

There's no need to start bashing the crap out of my theory, it's just the way i think. Yeah it might not all be right, but speaking english well isn't something you are born with, remember?

Just goes to show that some people are plain selfish pricks who only care about one thing, themselves and thing that please themselves.

People like this don't want to have the burden of doing something "noble" as defending their country because to them nobleness is simply not enjoyable.

People like this only care about having a good time and are only concerned with their own priorities.

If life is so beautiful to these people, they should be willing to protect it. Good things in life do not come without making sacrifices. The country that one lives in and enjoys life is why you protect it.

[Longinius 1]

[DarkLight 0]

I do care about them... But i sure as hell don't think it's worth dying for.  Yeah i'd do A LOT to defend stuff like that...

Quote[/b] ]So there's no way that i'm gonna waste my life on some piece of land or some ideals that i probably don't even really care about.

Quote[/b] ]Ok maybe if someone'd say, there will be no more war, hunger, problems, blahblah ever if we can shoot you now then i mig............. .......................................................;Hahahaha what the fuck? I feel like I'm replying to three people at once

Look...

Don't get so damn serious about it

It's just my opinion ooook?

I say that i think dying for your country is stupid

I say that i'd never want to do anything like that

I say that i am not prepared to die for anything

Except maybe for someone that i truly truly love/like/youknow

That's my opinion ooookeeeeeeeeeey

I think in paraghraps (or whatever the word is), just connect the dots and finish the puzzle damnit

There's no need to start bashing the crap out of my theory, it's just the way i think.  Yeah it might not all be right, but speaking english well isn't something you are born with, remember?

Just goes to show that some people are plain selfish pricks who only care about one thing, themselves and thing that please themselves.

People like this don't want to have the burden of doing something "noble" as defending their country because to them nobleness is simply not enjoyable.  

People like this only care about having a good time and are only concerned with their own priorities.  

If life is so beautiful to these people, they should be willing to protect it.  Good things in life do not come without making sacrifices.  The country that one lives in and enjoys life is why you protect it.

I love you too pumpkin

(btw

how many times do i have to say that i don't talk about defending your country only.  I'd defend it too, just not for the same reasons.)

yeah i bet i'm a selfish prick

thank you very much

opinions like that, you can keep to yourself

i can tell you one thing mister

Instead of acting like the hero and spending all your cash on blowing eachother to pieces, perhaps you should think about  NOT BLOWING EACHOTHER UP FOR A CHANGE (it's fun you know).

You feel so fucking proud that you 'have the balls' to fight for your oh so beautiful country.  You call me a prick because i would never go to Iraq (fe, just an example, don't take it too serious) to fight some weird war?

The only pricks on this world are those who start wars, think about that mister president.

am i a prick because i don't want to die for some useless bullshit like war?  Cuz that's what it is

bullllshit

those who start the killing are the pricks, ok?

not me ffs

am i a prick because i don't think dying in the name of your country is a good thing?

well thank you

good to hear your opinion!

Now what's next, are you gonna nuke me because i'm a prick?

Am i a prick because i don't want to go to some other country and die?

seriously what's wrong with all of you

ex-fucking-cuse me!

sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

Of course i am willing to protect my life, duuh, but i sure as hell am not going to fight some dumb fucking war that isn't my business in the first place.  Yeah yeah go ahead and start bashing me for being selfish.  

I am far from selfish and i'd highly appreciate it if you'd shut the hell up instead of saying crap like that.

You go ahead and die in your useless wars.  

