European Politics Thread.

[GoOB 0]

Well, that is partly how politics work. Unless you are in complete majority, other parties can work against you. And the votes a partymember casts in ex. a municipal council, wont matter. They aren't "ignored", they are simply powerless because of their small numbers, something I am grateful for.

And what you fail to realize, what exactly this party represents, besides being simply critical of Swedish immigration policies. And how no other, respectable Swedish politician would want to be affiliated with SD, and their political agenda in general.

EDIT: Got some more time to forumlate this shite a bit better.

[iNeo 0]

Well, that is partly how politics work. Unless you are in complete majority, other parties can work against you.

...

And how no other, respectable Swedish politician would want to be affiliated with SD, and their general politicial views.

They don't debate with SD because they don't want to be affiliated with them? That's stupid. Are any other parties affiliated with each other because they debate now and then? No. They're affiliated with each other when they cooperate. That's not why they won't debate with SD, it's because they alienate SD so that they won't have a chance to be heard by the public, cause if they were heard, they could get more voters and then there'd be more people to ignore in the governments... And no that's not how politics should work. Since they have gotten the votes democratically, they should be listened to in the government just like everyone else. It's the will of the people. What are you, a fascist?

And let's not forget the 58 %.

Edit: oh crap I had this post open a couple of hours while doing other stuff and typing and reforumate myself a bit at a time and now I noticed you've changed your post.

Quote[/b] ]They aren't "ignored", they are simply powerless because of their small numbers

Yes they ARE ignored! The voting is based on their number of seats of course, and that's how it should be; but they - the SD politicians not their votes - are ignored aswell.

[Myll_Barka 0]

in my town, in belgium, the last years there are alot more immigrants, on itself, thats no problem, but what the problem is are the youngers that are hanging around harrasing people, which offcourse upsetss ppl

these are also 'natives' (not sure about right word) as immigrants, but offcourse its easier to see the immigrants then the natives

but on some point the VB (Vlaams Belang: former Vlaams Blok (extreme right party in belgium)) is right, coz they say immigrants, compared to natives, couz more trouble

the question is, why is that so? coz of poverty? probably, but then again, belgium has one of the best socialsecurity systems in the world

downside of the socialsecurity system : working ppl get annoyed coz most of money gets spend on the immigrants

btw, tax rates are extremly high here, and the politicians, jeez, they cant do anything right

those politicians dont go take a look in the streets, the just sit in there nice offices and make laws that SUCK

for example: should immigrants be able to vote? i dont think that in any other country, where u dont have citizenship, you can vote, well in belgium u can

this is rediculous, even tho the majority of the ppl was against it, they do pass the law in congress

and then they are upset that extreme right gets more and more votes

well if govern like that, DUH

sorry for type errors

[iNeo 0]

the VB (Vlaams Belang: former Vlaams Blok (extreme right party in belgium))

I thought they were outlawed?

It's the same situation here, lots of immigrants, high taxes, generous social security system etc, except they can't vote without citizenship, but getting a citizenship is about as hard as lifting your foot. Money is spent on giving out info (dental care info for example) in about 7 languages because you don't need to know Swedish to get a Swedish citizenship. Object and you're a racist...

[Myll_Barka 0]

all other partys work togehter to make a stand vs VB

they were convicted for racism, thats why they changed name from Vlaams Blok to Vlaams Belang

also a reason why they gain popularity

[denoir 0]

the question is, why is that so? coz of poverty? probably, but then again, belgium has one of the best socialsecurity systems in the world

It's not about poverty as much about position in society. It's about how well people integrate. If they feel that they're not part of the system, they won't give a fuck about it.

Incidentally social security might actually create more problems. It gives you the opportunity to live a fairly good life, without having to integrate. A good example is how they have less problems with this in the US, which has not much of a social security to speak of - so you have to work and communicate with the natives.

Secondly, you have to look at it objectively on how much of a problem it really is. For instance in Sweden, this year, the number of crimes involving violence, according to hospital records, is the lowest in a decade. At the same time we have the highest percentage immigrants ever. So a lot of it is myth. Also of course, as with non-immigrants, crimes are committed by a very small minority of the group.

