USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[SFWanabe 0]

what do you mean by "To be honest, that statement is scary"

He's comparing you to the SS officers who claimed they were just following orders, and therefor saw them selves as not being responsible for their actions.

And by the way, I think Bush used the term "crusade" before Bin Laden.

That's alittle warped. Dont you think?

[EiZei 0]

what do you mean by "To be honest, that statement is scary"

He's comparing you to the SS officers who claimed they were just following orders, and therefor saw them selves as not being responsible for their actions.

Not quite, mainly pointing out the likeness of the "leader principle" (fuhrerprinzip) and his attitude when it comes to criticizing his leader.

[Grim_Fandango 0]

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http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif[/img])]

what do you mean by "To be honest, that statement is scary"

He's comparing you to the SS officers who claimed they were just following orders, and therefor saw them selves as not being responsible for their actions.

And by the way, I think Bush used the term "crusade" before Bin Laden.

That's alittle warped. Dont you think?

I don't know, I have no way of knowing how fanatic the man is when he says he has to obey orders no matter who's in charge.

I think the term holy führerprinzip coined it quite well actually. In the end you're responsible for your own actions, the fact that you might choose to follow idiotic orders only makes you even more of an idiot for not seeing them for what they are.

If that is indeed the extent to which your loyalty goes. Like I said I have no way of knowing, but absolutist statements like that are a bit disturbing to me.

And yes, I did put that provocatively, because that kind of statements provoke images of the aforementioned regime.

Quote[/b] ]Not quite, mainly pointing out the likeness of the "leader principle" (fuhrerprinzip) and his attitude when it comes to criticizing his leader.

Of course, I apologise if you felt I was putting words in your mouth. It was my own assessment.

Not questioning your leader in my oppinion makes you a bad democratic citizen. You should question your leaders in everything they do. It doesn't mean you have to disagree, but the idea of oppressing debate based on national or political loyalty is Nazi/Stalinist thinking in it's finest.

[SFWanabe 0]

All I know is that I wont follow an order if I beileve it's unlawful,and if that that means I go before a court marshal then so be it. (No I'm not in the military..yet.)

[Grim_Fandango 0]

All I know is that I wont follow an order if I beileve it's unlawful,and if that that means I go before a court marshal then so be it. (No I'm not in the military..yet.)

Good, if only everybody could live up to that kind of integrity.

[SFWanabe 0]

All I know is that I wont follow an order if I beileve it's unlawful,and if that that means I go before a court marshal then so be it. (No I'm not in the military..yet.)

Good, if only everybody could live up to that kind of integrity.

I beileve most of the US soldiers have. Just because some weekend warriors torture a few poor souls doesnt mean that all the US troops are bad.

[miles teg 1]

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Quote[/b] ]

I'm not sure why were not in Syria, Sec Of State (never could spell her name) has been hastling syria but its likely we'll just give them the "evil eye". Saudi Araibia is a country that is VERY touchy. if you recall Osama Bin Laden made himself know for what reason... oh yes WE SET FOOT ON SAUDI SOIL. unless were able to take on the muslim world without stepping on any european toes, then were good to go. Wich is imposible since Saudi Arabia hold most of the worlds oil. so we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot for losing a big oil contributor.

What???  So we now are doing what Osama Bin Laden says we should do?  We are now that afraid of him?  You tell me how overthrowing the Saudi Regime and controlling their oil would cause us to lose the world's biggest oil reserves???

Do you think that we are not already pissing off the entire Islamic world by invading Iraq?  

Did you know that in the last polls done in major Islamic population centers around the world showed that most Muslims believe that America is attacking Islam?

The fact of the matter is that the oil industry of the United States and the Saudi government both have extremely close ties. Likewise so does our defense industry.  Overthrowing the Saudi regime would disrupt those contracts and hurt our industries.  Nevermind that they don't have true democracy in Saudi Arabia and that many Islamic schools still openly teach very radical fundamentalist interpretations of the Qu'ran and continue to pour millions of millions of dollars into fundamentalist Islamic schools around the world.   Nevermind that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia.  

Quote[/b] ]

You have to be a good polotician for everything to make scense. believe me there has been times were politics confused me. but thats politics for you.

WHAT?  That is NONSENSE!   YOU DO NOT have to be a politician to understand politics.  What you have to be is EDUCATED!!!!   The more educated you are in whats going on in our cities, states, country and around the world the harder it is for politicians to TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU.  Politicians WORK FOR US!!!  We DO NOT work for them!  

