European Politics Thread.

[Donnervogel 0]

Bordoy can you please provide a source for that article. I want to know if it's something serious or again some populistic fact twisting ;)

[Bordoy 0]

Bordoy can you please provide a source for that article. I want to know if it's something serious or again some populistic fact twisting ;)

Sure

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/GrantSwank50530.htm

http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=21765

It's probably bollocks, lol.

[Donnervogel 0]

Bordoy can you please provide a source for that article. I want to know if it's something serious or again some populistic fact twisting ;)

Sure

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/GrantSwank50530.htm

http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=21765

It's probably bollocks, lol.

In the first link the article is listed under the category "Opinions Editorial". So IMHO the authencity and the conclusions drawn from this article may be quite flawed.

[iNeo 0]

Sweden is a good example - we have higher unemployment than Germany or France, but our economy is doing quite well. We have a significant growth, almost no debt and a budget surplus.

You keep saying that. What's your source? I'm under the impression the economy is just getting worse.

[Necromancer- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Islamophobia’ / Turkey Out Now That France Negates EU Constitution?

In the last several days, the EU Council of 46 concluded to establish a law that made criticizing Islam a crime throughout Europe . The Council referred to "Islamophobia" as being criminal activity.

All this was initiated by Turkey .

Turkey prides itself on being a totally secular nation, though it is in fact very much a Muslim nation. Yet it downplays its Muslim religion because of the bad press Islam is getting? Therefore, Turkey tries to have the world conclude that it is not really a rabid Islamic country; instead it is a secular country to the core.

However, obviously it is very much a Muslim power seeking to infiltrate the European Union. Already it has convinced the EU Council that to state anything critical about Islam could land one in jail or worse. Does that make Turkey a totally secular nation? Or does not that make Turkey an Islamic state seeking to overcome the world for Allah?

But now that the French have negated the EU constitution, Turkey may be in limbo.

According to The Washington Times report, "Analysts and voters said yesterday that the treaty's defeat in France had to do more with (the) potential membership for Turkey . . ."

That in itself is revealing. The defeat of the EU constitution by French voters had to do with "potential membership for Turkey "? How very, very interesting.

Then there is an awareness that Turkey in the EU is a bad thing. Then there is a fear that Turkey being a part of the EU would bring havoc to the continent? Then there is a grassroots knowledge that Turkey is in fact a prop for worldwide Muslim takeover and not just a benign nation with totally secular intentions?

Could the French negative be God’s positive in saving Europe — irreligious as it is — from the Islamic blood bath planned for all infidels? Could God be protecting the Christian community from the global rule of Muslim might? Could genuine believers’ prayers be answered by this French NO to the EU constitution?

It is all a most intriguing event that occurred within the last hours. The French may be more of a divine tool that they ever envisioned

So now it's a crime to have an opinion on things?  

Make education secular... put that in the EU constitution.

Instead, educate the children with all other aspects of religion in scientific and philosophic manner...

This should solve the problem mostly of turning the whole community non-secular.

[denoir 0]

Sweden is a good example - we have higher unemployment than Germany or France, but our economy is doing quite well. We have a significant growth, almost no debt and a budget surplus.

You keep saying that. What's your source? I'm under the impression the economy is just getting worse.

No, it's getting better. Like everybody else we took a hit when the IT bubble burst, but now we seem to be out of it.

You wanted a source, sure - Dagens Industri (in Swedish):

http://di.se/Nyheter....d224840

Basically it says that for the current growth is 3.2%. UK which has the strongest growth of the EU15 (although it seems to be falling) is around 4%. Germany and France who have the weakest are at about 1.5%. Poland has around 5% growth.

[iNeo 0]

Sweden is a good example - we have higher unemployment than Germany or France, but our economy is doing quite well. We have a significant growth, almost no debt and a budget surplus.

You keep saying that. What's your source? I'm under the impression the economy is just getting worse.

No, it's getting better. Like everybody else we took a hit when the IT bubble burst, but now we seem to be out of it.

You wanted a source, sure - Dagens Industri (in Swedish):

http://di.se/Nyheter....d224840

Basically it says that for the current growth is 3.2%. UK which has the strongest growth of the EU15 (although it seems to be falling) is around 4%. Germany and France who have the weakest are at about 1.5%. Poland has around 5% growth.