An important factor is how society treats immigrants. Dagens Nyheter (DN), a Swedish newspaper had an interesting series of investigating reports on the subject. For instance they had a bunch of Swedish guys call companies that had advertised available job openings. First they presented themselves with an arabic name and got the reply in most cases that unfortunately they jobs had been assigned already. A few hours later, another set of guys, also Swedish called up the same companies, giving Swedish names. They presented the same qualifications (education, work experience etc) as the guys who were pretending to be immigrants. And they had no problems getting an interview. Suddenly those jobs weren't taken.

In a different investigation DN look at the average pays and saw that for many jobs immigrants were getting a significantly smaller pay than their Swedish counterparts. For instance immgirant engineers, had on average a third less pay.

Another report showed how immigrants are discriminated by the police and the legal system. They compared cases identical cases involving Swedish and non-Swedish people. They showed that immigrants are more likely to be charged, convicted and get a harsh sentence than Swedish people who commit the same crime.

Well, you get the point. There is a lot of discrimination that makes integration much more difficult.

And finally of course, we have the good old xenophobia. People are afraid of different and unknown. This is perfectly natural - human kind would have not survived for very long had our first instinct been to like the unknown. It is a very powerful natural drive. You can be instructed to ignore it, but the only real way of getting rid of it is by making the unknown known. So it's hardly surprising that in areas where there is a mix of natives and immigrants, both groups accept and respect each others. It is in areas where there are only natives where anti-immigration sentiment is high. And it is in immigrant ghettos where you have the problems with integration. People with less education and less experience of the world are also more likely to be anti-immigrant or anti-integration.

[iNeo 0]

The above problems wouldn't exist had politicians not decided to create a multi-cultural society.

Quote[/b] ]People with less education and less experience of the world are also more likely to be anti-immigrant or anti-integration.

And you base this on what? You're trying to make it look like anyone who opposes massive immigration is an idiot, that he doesn't know better and that you sit on the absolute truth.

Quote[/b] ]It is in areas where there are only natives where anti-immigration sentiment is high.

I think it's the other way around, if you live a bit off you don't see the problems so you don't care. What do you base this on?

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]People with less education and less experience of the world are also more likely to be anti-immigrant or anti-integration.

And you base this on what? You're trying to make it look like anyone who opposes massive immigration is an idiot, that he doesn't know better and that you sit on the absolute truth.

Quote[/b] ]It is in areas where there are only natives where anti-immigration sentiment is high.

It's quite simple, take a look at the leadership of anti-immigrant parties. If you take ours for instance, sverigedemokraterna or sjöbopartiet - very few have any education to speak of and most have a criminal records.

On the other hand, you'll find the strongest proponents of immigration in the academic world.

And the same goes for the immigrants. The better education they have, the more likely they are to integrate into the society. The problem is with the isolated ones, without education living in closed communities.

Quote[/b] ]

I think it's the other way around, if you live a bit off you don't see the problems so you don't care. What do you base this on?

Election results. The only places where sverigedemokraterna got any votes to speak of, don't have much immigrants. In areas where there are lots of immigrants, like Stockholm, SD got very few votes.

[iNeo 0]

I spotted a press release on the site of Dansk Folkeparti (DF), the Danish immigration critic party (one of the largest parties in Denmark).

It's about the Swedish immigration critic party Sverigedemokraterna (SD) and that DF has asked the Swedish government to give answers to the treatment of SD.

I'll translate it:

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>The government of Sweden will answer questions about assaults against Sverigedemokraterna</span>

In his capacity as a member of the Nordic Council, Dansk Folkeparti's chairman of foreign affairs (or something), Sřren Espersen, demands that the Swedish government takes up a position on a number of alleged assaults against and injustice to members of the party Sverigedemokraterna. Through the Nordic Council he demands answers on three completely tangible questions that follow herein.

- I hope, of course, that the assertions of assaults against members of SD prove to be erroneous - if not, Sweden as a nation has a democratical issue, which Denmark as a neighbour, EU member and Nordic Council member has to react to, says Sřren Espersen, who also informs that he has received a nasty list of assaults of the years 2002-2004 from the Swedish party.

- Unfortunately I don't know too much about SD's party manifesto, but as I understand it, it is a fully legal and democratic party which works according to the rules of the democracy.

- Likewise, I understand that the party has been represented in many Swedish local governments for a rather long time, where they have allegedly followed all the rules of democracy, says Sřren Espersen. That makes it so much worse if the party is being baited.

During the summer - and until the Nordic Council meeting in October - Sřren Espersen will ask the Swedish government several more questions, all of which deal with the deficit of democracy in the country.