I can react in only one way when i see some of you 'noble heroes' on tv =>  

call me whatever you want

i'm glad that i'm not as dull minded as some ppl out there...

edit:  

i'm being a naughty boy

sorry if i reacted a bit too... uhm

hard

it just isn't nice to call ppl selfish pricks while you have no clue at all who i am

it seems to me that we won't understand eachother very fast

i dunno if it are my fucked up brains

or something else

all i know is that most of you clearly don't understand my point of view

as selfish as it may seem, i can guarantee you that i'm not selfish at all

i might a bit strange, but i'm perfectly comfortable with that

now

perhaps it's better if i just stop sharing my opinion about this because i clearly can't express my feelings very well and perhaps it's better that i just shut the hell up instead of making myself look even worse

i thought my english wasn't THAT bad but when i look at your reactions i read stuff that i don't agree with at all

So i guess there are some communication problems...

oh well

i guess you get the point

ps: i'm not a selfish prick

[xawery 0]

That's an interesting distinction you make, Gollum: nation and state. Might I remind you that in a democratic country the state IS the nation? The two cannot be seperated. As long as some bellicose bastard who won't ever feel a bullet rip through his flesh is willing to put troops in harm's way, I am not willing to jump on the 'dying for your country'-bandwagon.

Furthermore, I dare to venture that 75% of the people who so eagerly want to sacrifice their lives haven't ever been confronted with the true horrors of warfare. It's not OFP or "The Longest Day" you know - you don't catch a bullet in the heart, keel over and die a noble death. No, you choke on your blood, piss and shit your pants while your screams are drowned out by those of your buddies, who suffer a similar fate. To sit in your cosy chair and post on the internet how willing you are to die for your country, now THAT'S fucking disrespectful towards those who have died on the countless battlefields of the past century.

You'd think that after the twentieth century, people would have caught up with the idea that WAR IS NOT NICE and there is no glory in death when Total War is involved. It's a machine, fuelled by flesh and blood of nameless soldiers.

I am not advocating selfish disregard for things greater than oneself. Ideals are certainly worth fighting for. Dying belongs to the risks that accompany fighting, alongside physical and mental mutilation. There is no glory to this - it's a bitter necessity, at least as long as one wants to be able to look oneself in the eyes.

I have yet to find a country/state/nation that would reflect my ideals. They are far too broad to be encaptured by such a diffuse and unreliable concept as 'country' or 'nation'. Hence, dying for one's country is illogical in my eyes.

[IceFire 0]

I think you're overreacting. I never said you were a selfish prick. I am just saying people who think and talk like you are because they arn't willing to defend their country.

You said you are not willing to fight in a war because it's just bullshit that is none of your business. Fine, that makes you who you are.

But what if an enemy force such as the Russians were to invade your country? That you say is none of your business and that is just bullshit?

The problem here isn't in your unwillingness to fight wars(while that IS a problem), it's your lack of loyalty and devotion to your country or anything else for that matter that is your fundemental problem.

[Gollum1 0]

That's an interesting distinction you make, Gollum: nation and state. Might I remind you that in a democratic country the state IS the nation? The two cannot be seperated.

Umm, the state is not the nation even in a democratic country, the state governs the nation and is separated from it, that's why we have elections every few years, to make sure the state still consists of popular decision-makers. And that's what they are, decision-makers, not decisions, and they can make decisions that disagree with the nation. They can well be separated both as definitions and actual persons.

YOU KNOW WAR ISN'T ACTUALLY COOL KIDS

Of course not. I hope you aren't talking to me

Quote[/b] ]I am not advocating selfish disregard for things greater than oneself. Ideals are certainly worth fighting for. Dying belongs to the risks that accompany fighting, alongside physical and mental mutilation. There is no glory to this - it's a bitter necessity, at least as long as one wants to be able to look oneself in the eyes.

We are in agreement.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think you're overreacting.  I never said you were a selfish prick. I am just saying people who think and talk like you are because they arn't willing to defend their country.

That's what I call populistic ignorant bullshit!

Are you the moral judge and jury over other people who might choose other ways of resistance than dying for their country.

Is the old man and woman who cannot enlist but still helping worth less? Do you look down on the young man or woman who's so afraid of dying that they chose to fight in other ways?

Would you die for me - and do you think I'd die for you?

Are you suicidal?