That is why the Republican Party CONTINUES to make HUGE cuts in education at the Federal, State, and Local levels.  They DO NOT want an educated majority, but rather an educated upperclass elite and an uneducated working class.  More and more, they do not need a middle class to perform skilled labor as more and more of those jobs are going overseas to cheap skilled labor markets in China, India and other rapidly developing countries.  US corporations make the same amount of money (actually much more money) regardless which is why our stock market is way over inflated and a false indicator of overall economic prosperity in the United States.  Average incomes continue to fall, and traditional middle class job markets likewise are rapidly disappearing as we shift rapidly into a low income service sector economy with little or no health care benefits and little to no worker retirement benetfits.  Couple that with moves by the Republicans to privatise Social Security (which will destroy it as uneducated people don't know beans about investing money) and we are facing the possibility of the United States becoming a form of corporate communist state but rather than being controlled by a communist party, it is controlled by corporate interests and NOT the interests of the population. That's not to say that all Republicans think this way. I am mainly talking about the neocons who believe in capitalism like its a religion. The worst of these are the ones that try to use "freedom and democracy" to describe capitalism when in fact the two concepts can often contradict each other. Capitalism like any other ideology can be horribly abused. When used wisely however capitalism can do alot to improve the lives of people. But it must always be balanced with the interests of the public in mine and not just with MAKING MO' MONEY in mind.

But the average American does not see this and short of a win in the next elections by democrats, I don't think anything will happen to stop this trend short of an economic collapse.

Hell actually even a win by the democrats won't insure this trend from ending as  President Bill Clinton was doing many

of the same Pro-Corporation, anti-consumer policies that the Bush administration is doing now, only they were not doing it as blatantly and nowhere near the level that the Bush Administration is doing it at.

It is the duty of the American public to stay informed and politically active rather then to allow for our constitutional system of checks and balances to be destroyed and a totalitarian government to emerge in the United States. But that is currently exactly what is happening.  

This IS NOT A DAMNED FOOTBALL GAME!  Its not about whether Conservatives or Liberals take control of the US.  Its about preserving BALANCE.  Hell I would NEVER want a ULTRA LIBERAL government in power here in the US.  Then we'd end up with a whole host of new problems.  What we need is balance between Corporate, public, and private interests... but more to the point, a government that does its utmost to uphold the constitution which I think is an absolutely marvelous document.

I don't know the Airforce oath is, but when I joined the Army I took an oath to defend the CONSTITUTION against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.  This is an oath that the United States Army must take very very seriously.  Yes they do have to obey the orders of the President, but the President does not supercede the constitution of the United States.  Also I'm not in the Army anymore so I now have my constitutional freedom to speak out against the policies of my government in any way that I see fit to do as long as I am obeying the law.  

Quote[/b] ]

so we can see through solid objects now? garages, hangers, storage buildings. how do you think we found out what was below the roofs. also, where underground systems lead (ie bunkers). we had to have someone go there and check stuff out. We knew there was something there but we had to have someone go in and find out what. as i sai the bunker systems was one of the first things struck durring "shock and awe"

Actually using thermal cameras, we can tell a hell of alot about whats going on inside some buildings.  

However we HAD something even better then spy drones, planes, and sattelites.   We had U.N. Weapons inspectors that were doing a damn fine job and that inspected most of the sites that Collin Powell showed pictures of in front of the U.N. and who had reported to the CIA exactly what the objects in most of the pictures were.

Even if he had WMD's, big freak'n deal.  SO does Iran, North Korea, Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc... etc...  

Stuff like nerve gas is not difficult to make.  Neither is stuff like Mustard gas.  While our forces could survive an attack by that stuff, our civilian populations could not.  Ditto for certain types of biological agents that are rumored to have been developed in Iran, Syria, and Libya.  Libya is now our oil buddy but has anyone heard of Libya going through new WMD inspections?

Also North Korea has actually directly threated to nuke us and use WMD's on us and our forces in South Korea and Japan.  Saddam never threatened us with that.  He also never attacked us with WMD's in the first Gulf War even though he could have.

But the fact of the matter is that he didn't have anything.

We invaded a country based on FEAR and HATRED and REVENGE for something Saddam and Iraqis had nothing to do with (9/11).   THE ONLY Al-Qaeda terrorist camp we found in Iraq was the Al-Ansar camp in Northern Iraq which we knew was there alraedy and which was in Kurdish territory up near Iran.  Moreover, this group was an opponent of the Saddam regime.  Now however they are a huge organization spread all over central and northern Iraq.

