USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]so why should they be exposed to the same foul language elsewhere?

As only Kids of a certain age will be able to "read" the print and therefore should be able to communicate you can always point on the bad, bad women and tell them that she´s an example for a bad person

Seriously, do you want to ban all offensive T-Shirts on the road, the subway, cinemas, Disneyland or elsewhere ?

"Sir, I refuse to ride the the Supa-dupa coaster because the women in front of me wears an offensive Bambi T-Shirt and I am a militant vegetarian !"

See the flaw ?

Wherever people meet to be transported from A to B there will be no common line of taste and style. Therefore there will always be people who feel offended by this and that. Think of "Jesus loves you" T-Shirts. i bet there are some people who are highly offended by that and still I haven´t heard of people beeing expelled from a plane for such T-Shirts.

Freedom goes both ways.

[Balschoiw 0]

Not very good news, but it had to be expected :

U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq

Quote[/b] ]CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence Personnel Implicated

NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

“There is no question that U.S. interrogations have resulted in deaths,†said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. “High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable. America must stop putting its head in the sand and deal with the torture scandal that has rocked our military.â€

The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan. The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “OGA†(Other Governmental Agency) -- a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA.

According to the documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides. Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted from abusive techniques used on detainees, in some instances, by the CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence personnel. The autopsy reports list deaths by “strangulation,†“asphyxiation†and “blunt force injuries.†An overwhelming majority of the so-called “natural deaths†were attributed to “Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease.â€

While newspapers have recently reported deaths of detainees in CIA custody, today’s documents show that the problem is pervasive, involving Navy Seals and Military Intelligence too.

The records reveal the following facts:

* A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was “undetermined†although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death. Notes say he “struggled/ interrogated/ died sleeping.†Some facts relating to this case have been previously reported. (In April 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the use of “environmental manipulation†as an interrogation technique in Guantánamo Bay. In September 2003, Lt. Gen. Sanchez also authorized this technique for use in Iraq. Although Lt. Gen. Sanchez later rescinded the September 2003 techniques, he authorized “changes in environmental quality†in October 2003.)

* An Iraqi detainee (also described as a white male) died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated by “OGA.†He was standing, shackled to the top of a door frame with a gag in his mouth at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries. Notes summarizing the autopsies record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA, gagged in standing restraint.†(Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Jaleel.)

* A detainee was smothered to death during an interrogation by Military Intelligence on November 26, 2003, in Al Qaim, Iraq. A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of General Mowhoush, lists “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression†as the cause of death and cites bruises from the impact with a blunt object. New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by MI, died during interrogation.â€

* A detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, captured by Navy Seal Team number seven, died on November 4, 2003, during an interrogation by Navy Seals and “OGA.†A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of Manadel Al Jamadi, shows that the cause of his death was “blunt force injury complicated by compromised respiration.†New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA and NSWT died during interrogation.â€

* An Afghan civilian died from “multiple blunt force injuries to head, torso and extremities†on November 6, 2003, at a Forward Operating Base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Wahid.)

* A 52-year-old male Iraqi was strangled to death at the Whitehorse detainment facility on June 6, 2003, in Nasiriyah, Iraq. His autopsy also revealed bone and rib fractures, and multiple bruises on his body. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Nagm Sadoon Hatab.)

The ACLU has previously released autopsy reports for two detainees who were tortured by U.S. forces in Bagram, Afghanistan, believed to be Mullah Habibullah and an Afghan man known as Dilawar.

“These documents present irrefutable evidence that U.S. operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations,†said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU. “The public has a right to know who authorized the use of torture techniques and why these deaths have been covered up.â€

The documents were released by the Department of Defense in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The New York Civil Liberties Union is co-counsel in the case.

As part of the FOIA lawsuit brought by the ACLU, a federal judge recently ordered the Defense Department to turn over photographs and videotapes depicting the abuse of prisoners held by the United States at Abu Ghraib. That decision has been stayed until October 26. The government has not yet indicated whether it is going to appeal the court's decision.

The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Singh, Jameel Jaffer, and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

Is there still anyone left who wants to claim that these are acts of a few ?

Autopsy reports summed up

These homicides were committed by several branches of US authorities and they were known to the officials. The cover-up didn´t work. I hope we will see consequences now. Homicides are major crimes no matter if comitted in Iraq , the US or elsewhere. I hope some get to the chair for that crimes.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Not very good news, but it had to be expected :

U.S. Operatives Killed Detainees During Interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq

Quote[/b] ]CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence Personnel Implicated

NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated.  The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

“There is no question that U.S. interrogations have resulted in deaths,†said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU.  “High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable.  America must stop putting its head in the sand and deal with the torture scandal that has rocked our military.â€

The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “OGA†(Other Governmental Agency) -- a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA.