And the debt to foreign countries and the budget "surplus"?

[denoir 0]

Use google.

http://www.affarsvarlden.se/art/72693

The national debt ( http://www.rgk.se/omstatsskulden.htm ), of 1251 bn SEK = €137 bn is relatively small. Finland has for instance a national debt of nearly 95000 bn SEK. You can see a comparison here: http://susning.nu/Statsskuld

And the inflation is under control as well:

http://www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____33831.asp

You can find any other information by a simple google query - you don't need me for that.

[iNeo 0]

Here's a better list of states' debt than the one of susning.nu, though it includes debt within the country. According to the Wiki one Sweden has a bigger debt than Finland as a percentage of the GDP (Finland must have an extreme GDP). And you said we had a "relatively small debt" but the susning article says we have "a relatively large debt" (though below the EU average). And this graph shows an increase the last couple of years, and uhm a disturbing increase last decade.

[iNeo 0]

In Belgium many people would rather assimilate in Europe than actually stay as Belgium ,understandably as really there doesn't exist such a thing as a "Belgian".

What are you then? Mix of French and Dutch?

[Supah 0]

In a way but I think they preffer flemish and walonian The Flemish (dutch speaking) and the Walonians (french speaking) have been at odds for ages. There is this issue Bla bla vildervoorde which is about the division of french and dutch speaking political seats or something. It really has heated up temperaments in belgium. I went to ieper's ww1 monument a couple of years ago and there is a lot of flemish vs walonian antagonisme going between the two groups. A lot of it centres around the claims that french speaking officers just sent dutch (of flemish as they say its not dutch) troops to their death and some accidents occured because the french officers refused to speak dutch or english so the men just had to make due with orders they didnt understand.

The true zealots in this have little love for each other. Being dutch myself I originally had more feeling for the flemish, to a degree I still do. But I also feel both side are being stubborn, unreasonable and bullheaded in this. But this has gone on for so long that reason no longer plays a part in it. Belgium nowadays is strictly devided in a flemish and a walonian part and the two parts dont intermix. Its like catholics and protestants in northern ireland Lite.

[Apollo 0]

In Belgium many people would rather assimilate in Europe than actually stay as Belgium ,understandably as really there doesn't exist such a thing as a "Belgian".

What are you then? Mix of French and Dutch?

IMO were Europeans.

Roughly 60% of Belgium is Dutch speaking and the rest is french speaking ,with a minority of German speaking people in the Oostkantons ,a small region annexed by belgium as part of the 1918 Versailles treaty.

Geneticly were the mix-pot of Europe ,this region has multiple times being controlled by foreign major powers ,like France ,Spain ,Austria ,Germany ,Holland ,many European wars have been fought here.The old Belgians of Julius Ceaser's time are by far geneticly not the people that we are today ,the have no relation to us ,even the Flemmish of the medieval times have few in common with us geneticly.Due to long periods of foreign control ,long wars and emmigration of indiginous people to places like the new world it's hard to tell how many ,or few people in Belgium actually still have roots to people living in this area 500 years ago.

Belgium as a trade country has also an excelent position in Europe ,in the heart of it ,Belgium has the most extended road network in Europe (free of toll) and many excelent seaports and rivers/canals or airports.

There is Flemmish nationalism in Belgium ,Flemmish are the dutch speaking portion of Belgium ,but they identify them as Flemmish rather than Dutch because of the cultural heritage from medieval times ,Although Flanders actually covered only half the are of BLegian Flanders today ,and half of historical Flanders is controlled by France.

Flemmish nationalism is somewhat ackward ,it also draws some strenght from the way French speaking Belgians in the past had been given more prominent positions ,for ex like in WW1 in the trenches (Flemmish soldiers with french speaking officers) ,or the university's wich were once mostly french only.

The Flemmish movement has some power in Belgium ,though spread among some party's ,some more extreme like others ,for ex. the Flemmish blok party ,wich is the largest party in Flanders (we have 3 goverments) ,this party would most likely have Belgian split in a Flemmish country and Walonian one ,but they are kept out of governing coalition.