- Thus I work on a critical inspection of the Swedish election system at the moment.

Here follows the questions that Sřren Espersen through the Nordic Council has asked the Swedish government.

[*] "Can the Swedish government confirm or deny the accuracy of each paragraph of the list herein of alleged assaults against members of Sverigedemokraterna?"

[*] "Can the Swedish government guarantee that SD from now on will be assured all democratic rights, and that undemocratic assaults and pinpricks against SD will be proceeded against?"

[*] "Can the Swedish government confirm that a teacher in Blekinge, Richard Jomshof, was fired only because he was a member of SD - and if so: does the Swedish government approve of this reason for discharge?"

- DanskFolkeparti.dk (Pressrelease in Danish: Sveriges regering skal besvare spřrgsmĺl)

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>END</span>

This took some time so I hope you read it

There was also a list of the assaults during 2002-2004 but I can't be bothered to translate it.

[iNeo 0]

More Denmark.

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>Danish queen raps radical Islam</span>

Queen Margrethe of Denmark has spoken out against radical Islam and called on Muslim immigrants in the country to improve their Danish language skills.

The queen, quoted in a new authorised biography, said people had to take the "challenge" of Islam seriously.

"We have let this issue float around for too long, because we are tolerant and rather lazy," she said.

The queen said Muslims should learn Danish properly, so they would not feel excluded from society.

Limits to tolerance

In the book Margrethe, written by journalist Annelise Bistrup, the queen is quoted as voicing disapproval of "these people for whom religion is their entire life".

Calling for opposition to radical Islam, she said: "We have to run the risk of being labelled in an unflattering way, because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance."

More than 400,000 of Denmark's 5.4 million inhabitants are immigrants, but only about 150,000 are Muslims, amounting to 3% of the population.

However, that still makes them the second-largest religious group in Denmark behind the Lutheran-Evangelical Church, of which the queen is supreme governor and to which 85% of the population belong.

The government has implemented a series of measures in recent years aimed at curbing immigration, which include making it harder for people to bring in foreign spouses or gain asylum in Denmark.

As in France, the issue of Islamic headgear for women has caused controversy.

In January, Denmark's Supreme Court ruled that a supermarket chain had the right to fire a young Muslim woman for wearing an Islamic headscarf to work.

I didn't know the Danish royal family could give political opinions, it's good that it can. The Swedish one can't and that makes it less useful.

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's quite simple, take a look at the leadership of anti-immigrant parties. If you take ours for instance, sverigedemokraterna or sjöbopartiet - very few have any education to speak of and most have a criminal records

Apart from the BNP, which is spot on in every issue apart from the race issue which they are total idiots on.

Both UKIP and Veritas are both lead by educated leaders non with criminal records (I think). I will need to check but pretty sure about it.

[kerosene 0]

What exactly do the BNP have views on, other than race?

Also, I think you need to check your facts about BNP members, this isn't disputed stuff:

http://www.gmb.org.uk/Templates/PressItems.asp?NodeID=91491

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php4?article_id=2828

Hasn't Nick Griffin been kicked out for suggesting they should let in black people and turn it into an anti-islam party?

God I loved that documanetary where they followed that junior nazi who was supposed to be their shining star around for a couple of weeks and at the end, the documentary guy told him was Jewish and he (the fascist) looked like he was gonna have a nervous breakdown, he'd been bragging about hoew he could spot Jews, etc.

The BNP are retards and anyone who can't see that..

UKIP took a beating when it was revealed the had links to the BNP, which left a bad tste in the mouths of some of their voters, Kilroy more or less finished them off.

As for Veritas, are you for real, you wanna vote for the Cult of Kilroy just because he mouths off about Gypsies and Immigrants?

[EiZei 0]

What exactly do the BNP have views on, other than race?

The usual fascism for kids stuff, strong state, tough crime policies (corporal punishment and death sentence), <insert nation name here, in this case the UK> first, increased defence spending and of course being anti-EU.

[Bordoy 0]

Kerosene i you read what I put I'm not supporting the BNP. I wouldn't even think about voting for them because of their racist issues which in my view are to far. But seeing as you asked;

IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

EUROPE - back to British independence!

LAW AND ORDER - crack down on crime!

ECONOMY - British workers first!

EDUCATION - discipline, standards, achievement!

AGRICULTURE - quality before quantity!

HEALTH - first-class healthcare for all!

TRANSPORT - time to invest!