According to the documents, 21 of the 44 deaths were homicides.   Eight of the homicides appear to have resulted from abusive techniques used on detainees, in some instances, by the CIA, Navy Seals and Military Intelligence personnel.  The autopsy reports list deaths by “strangulation,†“asphyxiation†and “blunt force injuries.† An overwhelming majority of the so-called “natural deaths†were attributed to “Arteriosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease.â€

While newspapers have recently reported deaths of detainees in CIA custody, today’s documents show that the problem is pervasive, involving Navy Seals and Military Intelligence too.

The records reveal the following facts:

   * A 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood.  The exact cause of death was “undetermined†although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death.   Notes say he “struggled/ interrogated/ died sleeping.†Some facts relating to this case have been previously reported.  (In April 2003, Secretary Rumsfeld authorized the use of “environmental manipulation†as an interrogation technique in Guantánamo Bay.  In September 2003, Lt. Gen. Sanchez also authorized this technique for use in Iraq.  Although Lt. Gen. Sanchez later rescinded the September 2003 techniques, he authorized “changes in environmental quality†in October 2003.)

   * An Iraqi detainee (also described as a white male) died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated by “OGA.† He was standing, shackled to the top of a door frame with a gag in his mouth at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries.  Notes summarizing the autopsies record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA, gagged in standing restraint.†(Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Jaleel.)

   * A detainee was smothered to death during an interrogation by Military Intelligence on November 26, 2003, in Al Qaim, Iraq.  A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of General Mowhoush, lists “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression†as the cause of death and cites bruises from the impact with a blunt object.  New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by MI, died during interrogation.â€

   * A detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, captured by Navy Seal Team number seven, died on November 4, 2003, during an interrogation by Navy Seals and “OGA.† A previously released autopsy report, that appears to be of Manadel Al Jamadi, shows that the cause of his death was “blunt force injury complicated by compromised respiration.† New documents specifically record the circumstances of death as “Q by OGA and NSWT died during interrogation.â€

   * An Afghan civilian died from “multiple blunt force injuries to head, torso and extremities†on November 6, 2003, at a Forward Operating Base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan.  (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Abdul Wahid.)

   * A 52-year-old male Iraqi was strangled to death at the Whitehorse detainment facility on June 6, 2003, in Nasiriyah, Iraq.  His autopsy also revealed bone and rib fractures, and multiple bruises on his body. (Facts in the autopsy report appear to match the previously reported case of Nagm Sadoon Hatab.)

The ACLU has previously released autopsy reports for two detainees who were tortured by U.S. forces in Bagram, Afghanistan, believed to be Mullah Habibullah and an Afghan man known as Dilawar.

“These documents present irrefutable evidence that U.S. operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations,†said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU.  “The public has a right to know who authorized the use of torture techniques and why these deaths have been covered up.â€

The documents were released by the Department of Defense in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The New York Civil Liberties Union is co-counsel in the case.

As part of the FOIA lawsuit brought by the ACLU, a federal judge recently ordered the Defense Department to turn over photographs and videotapes depicting the abuse of prisoners held by the United States at Abu Ghraib.  That decision has been stayed until October 26. The government has not yet indicated whether it is going to appeal the court's decision.

The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Singh, Jameel Jaffer, and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

Is there still anyone left who wants to claim that these are acts of a few ?

Autopsy reports summed up

These homicides were committed by several branches of US authorities and they were known to the officials. The cover-up didn´t work. I hope we will see consequences now. Homicides are major crimes no matter if comitted in Iraq , the US or elsewhere. I hope some get to the chair for that crimes.

So you believe in the death penalty? Or more specifically, "Death by Electrocution"? Don't worry, only kidding...

Yet another "well-known secret" is out then. The question is, a la Alice in Wonderland, "how deep does the rabbit hole go?" Would I be right in assuming that for absolute direct action to be taken to punish those who perpetrated torture, the Governments of Iraq and Afghanistan would have to lodge some kind of complaint. I take it the ACLU can only take things so far...

[Ironsight 1]

These homicides were committed by several branches of US authorities and they were known to the officials. The cover-up didn´t work. I hope we will see consequences now. Homicides are major crimes no matter if comitted in Iraq , the US or elsewhere. I hope some get to the chair for that crimes.

Not suprised stuff like this happens. War is nasty and I am sure that this stuff is not only commited just by US troops but also by other countries and other wars. Look for example at how a lot of UN peacekeepers are misbehaving in Congo and East Timor on a smaller scale since there are only a small amount of troops stationed there.

There's a lot more media attention for misbehaving in Iraq because there's already a lot of resistance against the US presence in Iraq (both in the world and at home) and the media likes to stir that up off course (and nobody cares about Africa and they aren't Muslims ).

That's my view on it

[Balschoiw 0]

This is about the treatment of prisoners.

Not about casualties of war.

If you want to compare the US to a mumbo-jumbo african tribal force, go ahead but last I checked they acted like the inventor of democracy and human rights.

Remember how upset they got when talking about torture and Saddam...

According to their logic Bush has to be bombed out of office now. Tomorrow he may be a danger to the whole planet.