Did Saddam support terrorists?   Yup he sure did.  He donated huge sums of money to Palistinian terrorist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad.  However those groups ARE NOT Al-Qaeda.  Furthermore, Saudi Arabia is probably the biggest contributor to the Palistinian terrorist groups.  They even had telethons in the past to raise money for them.

Quote[/b] ]

i'm just going to act like you didn't say that, you've been in this topic for a while to see what i said. i'm not going to waste time repeating myself.

Look

back to June 08 2005,13:17

I just looked and all you said was that Iraq is a battlefield in the war on terror.  

Can you please explain to me where all these terrorists were before we invaded Iraq???  

If the United Nations invaded America to remove President Bush what would you do?  

What would you do if liberals of this country supported the United Nations?  

Would you fight both the United Nations occupiers and the liberal traitors who supported the occupiers?

What if the U.N. occupiers and these liberals said that all traces of Christianity and mentioning of "God" had to be removed from all US and state laws?  

What if the U.N. occupiers decided to make Catholics and atheists the majority in our new government and those of Protestant faiths were told by Christian leaders to not support the Catholic government because they were not true Christians and they were collaborating with the U.N. occupiers?

Are you a Christian?  Would you believe that your Christian faith was under attack?  Would you fight for your religion?

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Grim_Fandango 0]

Even if he had WMD's, big freak'n deal.  SO does Iran, North Korea, Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc... etc...  

Don't forget our ol' buddies Israel, who are currently in violation with a lot more conventions and resolutions than for example Iran is, including human rights, atomic, biological and chemical weapons regulations.

However there is no political will to go to war with Israel. Why not? Because the fact is that we don't go to war to rid the world of barbarians or help people, we go to war to rid the world of barbarians that aren't on our side.

It's a hypocritical, cynical and very unfair world, but sadly that's just how it works.

But that does of course make it a lot sicker when our leaders try to pass their wars off as acts of humanity, if nothing else, there's nothing less humane than war, and I'm fairly sure our leaders know that as well.

In the case of Iraq, if we really wanted to help the people we could've started by removing the sanctions that did nothing but starve the common iraqi, the same common iraqi that had been left to be slaughtered by Saddam twice by the international community (first time in the incited revolt of 1979 and second time in the incited revolt following the Gulf war in the early 90's). If you want to help people, feed them, don't drop bombs on them.

But that's not what international politics is about.

Kill Iran... Leave Saudi Arabia alone

Kill Iraq... Leave Israel alone

Kill Syria... Leave Jordan alone

Saudia Arabia, Israel and Jordan are OUR barbarians, so we just don't care what they do.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Don't forget our ol' buddies Israel

That has not been confirmed so lets only name countries who have confirmed they're nuclear weapons position.

[miles teg 1]

Yeah but Israel is home to the chosen people and is the land promised to the chosen people by God!  So they don't count.  We're either with them or against God if we go against them...at least if you are Christian.  If you not...well then you're gonna be on the wrong side of the pearly gates when Armeggeddon comes and Jesus comes to bring home his flock of faithful....and the rest of ya'all burn in hell!  Muauhahahahahaha!!!  

Its true.  Read the Bible.  It says so.   You can't argue with the Bible.  Its God's word and nothing outweights God's word.

well...unless it wasn't exactly what God said...

Sure would be nice if God spoke right around now... we could use a little help down here.   But maybe he'll speak when "el Hijo de Dios" returns in the 2nd coming.  

Yeah... then he'll have some choice words for you gay loving, baby killing, God hating, hippy liberal tree worshiping sons of Satan!  

Muahahahahaha!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

Yeah but Israel is home to the chosen people and is the land promised to the chosen people by God! So they don't count. We're either with them or against God if we go against them...at least if you are Christian. If you not...well then you're gonna be on the wrong side of the pearly gates when Armeggeddon comes and Jesus comes to bring home his flock of faithful....and the rest of ya'all burn in hell! Muauhahahahahaha!!!

Its true. Read the Bible. It says so. You can't argue with the Bible. Its God's word and nothing outweights God's word.

well...unless it wasn't exactly what God said...

Sure would be nice if God spoke right around now... we could use a little help down here. But maybe he'll speak when his "el Hijo de Dios" returns in the 2nd coming.

Yeah... then he'll have some choice words for you gay loving, baby killing, God hating, liberal tree worshiping sons of Satan!

Muahahahahaha!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

It counts if Israel tries to start another war with the surrounding arab states.