ENVIRONMENT - a cleaner greener future!

FOREIGN AID - time to spend our money on our own people!

PENSIONERS - pensioners before asylum seekers!

NORTHERN IRELAND - an end to sectarianism!

DEFENCE - no more cuts!

FOREIGN AFFAIRS - Britain's interests first!

DEMOCRACY - letting the people decide!

That is copied and paste from BNP website if you wanna read into in then here you go POLICIES

Who said I wanted to vote for them 3 parties?

I will dispute your second link as it's a socialist website and we know the left and the right don't like each other and always take pop shots at each other.

And N Griffin in still there in charge.

[kerosene 0]

Hmm, to be honest I just don't want a record of me going to BNP site cause I'm paranoid.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/localgo....00.html

Last week the Sunday Mirror revealed that Robert Bennett, who is in charge of distributing BNP leaflets in the town, served five years for his part in the gang rape of two 17-year-olds. Fliers in Oldham are now throwing neo-Nazi language back at the BNP. Bennett was a 'sick' and 'evil' rapist of 'two young white women', one reads. 'The next time the BNP come knocking at your door just remember you might be staring into the eyes of brutal rapist Robert Bennett.'

If the BNP want to get tough on crime, they should start by chopping this blokes knackers off.

Investment in transport? The basatard tories sold it all to their rich mates, we do invest, its just that the railways are a black hole where tax money gets pumped into a privatley run monoploy.

Education in this countries f'd for cultural reasons, I think so anyway, I know this sounds bizarre, but I hold the Sun newspaper partially responsible for dumbing down the whole country, people are proud to be ignorant and say they don't know shit, this countries too shallow and materlistic at the moment, look at debt levels if you need proof on that one.

ECONOMY - British workers first!

EUROPE - back to British independence!

So, we leave the E.U and put up trade barriers? We can't compete in manufacturing or even any service industry that dosent require the seller/operator to be physically present when the transacton takes place because of technology, unless you shut the rest of the world out it's not really feasible.

FOREIGN AID - time to spend our money on our own people!

Too bad foreign aids a drop in the ocean.

NORTHERN IRELAND - an end to sectarianism!

WTF does that mean, how will that be implemented?

Plus my ex was from Brazil, I for one don't think its time to say enough to immigration.

[denoir 0]

I spotted a press release on the site of Dansk Folkeparti (DF), the Danish immigration critic party (one of the largest parties in Denmark).

(In Swedish: http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=25724&a=329282)

DF got about 12% in the elections for parliament. So it's a relatively small party.

Quote[/b] ]It's about the Swedish immigration critic party Sverigedemokraterna (SD) and that DF has asked the Swedish government to give answers to the treatment of SD.

What a load of bullshit. What does the Swedish government have to do with people beating up SD members/leaders in bar fights etc? What on earth does it have to do with democracy? They can go to the police just like everybody else.

Anyway, the populist parties around Europe are fairly similar. The Danish Dansk Folkeparti and the Swedish Sveriedemokraterna are quite similar to the British BNP, the Austrian Freedom Party, the French Front National, the Czech Republikani party etc

All are anti-immigrant, anti-EU, for tax cuts for workers, for stronger police, against foreign aid etc i.e the regular populist drivel.

In Sweden, in the 90's we had a populist party in Sweden, "Ny Demokrati", that got into parliament. And just like most populist parties, they survived for only one term.

Kerosene:

Quote[/b] ]WTF does that mean, how will that be implemented?

Hehe, that's exactly the question that populist parties have difficulty to answer. And when they get to some form of power, they generally fail to do anything as their manifestos are little more but empty slogans.

Quote[/b] ]

Plus my ex was from Brazil, I for one don't think its time to say enough to immigration.

The Swedish queen is half-Brazilian, half-German. This kind of puts chauvinists/nationalists in a funny position, as they like to be very pro-royalty. And then of course, the Bernadotte royal family is actually from France and not originally Swedish at all..

[Bordoy 0]

NORTHERN IRELAND - an end to sectarianism!

"Britain has shamefully allowed the terrorists in N.I. to come close to winning when the IRA could have been destroyed years ago. Government weakness has led to hundreds of deaths and given those same terrorists a share in government. We would end all attempts to force the people of Northern Ireland to accept foreign interference in their affairs and deal with terrorism - from whatever side - once and for all. No one with links to a terrorist organisation that refuses to lay down its arms should be allowed to enter government. We would abolish state-supported segregation in education. In the long run, we wish to end the conflict in Ireland by welcoming Eire as well as Ulster as equal partners in a federation of the nations of the British Isles. "

Quote[/b] ]Plus my ex was from Brazil, I for one don't think its time to say enough to immigration.