What´s on the list ? Ah Syria it is now. Too bad that there are no more forces for another war...right now...

[Ironsight 1]

This is about the treatment of prisoners.

Not about casualties of war.

If you want to compare the US to a mumbo-jumbo african tribal force, go ahead but last I checked they acted like the inventor of democracy and human rights.

I am not talking about "a mumbo-jumbo african tribal force" I am talking about UN peacekeepers. Torture of prisoners, looting, rape etc. all done by UN peacekeepers or have you missed the news lately

Just some article I dug up:

Quote[/b] ]UN Peacekeepers Criticized

By Declan Walsh Nicola Byrne

The Scotsman

December 22, 2002

An Irish soldier serving as a United Nations peacekeeper in Eritrea has been caught making pornographic videos of local women and is now serving a jail sentence in Ireland, it was revealed last night.

The UN has launched an investigation into the scandal which has again plunged the organisation’s peacekeeping duties into controversy. In the wake of the highly damaging revelation, the Eritrean government has condemned the activities of the Irish defence force and questioned its continued presence in the war-scarred state in the Horn of Africa.

Yesterday a government spokesman said: "These people call themselves peacekeepers, when in fact all they want is a long holiday and a chance to fool around with our women. They did not respect our country, our culture or our people."

The soldier in question returned to Ireland last month and yesterday the Irish army said he would be dismissed. An army spokesman said: "As soon as his commanding officer became aware of his behaviour he was charged with conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline."

The private has already been sentenced to 16 days’ detention by an army court, and is still serving the sentence. The statement added: "He is likely to be dismissed from the force." His videos were filmed last March.

Their main ‘star’, a 22-year-old Eritrean woman believed to be a prostitute, is in custody facing obscenity charges in her home country. The tapes are understood to have been discovered when the soldier, a man in his forties and a native of the west of Ireland, showed them to friends.

The woman is believed to have worked at a brothel which opened outside the Irish ‘green’ camp in the Eritrean capital, Asmara, shortly after the Irish peacekeepers’ arrival last December. She befriended the soldier at the centre of the scandal and became his girlfriend, she told police. The woman named the man and said he was a captain, although the Irish army has denied that this is the man’s rank.

In an interview from her prison cell, she said the soldier had told her he was making the video for "remembrance" and would marry her and bring her to Ireland, where he said he owned a hotel. "He was telling me what to do in the films in many different ways," said the woman.

After filming, the soldier would take the woman and her friends swimming at the Intercontinental Hotel, which she considered a "great treat" as it is normally the preserve of foreigners. According to Eritrean authorities, the videos consisted of "disgusting sexual acts".

Several other women who are alleged to be prostitutes in the capital have also been arrested since the scandal emerged. Some hotels and night clubs which were popular with peacekeepers, foreigners and prostitutes have also been closed.

The multinational peacekeeping force in Ethiopia and Eritrea (UNMEE) was established two years ago after a ceasefire in the two-year border war between the two countries. This is the Irish army’s first time in Africa since the 1960s when it served in the Congo. The defence forces pride themselves on their peacekeeping role, which has included stints in the Lebanon and Cyprus.

In a statement, UNMEE said it considered the allegations concerning the videos very serious, and that it was conducting an investigation. "The mission has zero tolerance towards such acts, and will do its utmost to quickly and thoroughly establish the facts," it said.

"The sexual or psychological exploitation of locals by UN staff or their representatives, will never be tolerated." However, a report commissioned by the UN itself noted this year that prostitution has soared since peace was declared in Eritrea and the UN peacekeepers arrived there.

Over the past two years, Italian, Danish and Slovak peacekeepers have all been expelled in separate incidents for having sex with minors. Irish troops were issued with orders to respect local sensitivities and to abide by a strict code of conduct. A senior source within the UN in Asmara said the Irish soldier’s behaviour had caused deep embarrassment.

It is the latest in a catalogue of scandals over the years, which have seen UN peacekeepers involved in murder and rape. The UN source said: "People have been told not to talk about it or discuss it. It’s a very sensitive issue. But of course everybody is talking about it."

A third of adults in Eritrea are HIV positive and on their arrival in Africa, the UN forces are shown explicit videos about the effects of HIV and Aids. Peacekeepers are issued with male and female condoms and warned off visiting the numerous brothels which have mushroomed in the capital. However, with little for the troops to do in the city, the outgoing commander of the Irish camp, Lieutenant Commandant David Prendergast admitted that boredom was one of the biggest problems facing his unit. But he rejected the claim by the Eritrean government that the Irish base was a holiday camp.

"It is not that by any means," he said. "It is a major task in the management of personnel and it is difficult for the soldiers because they are away from home." Built in the art deco style by Italian colonists in the 1930s, Asmara looks more like a suburb of a European town than an African city.