There is almost no Walonian nationalism ,probably they are the belgians ,but probably they even feel more French.Though in the Belgian construction they profit somewhat ,being a poorer region in Belgian thus netto receiving funds from the richer Flanders ,partly a source for Flemmish resentment.

The Belgian royal family is french speaking nativly ,and often speaks few Dutch.

Actually i think many Belgians ,Flemmish and Walonians ,could be found for a split up where Flanders would be annexed by the Netherlands and Wallonia by France ,there is not much love between flemmish and wallonians and there isn't that much symphaty for the construction that is Belgium.

I'm not a Flemmish nationalism ,neither a Belgian.So i think i'm European ,feel's right to ,much less complicated.

Quote[/b] ]There is this issue Bla bla vildervoorde which is about the division of french and dutch speaking political seats or something.

Brussel - Halle - Vilvoorde.

Very complicated ,and the negotiations have recently failed grandiously to.  

It's about voting right's between multiple towns around Brussels ,the last decade's the Walonians have tightend their control of brussels by immigration northwards into once Flemmish towns ,thus making Flemmish there a minority.Obviously a sensitive issue ,and Brussels is really bad ,Flemmish and Walonians there are constantly in the clinch.

An ex. of this conflict is Walonian hospitals around Brussels.Belgian hospitals are free as a service ,but in French speaking hospitals they refuse to speak dutch to dutch patients ,even if these patienst only speak Dutch ,while actually most of them do understand Flemmish.You could be dying there and they wouldn't help you if you didn't speak french to them ,even if they understood you.Flemmish are always espected to know both languaghe's ,while Walonians mostly refuse to speak dutch.

I live in Ypres myself Btw.

Quote[/b] ]The true zealots in this have little love for each other. Being dutch myself I originally had more feeling for the flemish, to a degree I still do. But I also feel both side are being stubborn, unreasonable and bullheaded in this. But this has gone on for so long that reason no longer plays a part in it. Belgium nowadays is strictly devided in a flemish and a walonian part and the two parts dont intermix. Its like catholics and protestants in northern ireland Lite.

It might be a NI light now ,i wonder what would happen if both parts split up with the oh so strategicly important city Brussels ,the languaghe barrier runs right trough it.

I'm no part of those bullhead's ,btw these guys always shout most hard so don't think all Flmmish are all that fanatical.But should the both parts split up ,i could forsee conflict and limited civial war around some places.I hope not ,i hope Belgium can assimilate in europe before it split's up.

But the situation is getting dire ,the extreme party's are getting more powerfull ,Flemmish Blok already being such a large and popular party ,and the failure of things like Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde is only helping them

[Necromancer- 0]

I must admit that the Wallonians are very arrogant towards any non-French speaking person.

Last time I had an airsoft skirmish in Aywaille. After the skirmish we decided to have a snack in the local "friterie/frituur" (a place where u can eat french/belgian potato chips).

At the moment we entered the "friterie/frituur", the store owner just ignored us.

I really don't seem to understand why he does that... why he has got some kind of fobia to outside visitors.

[Donnervogel 0]

I must admit that the Wallonians are very arrogant towards any non-French speaking person.

Last time I had an airsoft skirmish in Aywaille. After the skirmish we decided to have a snack in the local "friterie/frituur" (a place where u can eat french/belgian potato chips).

At the moment we entered the "friterie/frituur", the store owner just ignored us.

I really don't seem to understand why he does that... why he has got some kind of fobia to outside visitors.

Maybe he feared you have come to rob him, I mean I can imagine you guys entering with rifle replicas and camoflage ;)

[Supah 0]

I must admit that the Wallonians are very arrogant towards any non-French speaking person.

Last time I had an airsoft skirmish in Aywaille. After the skirmish we decided to have a snack in the local "friterie/frituur" (a place where u can eat french/belgian potato chips).

At the moment we entered the "friterie/frituur", the store owner just ignored us.

I really don't seem to understand why he does that... why he has got some kind of fobia to outside visitors.

Yeah that attitude is pbb part of why most dutch people have little love for the walonians in general and the french to a certain degree

[denoir 0]

Bah, from my Nordic point of view, Belgians are just slow French people while Holland (a term equal to the Netherlands) is really just a German province.

Yeah, this union thing is going the completely wrong way. We should go back to the middle ages model where every shitty little province with its own dialect hates and wages war on its neighbours.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ] while Holland (a term equal to the Netherlands) is really just a German province.