Quote[/b] ]The problem here isn't in your unwillingness to fight wars(while that IS a problem), it's your lack of loyalty and devotion to your country or anything else for that matter that is your fundemental problem.

The fact of the matter is that I can think of lots of people who have no reason at all to fight for my country in a possible war!

The indigenous people (samer) and gipsys who were lobotomised and sterilised, denied to speak their language, robbed of their property - you tell me if those poor bastards would die for me and my "country" ?

[IceFire 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think you're overreacting. I never said you were a selfish prick. I am just saying people who think and talk like you are because they arn't willing to defend their country.

That's what I call populistic ignorant bullshit!

Are you the moral judge and jury over other people who might choose other ways of resistance than dying for their country.

Is the old man and woman who cannot enlist but still helping worth less? Do you look down on the young man or woman who's so afraid of dying that they chose to fight in other ways?

An elderly couple who tries to contribute to the war are doing a respectable service to their country.

The prostitute who services young soldiers and marines is also doing service for her country.

A young man who is too afraid to die to join up has not met his obligation to his country in my opinion. A part of serving your country is the self sacrifice you make doing even if it means risking or losing your life.

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]Umm, the state is not the nation even in a democratic country, the state governs the nation and is separated from it, that's why we have elections every few years, to make sure the state still consists of popular decision-makers. And that's what they are, decision-makers, not decisions, and they can make decisions that disagree with the nation. They can well be separated both as definitions and actual persons.

The state is a reflection of the nation, that is the fundament of democracy. The state is far more than just the decision makers. It is the holistic institution of government, as well as the laws it, as well as the rest of the country are subject to. It is just as abstract as the notion of nation. While there is a clear delineation between state and private persons in the legal sense, I find it to be rather artificial to make such a distinction in practice.

Quote[/b] ]

YOU KNOW WAR ISN'T ACTUALLY COOL KIDS

Of course not. I hope you aren't talking to me

Please don't type something up and quote it as if I had said it. I am not (only) saying that war isn't nice, I'm pointing out that death is a dreary affair that has little nobility in it.

[Leveler 0]

You can really say anything about ''dying for your country'' since it is so broad an expression. Historical battles come to mind: Did the germans at Stalingrad die for their country? What about those that died in the invasion of France. Or the thousands of SS troops coming from Holland, France, Eastern European countries and Norway? Did they die for their countries? Does dying for your country equate to dying for ideology, beliefs? And what about the suicide bombers in Middle East and the Americans in Iraq? Or the Spartans in Thermopylae? These examples illustrate that appart from a very few special cases, nobody wants to die for his country. Sure, they went to war expecting glory, a good pay or to avoid something back home but survival is always the foremost. In the special cases, people are either too damn stupid or they have no choice and then they do their best to make sure that their lives have not been lost in vain. My personal opinion is that dying for anything except children, family etc is simply stupid. Much better to live and fight, it takes more courage after all.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]An elderly couple who tries to contribute to the war are doing a respectable service to their country.

So if a young man does the same you still think of him as moraly corrupted or worth less than the soldier?

If you knew that there was a 100 percent certainty that you would die as a result of joining up - would you still do it?

I wouldn't!

Also, you are aware of the fact that the workforce in the industry cannot consist of old people, women and children alone? Why not let the ones who are "afraid" or unwilling to die fill those places?

Quote[/b] ]The prostitute who services young soldiers and marines is also doing service for her country.

Is she - or is she profiting from higher demands and pussy galore?

Quote[/b] ]A young man who is too afraid to die to join up has not met his obligation to his country in my opinion. A part of serving your country is the self sacrifice you make doing even if it means risking or losing your life.

A nations need all kinds when rebuilding after a war. Many young men will never have had the opurtunity, the courage or the political will to give the "ultimate sacrifice" .

I think no lesser of them - they belong to my nation just as much as I do!

[IceFire 0]

Quote[/b] ]An elderly couple who tries to contribute to the war are doing a respectable service to their country.

So if a young man does the same you still think of him as moraly corrupted or worth less than the soldier?