Although it is poor and struggling to recover from the war, the clean streets are paved with smooth tarmac, and there is little crime. The story of the videos has consequently made front page news. Last week’s edition of the Eritrean Profile newspaper, published by the government’s ministry of information, also points the finger at other peacekeepers in the city and says it has evidence that they are engaged in activities similar to those of the Irish soldier currently in jail.

With friends like these…

United Nations peacekeeping troops have been involved in a catalogue of crimes and scandals across the globe. During the UN peacekeeping mission to Somalia, it was claimed Canadian, Belgian and Italian soldiers were involved in torture and murder.

An inquiry by the Canadian government of a young Somali man in 1993, found that he had been murdered by its troops and that a senior officer had lied in an attempt to cover up the atrocity. Two soldiers were jailed.

In Belgium, newspapers published photographs of two soldiers holding a Somali boy over a fire. Three paratroopers were prosecuted, but were acquitted by a military tribunal. An Italian magazine published photographs showing soldiers from the country’s elite paratroop regiment apparently torturing a naked Somali with electrodes and sexually abusing a Somali woman. Two generals who had commanded the Italian force in Somalia resigned.

In January 2000 the United Nations were sued for the first time in its history for alleged complicity in the crime of genocide which drove hundreds of thousands Rwandan Tutsis from their homes.Two Rwandan women accused the UN, which was meant to be defending their families, of handing them over to their killers or running away.

The families of these women were slaughtered during the 1994 genocide in which 800,000, mostly Tutsi people, were slaughtered by Hutus.

In Bosnia, more than 20 peacekeepers were ejected from the mission for theft and corruption. Nearly four dozen others were sent home after allegedly abusing mental patients at a hospital. Canadian peacekeepers were accused of rape, beatings and sexual abuse of a teenage handicapped girl.

Source

[Balschoiw 0]

Do you think any of their governments approved or endorsed what they did ? I guess not.

Do you think the US have approved and endorsed the methods of torture that are very identical in Afghanistan and Iraq ?

I think yes.

While you show some handpicked samples that are indeed acts of a few, we have a completely different set of things here. It´s about people who died because they were tortured to death. Not single incidents, but a lot of them. The methology of torture is the same, be it in Iraq or Afghanistan and Rumsfeld personally nicked the methods through. The casualties are known up to top-level and noone had bead feeling about it. I´ve quoted some eye-witness accounts in the Iraq thread. You may want to read it.

It´s a big difference if you have incidents or a scheme. The amount of incidents in US led prisons in warzones points to a scheme , not to single cases.

Why do you think they had to sue the pentagon over the reports ?

And seriously mate, quoting news from 2002 isn´t that up-to-date eh ?

Edit:

Quote[/b] ]and nobody cares about Africa and they aren't Muslims

More than 60 percent of africa is Muslim , so I don´t get that point.

Map of the muslim world

[Ironsight 1]

Do you think any of their governments approved or endorsed what they did ? I guess not.

Do you think the US have approved and endorsed the methods of torture that are very identical in Afghanistan and Iraq ?

I think yes.

Do you really think the US government would? I do believe that orders were given to put mental preasure on extremists to "break their spirit" but I don't think preasure by abuse was part of the Pentagon's plan.

Quote[/b] ]While you show some handpicked samples that are indeed acts of a few, we have a completely different set of things here. It´s about people who died because they were tortured to death. Not single incidents, but a lot of them. The methology of torture is the same, be it in Iraq or Afghanistan and Rumsfeld personally nicked the methods through. The casualties are known up to top-level and noone had bead feeling about it. I´ve quoted some eye-witness accounts in the Iraq thread. You may want to read it.

It´s a big difference if you have incidents or a scheme. The amount of incidents in US led prisons in warzones points to a scheme , not to single cases.

Why do you think they had to sue the pentagon over the reports ?

Like I said before, I don't believe that the whole torture thing is "planned" by the Pentagon. Think it's more an intrepetation by commanders in the field and can you really blame them for doing it? Like you see it happens a lot in UN missions and I am not pointing on systematic abuse but more like "crossing the line" and "misinterpretation" of orders. Soldiers get stressed in a warzone and can do crazy things (lower yourself to the level of the enemy) but can you blame them for that? They are humans after all.

I just don't believe that all soldiers can perfectly control themselves in a warzone. It's just part of war I guess but I am not the one with field experience.

Quote[/b] ]And seriously mate, quoting news from 2002 isn´t that up-to-date eh ?

Like I said it is just an article I "dug up". Can get you more recent examples like I said the exact same problem was in the news a few months ago.

Quote[/b] ]Edit:

Quote[/b] ]and nobody cares about Africa and they aren't Muslims

More than 60 percent of africa is Muslim , so I don´t get that point.

Map of the muslim world

The countries I was pointing on (Rwanda, Congo Iritrea) aren't muslim counties. Allthough some of them are not mentioned in the article I can dig up an article where there widespread abuse is mentioned anythime you like. Like I said this was in the news a few months ago but the UN covered it up and media don't write bad things about the UN they prefer to stir things up in the Islam-Western world relations.