[miles teg 1]

Not if its God's will for them to do so and they are just taking back what God originally gave to them.

Don't argue with God's word SF.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

Not if its God's will for them to do so and they are just taking back what God originally gave to them.

Don't argue with God's word SF.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Oh yea it's God's will for the puney nation of Israel to start yet another war. I dont know how the Jews interpret God's word but I highly doubt God would tell Israel to start a war. That would make Israel no better than Al Qeada,The Taliban or any other looney group.

[miles teg 1]

Or... like America maybe???

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Grim_Fandango 0]

Quote[/b] ]That has not been confirmed so lets only name countries who have confirmed they're nuclear weapons position

How unamerican (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the obvious pun in that statement).

You're implying that the state of Israel kidnapped and imprisoned one of their own citizens from another sovereign state (the UK) for revealing a nuclear armament project that didn't exist? They put a man in solitary confinement for thousands of times the period that's minimum to be considered torture in accordance with the UN's convention on the matter?

Sure, they don't go out and say "Hell yea we're building 'em by the truckloads, nukes o' plenty in ol' judea, come n gets us arab scum! We've gone nuclear!", but you'd have to be naive, well, actually, you'd have to lie to yourself not to see the obvious admission Israel practicly made when they kidnapped the guy from the UK, put him in jail and threw away the key.

Thankfully he was released last year after enduring the torture that his own country put him through for revealing the nuclear project that doesn't exist.

Quote[/b] ]well then you're gonna be on the wrong side of the pearly gates when Armeggeddon comes and Jesus comes to bring home his flock of faithful....and the rest of ya'all burn in hell!  Muauhahahahahaha!!!

Ha! I don't know if it's your idea of heaven spending the rest of eternity up on a cloud playing the harp surrounded by mormons (and the Bush family) but those people really know how to ruin a good time.

I am not christian, I'm Asetro, and just for the record the Christians aren't invited to Asgaard or Valhalla either

We offer an eternity of mead, wild boar and all the wet n wild valkyries you can.. Well.. I'm gonna resist going into that, but trust that it's a hell of a good time

For entry you'll need a well-grown beard, long hair, and it really helps dying valiantly in battle as well.

*Addition*

Oh, and you aren't guilty of anything and you don't owe the Gods anything, all you have to do is show up for Ragnarok and have a good fight against the jaetter (or giants) and we'll start all over again when almost everybody's dead

(by the way the good guys win, Odin says so, and he's the smartest of all)

[SFWanabe 0]

Or... like America maybe???

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Iraq was a stupid call on Bush's part I'll say that but invading Afganstan was the right thing to do.

[SFWanabe 0]

Quote[/b] ]That has not been confirmed so lets only name countries who have confirmed they're nuclear weapons position

How unamerican (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the obvious pun in that statement).

You're implying that the state of Israel kidnapped and imprisoned one of their own citizens from another sovereign state (the UK) for revealing a nuclear armament project that didn't exist? They put a man in solitary confinement for thousands of times the period that's minimum to be considered torture in accordance with the UN's convention on the matter?

Sure, they don't go out and say "Hell yea we're building 'em by the truckloads, nukes o' plenty in ol' judea, come n gets us arab scum! We've gone nuclear!", but you'd have to be naive, well, actually, you'd have to lie to yourself not to see the obvious admission Israel practicly made when they kidnapped the guy from the UK, put him in jail and threw away the key.

Thankfully he was released last year after enduring the torture that his own country put him through for revealing the nuclear project that doesn't exist.

Quote[/b] ]well then you're gonna be on the wrong side of the pearly gates when Armeggeddon comes and Jesus comes to bring home his flock of faithful....and the rest of ya'all burn in hell! Muauhahahahahaha!!!

Ha! I don't know if it's your idea of heaven spending the rest of eternity up on a cloud playing the harp surrounded by mormons (and the Bush family) but those people really know how to ruin a good time.

I am not christian, I'm Asetro, and just for the record the Christians aren't invited to Asgaard or Valhalla either

We offer an eternity of mead, wild boar and all the wet n wild valkyries you can.. Well.. I'm gonna resist going into that, but trust that it's a hell of a good time

For entry you'll need a well-grown beard, long hair, and it really helps dying valiantly in battle as well.

*Addition*

Oh, and you aren't guilty of anything and you don't owe the Gods anything, all you have to do is show up for Ragnarok and have a good fight against the jaetter (or giants) and we'll start all over again when almost everybody's dead

(by the way the good guys win, Odin says so, and he's the smartest of all)

Unless they have come out in the public and said they have nuke lets not assume they have.