Just because you have a relation, or former-relation in your case, who is a foreigner it doesn't mean you need to support all types of immigration.

I think we need to get very tough on the people coming in illegally and stop them from entering the country. I still support economic migration to a certain degree. Asylum also need a crackdown on bogus applications.

[kerosene 0]

LOL, the BNP's solution to ending secretarianism is tell the Irish their part of the U.K again!

"Come on back guys, it'll be just like the good old days. That never existed"

I don't think getting tough with the IRA is the way to go, I'm 25, I'm old enough to remember constant security alerts and shops and tube/train stations being shut down every time I went into central London, plus, you can knock the process, but this is as good as its ever been, and the IRA appear to be imploding anyway, From the last few months, it looks as though they'll finish themselves off better than we ever could. When could we have destroyed them year ago anyway? I mean sure we could have destroyed them year ago if we turned N.ireland into the West Bank, but I dont want that.

Honestly, I don't think the IRA's ever been in a worse position, the longer this cease fire goes on the more difficult it'll be for them to start up again, there never going to get what they want anyway, successive governments have made that clear.

Most paramilitaries, catholic or protestant are just criminals, if they hadn't found a cause they'd be crooks, thats all, they'll fracture cause Sein Fein won't be able to discipline or control the IRA and if they try they'll just make that more obvious.

Since the ceasefire, violence agianst Northern Irleands tiny non-irish population has increased sizably, and a lot of its coming from the same people, if they'd lived in Germany in the '30s their the kind of dicks that would have voluntered for the S.S.

"We would abolish state-supported segregation in education."

O.K, I'll give 'em that one, It's been more or less proven children in mixed faith schools in N.Ireland are more tolerant of their supposed "enemies."

However, trying to ram it down peoples throats quicker than there willing to accept it might cause its own problems.

The BNP probably do a lot more harm than good to a lot of the things you actually want, if nothing else they make it harder for people to have a legitimate debate about the issues.

It's not so much that im pro any kind of unrestricted immigration, as I think the level of debate has gotten so low and sensationalist, the stuff the Tories are campaigning on now is

cheap and pandering I read their posters and feel like im having my intelligence insulted.

My main problem with what the BNP does now, aside from the racism, is the attempt to get an image of respectabilty, the person who formulated the BNP's stand on the environment for example, probably couldn't hold his own in a debate with respected people in the field. I might be wrong, but I doubt I am.

[iNeo 0]

(In Swedish: http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=25724&a=329282)

DF got about 12% in the elections for parliament. So it's a relatively small party.

It's still the 3rd largest.

Quote[/b] ]What a load of bullshit. What does the Swedish government have to do with people beating up SD members/leaders in bar fights etc? What on earth does it have to do with democracy? They can go to the police just like everybody else.

They mean the government's and established parties' treatment, how SD is ignored in the local governments it has seats in, never participates in debates with them (and media sometimes but rarely talk about them but never to them), also parliment party Vänsterpartiet encouraged people to disturb SD's meatings and tear its posters down during the 2002 elections. Etc.

Quote[/b] ]The Swedish queen is half-Brazilian, half-German. This kind of puts chauvinists/nationalists in a funny position, as they like to be very pro-royalty. And then of course, the Bernadotte royal family is actually from France and not originally Swedish at all..

Marriages between European royal families are a tradition hundreds of years old and already during the Viking age kings' daughters and sons married each other across Scandinavia.

And the current royal family does have blood-lines from Gustaf Vasa.

And you don't have to like mixture of peoples to be a royalist.

[Bordoy 0]

Yer i get what you mean Kerosene. The main slogan thing are good, like tough on crime. But the way they actually go about it is probably more then likely totally wrong.

[EiZei 0]

Yer i get what you mean Kerosene. The main slogan thing are good, like tough on crime. But the way they actually go about it is probably more then likely totally wrong.

Get tough on crime. That sure worked in the US.

[Bordoy 0]

Yer i get what you mean Kerosene. The main slogan thing are good, like tough on crime. But the way they actually go about it is probably more then likely totally wrong.

Get tough on crime. That sure worked in the US.