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]U.N. troops held over sex crimes

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 Posted: 1:48 AM EST (0648 GMT)

(CNN) -- The Moroccan government has announced that six of its soldiers serving as peacekeepers in the Democratic Republic of Congo have been arrested on charges of sexually abusing Congolese civilians.

Among the six are the head of the Moroccan contingent in Congo and his deputy.

U.N. officials in Congo reacted positively to the announcement, saying the jailing of the suspects shows that the Moroccan authorities "attach as much importance to eradicating sexual abuse within U.N. peacekeeping missions as does the U.N."

But the U.N. mission in Congo also expressed hope the Moroccan decision to publicize the arrests should encourage other contributing countries to do the same.

U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard added that contributing nations are "clearly responsible" for the discipline of their soldiers engaged in U.N. peacekeeping missions, as well as for the judicial action resulting from their misconduct.

Eckhard said the role of the United Nations is to lay down "good clear guidelines."

A series of measures already has been taken in past weeks by the international organization.

Last week U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan announced a no-fraternization policy that forbids contact between U.N. peacekeepers and locals.

The areas around U.N. camps have also been cleared and police patrols increased.

However, human rights organizations have complained that the United Nations ignored the question of children who were born from sexual relations between peacekeepers and locals in food-for-sex exchanges.

The United Nations can have a court order a paternity test for any civilian personnel and deduct child support payments from the staffer salary.

However, for any military staff, national laws of their country apply.

In any case, the United Nations does not have the power to prosecute its military or civilian personnel suspected of sexual abuse.

The suspected offenders have to be sent home to face trial in their own countries.

There were numerous of incidents like these. It was widespread but wasn't ordered by military commanders. I think most cases in Iraq and Afghanistan are the exact same situation.

But like I said it's in the media's interest to create a rift between the Islam and Western word. Conflicts like that sell.

[whisper 0]

As the awefull french behavior during Algeria war has shown us, torturing etc... can indeed be endorsed by at least some govt officials. It may well be the case here. In fact, everything is very very similar (torturing approved in case you're seeking terrorists) in both cases.

[EiZei 0]

Not to mention the tactics (exploiting the fear of dogs, hooding, threats, sleep deprivation, stress positions) have all been justified in certain memos released under FOIA. While the stuff that has happened usually exceeds the limits specified in those memoes I think there still is a disturbing pattern emerging out of all this.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you really think the US government would?

For sure, or do you believe the same methods of torture are applied in different countries as a result of mouth - to - mouth propaganda. Google Rumsfelds comments on that an you know there is a common line.

Quote[/b] ]Like I said before, I don't believe that the whole torture thing is "planned" by the Pentagon.

Well it´s not a matter of "believe". Check the facts.

Quote[/b] ]Soldiers get stressed in a warzone and can do crazy things (lower yourself to the level of the enemy) but can you blame them for that?

There is no doubt about the stress, but systematic torture is something different than an outburst of emotions. That´s why you have ROE´s and a command structure.

Quote[/b] ] Like I said this was in the news a few months ago but the UN covered it up and media don't write bad things about the UN they prefer to stir things up in the Islam-Western world relations.

Link ? Proof ?

Quote[/b] ]There were numerous of incidents like these.

You don´t get the difference, do you ?

It´s something different that rapes happen than systematically torturing people.

I can dig up cases of rape among every nation´s army. Same goes for looting (insert stolen artefacts transported to the US, or whatever you like here), homicide, blackmailing or whatsoever.

But this doesn´t make it a scheme.

A scheme for example is, that ruandian troops, infected with HIV were told to do mass-rapes. They were told to do that by their government or the government willingly accepted that behaviour.

The same goes for US forces torturing. They were given a washy explanation of what is wrong or right and the government willingly accepted their doings for "the higher goal".

As I said, google Rumsfelds remarks on torture and read the eye-witness accounts I posted in the Iraq thread.

You´re trying to connect things that are not to be connected.

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]Do you really think the US government would?

For sure, or do you believe the same methods of torture are applied in different countries as a result of mouth - to - mouth propaganda. Google Rumsfelds comments on that an you know there is a common line.

Well if you believe in that I can't stop you from doing that.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ] Like I said this was in the news a few months ago but the UN covered it up and media don't write bad things about the UN they prefer to stir things up in the Islam-Western world relations.

Link ? Proof ?

About the abuse and torture by UN peacekeepers: Look for an article there are many floating around.

About the media creating a rift between Islamic and Western world: I only have a strong suspision especially if you look how stuff like the photo's from Abu Graib was enlarged to enormous proportions when stuff like that happens all over the world. As for example with UN peacekeeping in Congo or East Timor.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]There were numerous of incidents like these.

You don´t get the difference, do you ?

It´s something different that rapes happen than systematically torturing people.

I can dig up cases of rape among every nation´s army. Same goes for looting (insert stolen artefacts transported to the US, or whatever you like here), homicide, blackmailing or whatsoever.