Now I understand why they invade germany each year with their trailers. Maybe it´s just a "back to the roots" tour :-)

No offense though. I like Amsterdam very much.

I kept out this thread for quite a reason. I see myself as a european in many ways and I just can´t argue with guys who try to stage up reasons one after the other only because they pee their pants because of nationalistic ideas or an national identity which is infact nonsense. At least to me.

I wonder if they all still would be happy to end in endless cues at the borders like it was when I was young.

Sure, there needs to be a clear definition of europe, but there also needs to be the support of the people for the idea. It´s quite dissapointing that a lot of people can´t dare the risk to look over their own cup. Chance missed.

I can understand that people living on an island have a funny way of thinking and the burden of beeing a former colonial superpower that has degraded to a country with no real national identity other than financing a queen and crowding at soccer games, but all that permanent moaning and taking sideways is really not very much european. The Brits don´t hesitate to get special money from the EU and benefits other member countries don´t have but they are the first to leave the EU when matters like illegal wars are on the list. Oneday the EU eill have to tell the Brits: "Either you are with us or against us"

I don´t blame the people in france or the netherlands for the voting on the EU referendum. It´s local policies who got voted against there, not the EU thingy. A lot of people in that countries feel ashamed for that vote and they will finally find out that you can either isolate from the EU or stick with them.

People have to get the thing into their heads that noone tries to take something from them. It´s a community, not a slavery institution...

If you don´t like what I wrote, just think that I´m a stupid german, one of the biggest contributors financially to the EU ever.

[Donnervogel 0]

On a sidenote.

It seems to be pretty clear now that the Swiss population accepted the Schengen and Dublin threaties. Now they say it's gonna be 53% yes.

However it's not yet clear if it all takes effect. Schnegen/Dubin is one part of our bilateral threaties packet 2 that we have negotioated with the EU. But there is another point. I don't know the english expression. In german it's "Personenfreizügigkeit" literarily: person freedom (of movement). That's another thing that is heavily criticised by right wing populists and I guess it's less likely that that law will pass. Now it's unclear if Schengen/Dublin will take effect without the other agreement. Because towards the EU it's all part of one packet of agreements that should take effect together. Also the Schengen/Dublin agreement with Switzerland is not yet ratified in the EU ;)

Let's see. I'm happy so far.

EDIT: Now it's defintive. 54.6% yes to Schengen/Dublin and 58% yes for same sex partnership registration (aka "same sex marriage")

[denoir 0]

Good for Switzerland

But you know, when it comes to freedom of travel, Schengen is overrated. When going by air from one EU country to another, you still need your passport.

[Donnervogel 0]

Good for Switzerland

But you know, when it comes to freedom of travel, Schengen is overrated. When going by air from one EU country to another, you still need your passport.

Yeah well it's even more overrated for us. Since we're not part of the EU costoms union we can still make controls on the border.

Anyway. For me personally it has no effect because I have a Czech passport and that's an EU passport now. ;) I also have the Swiss passport. So I can use whichever is more profitable for me ;)

[Supah 0]

And in other news, belgiums minister of foreign afairs Karel de Gucht has sparked of a miniature diplomatic riot by saying that the dutch prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende:

- Looks like Harry Potter

- Has no charisma

- Ran a campaign for the EU constitution which was poor beyond all imagination

....

and 95% of dutch people agree with him

Quote[/b] ]Holland (a term equal to the Netherlands)

Heh you silly norwegians

[Apollo 0]

And in other news, belgiums minister of foreign afairs Karel de Gucht has sparked of a miniature diplomatic riot by saying that the dutch prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende:

- Looks like Harry Potter

- Has no charisma

- Ran a campaign for the EU constitution which was poor beyond all imagination

....

and 95% of dutch people agree with him

But not the Belgians.

De Gucht has a history of making such o so undiplomatic speeches as a minister in the foreign office.

He once said about Congo that it should be put back under Belgian administration as the country is a mess and we could do much better ,with this disregarding Belgiums history with Congo wich is frankly appaling.Apart from King Leopold terrorizing the people and killing about 10 million Congoleze ,we have also that history of resource exploitation up to day (Antwerp blood diamond center of the world!) ,or not to forget our meddling with congo's politics like with the murder on Lumumba.Belgium is for a large part responsible for the mess that is Congo ,still de Gucht the nerve to call out colonization history an example.