That depends on the young mans circumstances. Is he actively avoiding military service or are there other factors involved.

[Gollum1 0]

The state is a reflection of the nation, that is the fundament of democracy. The state is far more than just the decision makers. It is the holistic institution of government, as well as the laws it, as well as the rest of the country are subject to.

These laws and the whole government are subject to change by the decision makers and have been created by them in the first place, so I think simplifying 'the state' to 'decision makers' works quite well.

Quote[/b] ]While there is a clear delineation between state and private persons in the legal sense, I find it to be rather artificial to make such a distinction in practice.

On the contrary, in practice is where the difference is the most obvious.

For an extreme example, the state in democratic countries has the power to declare war without consulting the nation first. If George W. Bush would declare war against Canada this instant out of spite, I bet there would be a difference between the will of the state and the nation. The president who declares war could have run for office on the very platform of being a pacifist, his image reflecting the nation as he is elected. He can then make decisions completely complying with the democratic process during his term which run totally against the nation's will and why they elected him. He can end the state of being a reflection of the nation, and isn't this often what states do? Politicians not fulfilling their promises is quite a common gripe.

Of course, one may think that the reflection of the nation in this case was that it was easy to fool, not that it was pacifist?

Still in response to your quote above, how can you not make a distinction between a state and nation? Continuing that logic, going against the state's decisions in a democratic system would without exception also mean betraying your nation. That would mean that the state represents the nation fully and does every decision according to their will, which is how it works in theory. Not in practice like you said, in practice the nation and state are very separate with different goals.

It's the middle of the night here so let me know if I missed something in your posts and completely misunderstood you due to my sleepy stupor.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]YOU KNOW WAR ISN'T ACTUALLY COOL KIDS

Of course not. I hope you aren't talking to me

Please don't type something up and quote it as if I had said it.

I apologize, it's a habit I've picked up from another forum, just meant to be a bit humorous.

Your post formatting is a bit messed up by the way...

[Placebo 29]

All off topic posts deleted, Ice Fire's 4 x one line replies deleted.

Sorry Nick and sorry people who tried to help, but obviously it failed.

Ice Fire if you need to practice editing/quoting send yourself a PM and keep replying to it.

Everyone get back on topic please or I'll change the title to "dying for your favourite moderator"

Edit: Oh and DarkLight & <s>Gollum</s> Icefire stop bickering please, if you can't discuss the topic maturely and calmly find a different topic please

[Gollum1 0]

Edit: Oh and DarkLight & Gollum stop bickering please, if you can't discuss the topic maturely and calmly find a different topic please

I think you have me confused with IceFire, my last post to DL was over two days ago and I have nothing to do with this 'selfish prick' line of discussion.

[Placebo 29]

Hah! well errr in that case let this be a lesson to you then!

Sorry about the mix up

[DarkLight 0]

I think you're overreacting.  I never said you were a selfish prick. I am just saying people who think and talk like you are because they arn't willing to defend their country.

You said you are not willing to fight in a war because it's just bullshit that is none of your business. Fine, that makes you who you are.  

But what if an enemy force such as the Russians were to invade your country?  That you say is none of your business and that is just bullshit?

As i said a couple times before, if someone'd attack my country i'd fight back.

I'd have different reasons but i'd fight back...

Quote[/b] ]The problem here isn't in your unwillingness to fight wars(while that IS a problem), it's your lack of loyalty and devotion to your country or anything else for that matter that is your fundemental problem.

OK i tried explaining something here but i came to the conclusion that i just can't it's too hard to have a good discussion in english...

To make a long story short.

The main problem here is a difference in culture i think. In america it's a very normal thing to be very proud of your country (maybe it's almost a must). Over here it's a lot different. Sure we are proud too, just not that extreme. We're waaaay too critical for that... Everything our government/country does wrong, we see and we are very critical about it.

I dunno what's best, i know i won't change for you and i hope you won't change for me either. We can use some variety in this world