But this doesn´t make it a scheme.

A scheme for example is, that ruandian troops, infected with HIV were told to do mass-rapes. They were told to do that by their government or the government willingly accepted that behaviour.

The same goes for US forces torturing. They were given a washy explanation of what is wrong or right and the government willingly accepted their doings for "the higher goal".

As I said, google Rumsfelds remarks on torture and read the eye-witness accounts I posted in the Iraq thread.

You´re trying to connect things that are not to be connected.

I am just saying that misbehavements aren't uncommon on the battlefield. I just see a big enlargement by the media which makes relations between Muslim and Western world even worse.

And no, I don't believe in the systematic torture of people but again it's totally how you interpretate the word torture. Because I find the things EiZei mentioned:

Quote[/b] ](exploiting the fear of dogs, hooding, threats, sleep deprivation, stress positions)

not really a form of torture. More a form of metal preasure. And as EiZei I am afraid that things like these might get worse. But for now I absolutely see no systematic torture more something like orders that are misinterpreted and frustration which emerges in these cases (just like what happens with the UN peacekeepers, you see the connection now?)

It's always the question how far you can go with interogations.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ](exploiting the fear of dogs, hooding, threats, sleep deprivation, stress positions)

not really a form of torture. More a form of metal preasure. And as EiZei I am afraid that things like these might get worse. But for now I absolutely see no systematic torture more something like orders that are misinterpreted and frustration which emerges in these cases (just like what happens with the UN peacekeepers, you see the connection now?)

It's always the question how far you can go with interogations.

Try sleeping less than couple of hours a day crammed up in some dirty closet for a week and then come tell me it's not torture. Torture is mental pressure.

The difference between the UN and the US abuses is that the UN abuses clearly serve nothing else than the perpetrator's own sadistic desires while the US abuses seem to be less about personal enjoyment and information gathering with least visible methods. If some US soldiers would have raped some random civilian women I would not suspect the higher-ups for a second, but when the same school-of-the-americas/CIA-style torture that is designed to be effective and discrete rather than provide some kind of depraved satisfaction starts emerging at different places.. well..

[Balschoiw 0]

Ironsight, you throw in the word UN peacekeepers but you seem to forget that the UN peacekeepers are no national force like the US forces are. They are formed from armies of over 100 nations. There is no "identity" of UN forces, so pls stop trying to sell it as such.

Quote[/b] ]Well if you believe in that I can't stop you from doing that.

I don´t "believe", I just add the info we have, info collected by several respected and authentic organizations, like AI, the ICRC and many many others. Even US official investigations found disturbing things, or did you forget the Tabuga report ?

Quote[/b] ]The following are excerpts from an investigation by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba (which was ordered by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Joint Task Force-7. (Complete text of the Taguba report is posted at the MSNBC site.)

In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses

a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on

detainees;

b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

(T)he intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. Writing “I am a Rapest†(sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.

The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.â€

On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees†(6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law.

As we know have learned inmates have been tortured to death as you can read in the authopsy reports I posted on the last page.

It´s no matter of believe, it´s a matter of facts.

Keep in mind that they were suspects and in no way sentenced prisoners. Basically they were still innocent when they were killed during interrogations.

Quote[/b] ]I only have a strong suspision especially if you look how stuff like the photo's from Abu Graib was enlarged to enormous proportions when stuff like that happens all over the world.

Well, if it happens in China, North korea or a country with a dictator in place it doesn´t surprise me. If it happens in the US, it does. I guess that´s just natural. What would you say if germany applies torture to suspects again ? Would it be ok, as it happens elsewhere also ?

You can´t compare fish with flesh. Especially when the "flesh" says:

Quote[/b] ]"The U.S. is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the U.S. and the community of law abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating and prosecuting all acts of torture."

— George W. Bush, U.N. Torture Victims Recognition Day, June 26, 2003

This really sounds like a joke right now.

Keeping in mind the above quote this read a bit ridiculous, doesn´t it ?

U.S. fails to block U.N. anti-torture vote

Quote[/b] ]UNITED NATIONS — The United States failed to block a U.N. vote Wednesday on a plan to strengthen a treaty on torture, and was widely criticized by allies for trying to do so.

The United States argued that the measure, known as a protocol, could pave the way for international and independent visits to U.S. prisons and to terror suspects being held by the U.S. military at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba.

The objective of the protocol is "to establish a system of regular visits undertaken by independent and national bodies to places where people are deprived of their liberty, in order to prevent torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment."

The protocol to the treaty passed late Wednesday by a vote of 35-8 with 10 abstentions in the U.N. Economic and Social Council. The United States abstained.

A U.S. proposal to reopen 10 years of negotiations on the document was voted down 29-15 with the rest abstaining.

The protocol now moves to the General Assembly where it would need to be approved by a majority of the 190 member states. Then, it will require 20 ratifications before it can go into force.

However, if the United States chooses not to sign the document it will not be bound by it.