And while i know Balkenende is not that popular ,De Gucht's insult's don't fit a man of his position ,and many Belgiums ,atleast the Flemmish ,have very high respect fot the Dutch ,and don't want a idiot like the Gucht to tarnish that relation ,The Netherlands is in enough political turmoil after two political assassinations and many Belgians have compassion for them ,in the past the Netherlands politics was often used as a example of what Belgium should be like ,it's liberalism and economical strenght were things we admired the Dutch for and Belgium is one of those few country's that is nearly as liberal as holland atleast once was.

But some Belgian politicians have had the impression after Fortuyn and Van Hogh's murder that actually Belgian politic's is better than the Dutch politics comparing theirs with the turmoil in the Netherlands these day's ,it's almost shadenfruede for the goal of ellevating thei own politics.

[Supah 0]

it's liberalism and economical strenght were things we admired the Dutch for and Belgium is one of those few country's that is nearly as liberal as holland atleast once was.

Well I hope you can also learn to love stupidity, shallowness, narrowmindedness, populisme and xenophobia in the long run because that appears to be the trend Fortuyn set

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I hope you can also learn to love stupidity, shallowness, narrowmindedness, populisme and xenophobia in the long run because that appears to be the trend Fortuyn set

Nope ,i was speaking of the Netherlands before Fortuyn.Pitty Fortuyn was murdered as it only enfored the strenght of his words.I wonder how Germans would perceive Hitler had he been murdered somewhere after the fall of France.

Anyway ,before the murder on Fortuyn the Netherlands was quite stable political and the policy's by the previous goverments had always been extremely liberal ,and also a socially liberal people.

people from the Netherlands are still somewhat less arrogant than Belgians for ex. .try to use our roads here ,traffic agression is extreme in belgium so is speeding ,drunk driving ,driving outside road boundaries to drive around traffic jam's ,double parking ,etc etc.The differnce with the Netherlands in traffic alone is hughe ,go to the Netherlands and suddently traffic is a joy ,people would stop at green light's just to allow a person from an other direction to pass earlier ,almost everyone is highly friendluy in traffic ,helping eachother if nessecary ,lettign go people before them ,it's a whole different attitude ,while Belgium is record holder in traffic kills in europe and most of the world.

[Supah 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I hope you can also learn to love stupidity, shallowness, narrowmindedness, populisme and xenophobia in the long run because that appears to be the trend Fortuyn set

Nope ,i was speaking of the Netherlands before Fortuyn.Pitty Fortuyn was murdered as it only enfored the strenght of his words.I wonder how Germans would perceive Hitler had he been murdered somewhere after the fall of France.

Anyway ,before the murder on Fortuyn the Netherlands was quite stable political and the policy's by the previous goverments had always been extremely liberal ,and also a socially liberal people.

I think he reached a lot of people who have problems fully understanding the political system and the consequences of their actions. It is said he brought a lot of people to vote who normally never voted, I do not feel this is a good thing. Many of the fortuynist vote for parties for things those parties dont even stand for. Often I hear these people talking about political parties in the same way as they talk about soccerteams. I think Fortuyn did the dutch political system a lot of damage and it would have been far better had he never risen to fame. We now are living through the aftershocks of the mess he made. I think his "legacy" populisme and stupidity will hurt the netherlands for years to come .

Quote[/b] ]people from the Netherlands are still somewhat less arrogant than Belgians for ex. .try to use our roads here ,traffic agression is extreme in belgium so is speeding ,drunk driving ,driving outside road boundaries to drive around traffic jam's ,double parking ,etc etc.The differnce with the Netherlands in traffic alone is hughe ,go to the Netherlands and suddently traffic is a joy ,people would stop at green light's just to allow a person from an other direction to pass earlier ,almost everyone is highly friendluy in traffic ,helping eachother if nessecary ,lettign go people before them ,it's a whole different attitude ,while Belgium is record holder in traffic kills in europe and most of the world.

Heh, a tale I am often told is that in belgium untill not so recently drivers licenses werent compulsory ... how much truth is there to that?