[Grim_Fandango 0]

Or... like America maybe???

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Iraq was a stupid call on Bush's part I'll say that but invading Afganstan was the right thing to do.

I agree, but the US should stop trying to make it sound like the saved the afghans from anything. They just removed one barbaric islamic mob of murderers and thugs and replaced it with their own.

I wouldn't be surprised if the socalled Northern Alliance (which is now broken down into the initial groups that formed the alliance against the Taliban) ended up turning against the US as well. After all, it's not like the different parties and groups that made up the alliance agreed with anything the US stands for.

9/11 was a justifiable reason to dismantle the terror training camps in Afghanistan, but honestly, cut the crap about saving anyone but our own asses, it's not happening.

And when is the US gonna do something about the terror training camps in Pakistan?

[Grim_Fandango 0]

Quote[/b] ]That has not been confirmed so lets only name countries who have confirmed they're nuclear weapons position

How unamerican (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist the obvious pun in that statement).

You're implying that the state of Israel kidnapped and imprisoned one of their own citizens from another sovereign state (the UK) for revealing a nuclear armament project that didn't exist? They put a man in solitary confinement for thousands of times the period that's minimum to be considered torture in accordance with the UN's convention on the matter?

Sure, they don't go out and say "Hell yea we're building 'em by the truckloads, nukes o' plenty in ol' judea, come n gets us arab scum! We've gone nuclear!", but you'd have to be naive, well, actually, you'd have to lie to yourself not to see the obvious admission Israel practicly made when they kidnapped the guy from the UK, put him in jail and threw away the key.

Thankfully he was released last year after enduring the torture that his own country put him through for revealing the nuclear project that doesn't exist.

Quote[/b] ]well then you're gonna be on the wrong side of the pearly gates when Armeggeddon comes and Jesus comes to bring home his flock of faithful....and the rest of ya'all burn in hell!  Muauhahahahahaha!!!

Ha! I don't know if it's your idea of heaven spending the rest of eternity up on a cloud playing the harp surrounded by mormons (and the Bush family) but those people really know how to ruin a good time.

I am not christian, I'm Asetro, and just for the record the Christians aren't invited to Asgaard or Valhalla either

We offer an eternity of mead, wild boar and all the wet n wild valkyries you can.. Well.. I'm gonna resist going into that, but trust that it's a hell of a good time

For entry you'll need a well-grown beard, long hair, and it really helps dying valiantly in battle as well.

*Addition*

Oh, and you aren't guilty of anything and you don't owe the Gods anything, all you have to do is show up for Ragnarok and have a good fight against the jaetter (or giants) and we'll start all over again when almost everybody's dead

(by the way the good guys win, Odin says so, and he's the smartest of all)

Unless they have come out in the public and said they have nuke lets not assume they have.

Lets hear your explanation for torturing the guy that claimed Israel had nuclear weapons.

Honestly, how can you close your eyes to an obvious fact like that?

Israel is refusing to let the IAEA into their country, which their counterparts in Iran have done a long time ago. You don't find this the least suspicious?

If Israel indeed does not have nuclear ambitions, there would be NO RISK what so ever in letting the nuclear bloodhounds into their country, because they of course would come up with nothing.

Let's start looking at the indisputable facts that all point to Israel having nuclear weapons, or at least a serious effort to produce them, and stop assuming that diplomatic admissions really mean a thing.

Most countries don't declare war on eachother anymore, does that mean the attacks aren't happening? Diplomacy is one very different thing from reality, and isn't to be taken literally in any respect.

As a UN diplomat and artist once scribbled down on his notepad;

Diplomacy; Deep, Low, Messy.

[SFWanabe 0]

They may very well have nukes,but until they come out and say it lets not assume they have. It will only mislead others.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ] And when is the US gonna do something about the terror training camps in Pakistan?

Or the camps in Syria.  And about assuming that Israel doesn't have any... well then I guess we should assume that Iran doesn't have any nukes either.   Hey Iran denies having any so what the hell.  Lets put our heads in the sand.

But in all honesty, I'm a pragmatist.  I think Israel having nukes is the only thing keeping the Arab world from invading them again. Egypt is rapidly approaching the capability to do so.  I think its wise for the Israelies to keep their nuke program totally secret as they don't want  an arms race in the Middle East.  

But I guess its too late now with Iran developing them and signs that Egypt and Saudi Arabia both have nuclear weapons development programs.  Egypt already has nuclear reactors by the way...but they tend not to be scrutinized nearly as much as the Middle Countries that America doesn't like.