Denmark, which read a statement on behalf of the European Union, accused the United States of intentionally stalling in order to kill the proposal. Costa Rica, which sponsored the plan, "urged all delegations to vote against," the American request to reopen negotiations.

Human rights advocates and diplomats argued that the protocol was essential to enforce the international convention on torture passed 13 years ago and since ratified by about 130 countries, including the United States. Countries are supposed to enforce the convention on their own, but rights groups argue that that isn't working everywhere.

People were tortured or ill-treated by authorities in 111 countries last year, according to an Amnesty International report.

Technically, the protocol seeks visits to prisons as a way to help enforce the anti-torture convention, which the United States has ratified.

But the United States said elements of the plan were incompatible with the U.S. constitution. Privately, U.S. diplomats said allowing outside observers into state prisons would infringe on states' rights.

"The United States greatly regrets being put in the position of abstaining," U.S. Ambassador Sichan Siv said after the debate.

The protocol was widely supported among Western European and Latin American countries. The United States was supported by some countries accused by Amnesty International of torture, including Nigeria and Iran. Other U.S. support came from Japan, China, Cuba, Cyprus, India, Pakistan and Egypt.

The text was accepted in an April vote by the Human Rights Commission in Geneva. The United States didn't participate in that vote because it lost its seat on the commission last year.

Activists had feared that if the United States succeeded in reopening the negotiations, it would mean a "death sentence" for the protocol.

Joanna Weschler of Human Rights Watch, said: "This is actually a great vote because the U.S. tried and failed."

It´s your actions you will be judged by, not your words.

Quote[/b] ]not really a form of torture.

Surprisingly as we know today a lot of people died as a result of that "not really a form of torture".

Get a grip on reality.

[Ironsight 1]

Ironsight, you throw in the word UN peacekeepers but you seem to forget that the UN peacekeepers are no national force like the US forces are. They are formed from armies of over 100 nations. There is no "identity" of UN forces, so pls stop trying to sell it as such.

It's not that I am critisising the UN peacekeeping force. I heard lots of good things about South African peacekeepers in Congo. Would you prefer it if I name each country where these people came from?

It was just an example that for most soldiers (I believe it is hard for every soldier) it's hard to do deal with your emotions and the things you experience over there. Abuse and torture have their orgin in such experience's (I guess).

Quote[/b] ]As we know have learned inmates have been tortured to death as you can read in the authopsy reports I posted on the last page.

It´s no matter of believe, it´s a matter of facts.

Keep in mind that they were suspects and in no way sentenced prisoners. Basically they were still innocent when they were killed during interrogations.

But the report didn't mention systematic torture ordered from higher hand did it? Wasn't that the point all allong?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I only have a strong suspision especially if you look how stuff like the photo's from Abu Graib was enlarged to enormous proportions when stuff like that happens all over the world.

Well, if it happens in China, North korea or a country with a dictator in place it doesn´t surprise me. If it happens in the US, it does. I guess that´s just natural. What would you say if germany applies torture to suspects again ? Would it be ok, as it happens elsewhere also ?

I wasn't talking about the US, more Europe. How much have we heard about the burning of Taliban bodies and how little about the US, German and British help after the earthquake in Pakistan?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]not really a form of torture.

Surprisingly as we know today a lot of people died as a result of that "not really a form of torture".

Get a grip on reality.

As far as I know no normal human being can die of exploiting fear of dogs, hooding, threats, sleep deprivation, stress positions etc.

Quote[/b] ]Try sleeping less than couple of hours a day crammed up in some dirty closet for a week and then come tell me it's not torture. Torture is mental pressure.

Like I said, how far can you go with mental pressure?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]As far as I know no normal human being can die of exploiting fear of dogs, hooding, threats, sleep deprivation, stress positions etc.

Of course you can die of such. Conduct a self-test and don´t sleep for 5 days while hooded and beaten.

You will be dead.

Your reason of death will be:

Quote[/b] ]Arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease

Quote[/b] ]But the report didn't mention systematic torture ordered from higher hand did it? Wasn't that the point all allong?

Hello ?

The documents published are autopsy reports in original PDF files.

I assume you can do the 1+1 on your own, can´t you ?

Quote[/b] ]I wasn't talking about the US, more Europe.

So there are cases of torture in europe that result in a reasonable amount of deaths ?

Pls tell me where you got lost.

Quote[/b] ]and how little about the US, German and British help after the earthquake in Pakistan?

There is quite a good coverage about those ops here. We have it in the news, we have it in hourlong reports and news specials. The same way the Tsunami help in Aceh region was covered.

I don´t know about your country but here we have quite a good coverage of that operations. Anyway, where is the point in this related to the subject ?

Quote[/b] ]Like I said, how far can you go with mental pressure?

check

Quote[/b] ]Arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease

QED

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]I wasn't talking about the US, more Europe.

So there are cases of torture in europe that result in a reasonable amount of deaths ?

Pls tell me where you got lost.