I mean the way they actuallu go about about it.

It worked in the US, but if they did it Stalin style and shoot everyone then that aint gonna work.

[iNeo 0]

Question: would leaving the EU mean some sort of fine or punishment?

[denoir 0]

Marriages between European royal families are a tradition hundreds of years old and already during the Viking age kings' daughters and sons married each other across Scandinavia.

Indeed, as is mixes of culture. The point I've always tried to convey to you is that there is no such thing as a static "pure" culture. This goes especially for small countries like Sweden, that simply didn't have the resources for a rich culture of their own. This is not because we were/are retarded or anything - it's simply a question of resources. When British was in fashion, we took it into our culture. The same with German, Italian, French etc Of course, the dominant source were other European countires, simply because of their proximity. But it was far from limited to that.

Something to look at in context of people today complaining about islam in Europe:

Gustav Vasa, (1496 -1560), Sweden's "founding father". Notice the patterns on his clothes? They're actually Arabic Islamic patterns used in religious context. How come? Well, actually, they're Spanish from the time when everything Spanish was all the rage in Europe. Spain was occupied by Arabs for several centuries, and lots of the Arabic culture was incorporated into the Spanish. And so you have the Swedish king wearing Islamic patterns. (Source: Herman Lindquist, Hermans Historier, Gustav Vasa)

Very few of the things we think of uniquely as ours are originally ours. The mid summer pole is German. Falukorv was thrust upon Sweden by German engineers that were helping constructing mines in Bergslagen.

Even if you go way back to the Vikings, you soon see that it was not their cultural or technical skillz that the society was based on. They were sailors and imported every single part of the culture. The mythology was imported - a blend of Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, Greek, Russian, Roman etc influences. The language was imported as well.

And of course as communications got better this increased manifold. Our current language was in general defined in the 15th, 16th and 17th century. By that I mean that it changed the most. Some 40% of our words are actually German. You can thank Vasa for that. Some 5% are Polish. You can thank Johan III and Sigismund for that. And the list goes on. Do you say "Jag har en persondator" or do you say "Jag har en PC". Right now we are under a total Anglo-American onslaught with new words popping up every day. And thanks to the communications today and globalization, no immigration is even required. We change and do so very fast.

Incidentally, I happen to believe that Europe's cultural diversity can be a very strong asset in the post-industrial world. As industry and production in general is getting automated or outsourced (like agriculture was 100 years ago), we need something unique to offer, and we have plenty of culture and history.

And the best way to safeguard that is through a multi-cultural society. The basic concept there is that the unique cultures are protected as much as they can be. The alternative is assimilation, which means that the culture is changed into a blend. While stopping all assimilation is of course impossible, and very undesirable, you can to some degree protect the cultural heritage.

You may object that at the dentist the leaflets are written in 17 different language, but that is exactly what safeguards the Swedish language. If we don't separate, we'll just blend. And today, with mass media, internet etc, it happens without any immigration.

Quote[/b] ]And the current royal family does have blood-lines from Gustaf Vasa.

Yes, very thin blood lines. Through Queen Viktoria ( 1862-1930), and was very German and never really spoke any Swedish. It's actually the only link to the Vasa family, and it is in fact quite disputed.  Karl XIV (Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte), Oskar I, Karl XV and Oskar II had no connection whatsoever to any Swedish royalty.

Quote[/b] ]And you don't have to like mixture of peoples to be a royalist.

How do you figure? The Queen is half Brazilian, half German. Isn't that very much a mix?

[denoir 0]

Question: would leaving the EU mean some sort of fine or punishment?

The rather ironic question to that is that you can't actually leave the EU today. If the new constitution gets ratified, then there's no problem to leave.

The funny thing about it is that the anti-EU parties are as well very much against the constitution, which in fact would give the only legal way out.

So unless the constitution is ratified or some other document that includes leaving the Union is ratified, leaving the Union would be a breach of international agreements on countless levels. And technically that triggers nasty sanctions.

But even if you left the EU without getting any sanctions, you would be in a nasty cold place. Exported and imported goods would be taxed to hell, various restrictions would be in place. Tariffs on various goods would be slapped on etc

Countries like Norway and Switzerland have special free-trade agreements with the EU allowing them to at least in part do free trade with the EU. So you would have to get yourself one of those deals. Mind you that they were put in place while EU was still in its infancy and very weak. It's very unlikely that they would extend that to any other country as it is today.