All in all I'm not against pressuring Iran to cut the crap and halt their program.  But we they also have REAL reasons for fearing America because hey, we did name them part of the Axis of Evil..oh I'm sorry...Bush named them that.  So they're scared shitless of us thinking that they're gonna be next.  So you can bet your bootstrings that they're working dilligently to build nukes.  Hey it worked for North Korea to keep America at bay and blackmail us, so no reason why it won't work for them.

If there was a country that we really should have invaded, it probably was Iran.   There is a large number of Iranians that wanted us to invade.  But we can't now without starting up a draft as we simply don't have enough soldiers to occupy Iran unless we pull out of Iraq.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SFWanabe 0]

I doubt the USA will invade Iran considering the reforms going on in the country.

[miles teg 1]

Reforms??? What Reforms?? In case you haven't checked it looks like Hardliners will likely win the Iranian election and if they do, it is widely expected that they will roll back most of the reforms made over the past few years and return to a much more anti-Western and especially anti-American political stance. Also it should be said, that what reforms they made were pretty mediocre and some were only on paper (like the ban on torture). I was born in Iran and I have Iranian friends so I know what still goes on there.

Also reforms don't mean jack when you have even moderate Iranian leaders talking about destroying Israel.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Grim_Fandango 0]

They may very well have nukes,but until they come out and say it lets not assume they have. It will only mislead others.

That's all well and good, but do you have any other answers to the obvious inconsistancies with a nuclearfree nation that would explain why Israel acts the way it does?

If so, I'd really like to know;

Why was Mordechai Vanunu kindapped from Britain by Mossad, and imprisoned for 16 years in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, after publishing photographs and information about Israels nuclear programme to the english newspaper The Sunday Times. (Link)

Why Israel won't let the IAEA into the country like Iran has done?

As far as I see it, both those choices, kidnapping Vanunu and refusing access for the IAEA in their work to declare the middle-east a nuclear-free zone, pose a great risk to Israel internationally. I mean conducting intelligence operations overtly in another sovereign country? Wars have been started for far far less. And if anything Israel would only gain international recognition for showing commitment to the IAEAs project of a nuclear-free middle-east.

Useful facts;

Israel has had clear nuclear ambitions since the establishment of the Hemet Gimmel in 1949, created to conduct geological surveys with the purpose of mining uranium under the military.

Estimates of Israels nuclear arsenal by experts is widely thought to be between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads based on the weapons-grade materal that the country has/would have been able to produce.

No matter what your oppinion might be, you cannot deny that Israel has a lot more surcumstansial evidence pointing against it than for example Iran. The difference is just that we don't like Iran.

[Grim_Fandango 0]

2-->

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif[/img]2)]Reforms??? What Reforms?? In case you haven't checked it looks like Hardliners will likely win the Iranian election and if they do, it is widely expected that they will roll back most of the reforms made over the past few years and return to a much more anti-Western and especially anti-American political stance.   Also it should be said, that what reforms they made were pretty mediocre and some were only on paper (like the ban on torture).  I was born in Iran and I have Iranian friends so I know what still goes on there.

Also reforms don't mean jack when you have even moderate Iranian leaders talking about destroying Israel.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Still, realisticly speaking, rome wasn't built in a day.

Compared to other overtly hardline nations like Syria, Iran was really on the right track to reforms before Bush dismissed the progress by calling the country evil per definition, thus removing any motivation for Iran to continue that progress as it would be seen as appeasement of the western devils.

I don't want to insinuate anything, but I too have friends that are kids of iranian refugees, and their hatred for that entire country goes beyond my comprehension as a citizen in a safe and free country, so I think that even if Iran was extending allbeit a small hand towards diplomatic change, they'd still be swearing and cursing at the leaders. You don't seem the biased type though.

I definetely don't think the priests of Iran are pleasant, but you have to admit that it's progress when students can demonstrate and make their voices heard without being shot down as it happened under the Shah shortly before the uprising that lead to the whole mess in that country.

I think the Iranian people are slowly but surely gaining a voice in Iran, and I totally agree that their elections still are a sham, and that the eventual elected government won't have much to say anyway, but in my oppinion those still are babysteps, and in my positive mind it will eventually lead to bigger steps and bigger movements against totalitarianism in Iran.

It couldn't be stopped in Europe and I think the spirit of the Iranian people, like the spirit of the French or the early Americans, will overcome oppression, it's just a matter of time.