I was talking media-wise

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]and how little about the US, German and British help after the earthquake in Pakistan?

There is quite a good coverage about those ops here. We have it in the news, we have it in hourlong reports and news specials. The same way the Tsunami help in Aceh region was covered.

I don´t know about your country but here we have quite a good coverage of that operations. Anyway, where is the point in this related to the subject ?

Media only reports negative news and exagerates everything US soldiers do. At least over here.

Really good idea with all those Muslim hardliners over here and all those extremising youngsters. Next time they walk into a mosque in a big city they get recruited for the Jihad. This already happened a few times ago. There are already 5 known cases of Dutch's Muslim youth's who got arrested/wounded/killed in Pakistan and Chechnya.

But I agree it was a bit offtopic

[Supah 0]

Media only reports negative news and exagerates everything US soldiers do. At least over here.

Dont watch SBS6 and dont read the Telegraaf then. The dutch public broadcasting news asks the hard questions of both sides I find. The reason the US representatives get asked hard questions is because there is a reason too. The US government is openly condoning torture as a way of getting intelligence. No matter who is doing it and who is being tortured torture is wrong and the information gained from it is more often then not false. There is no excuse about it.

[Ironsight 1]

Media only reports negative news and exagerates everything US soldiers do. At least over here.

Dont watch SBS6 and dont read the Telegraaf then. The dutch public broadcasting news asks the hard questions of both sides I find.

RTL is the most objective IMO. Always get a story from both sides. Public broadcasting is not very objective but many might disagree with me

BTW: I'd rather die then being seen with a Telegraaf in my hands

[Supah 0]

Media only reports negative news and exagerates everything US soldiers do. At least over here.

Dont watch SBS6 and dont read the Telegraaf then. The dutch public broadcasting news asks the hard questions of both sides I find.

RTL is the most objective IMO. Always get a story from both sides. Public broadcasting is not very objective but many might disagree with me

BTW: I'd rather die then being seen with a Telegraaf in my hands

RTL? Objective? :| Oh well atleast its not foxnews

[harley 3 1185 0]

The only reason FoxNews is what it is is because it panders to those of a suitably Rightist opinion in the U.S. (Free Trade, Vote Republican, Decidedly Pro-Gun...). That there is such a sizable portion of such opinion in the U.S. that it has it's own "popular" news channel is rather damning, don't you think? I'd like to think that the blame could be laid at the feet of that "&%(Å^$Å*&^^"@~" Dirtbag Rupert Murdoch, but it can't be so, as his news concern in Britain are Generally Moderate and, unlike FoxNews, "Fair and Balanced" - The Times newspaper has to be ranked as possibly the most objective English-Speaking Broadsheet in the world. If ever Murdoch or FoxNews is mentioned, there is always a comment in defense which seems to imply "Hey, it's not our fault he owns us", which is good.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Sorry for posting this funny! but it is damn funny to watch. I wish the germans would capable to make this sort of political satire, unfortunately we suck at it!

(if you cant open it, then download it)

[der bastler 0]

RTL is the most objective IMO.

Wait a minute, we talk about Radiotélévision de Luxembourg, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTL_Television

And in this case what exactly does objective mean? Just asking...

[Supah 0]

RTL is the most objective IMO.

Wait a minute, we talk about Radiotélévision de Luxembourg, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTL_Television

And in this case what exactly does objective mean? Just asking...

RTL has various channels in the netherlands too, they pump out crap to the intellectually challenged. When 20.000 died in Bam (Iran) due to some earthquake their main story was some horse in a ditch near a nowhere town in south holland. When the second plane flew in the WTC their aviation expert (a woman) asked "Are you sure this isnt an accident?" This is FoxNews Lite. These people dont make newsshows, they have opinion shows disguised as news. Objectivity in my eyes is presenting the facts and asking the hard questions and leaving the reader/viewer to make up his mind. Not steer them a certain way with your comments.

[Ironsight 1]

RTL is the most objective IMO.

Wait a minute, we talk about Radiotélévision de Luxembourg, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTL_Television

And in this case what exactly does objective mean? Just asking...

RTL has various channels in the netherlands too, they pump out crap to the intellectually challenged. When 20.000 died in Bam (Iran) due to some earthquake their main story was some horse in a ditch near a nowhere town in south holland.

So, the second day after the earthquake in Pakistan I only heard on the NOS 10PM news that "help is on it's way" it was one of the last subjects. Kinda the same thing don't you think?

Quote[/b] ]This is FoxNews Lite.

Are you serious?

Quote[/b] ]These people dont make newsshows, they have opinion shows disguised as news. Objectivity in my eyes is presenting the facts and asking the hard questions and leaving the reader/viewer to make up his mind. Not steer them a certain way with your comments.

When was the last time you heard an opinion from people of the RTL news?

Personally I see more of a description of shows like Netwerk, Nova Politiek, BVD etc. I've never seen such thing in the RTL news

Appearently I don't see what you see