Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[CrackerJack 0]

not if he want´s to turn left and right, he is a hunter he probably knows what he is doing

[mr_rOk 0]

I too don't think he's police*...and if he is is the guy next to him must be a senior inspector (j/k)...

*at least on CNN it says that he's a civvy

[ran 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you give in to their demands that will most likely only lead to more terrorism...

You haven´t read properly....pretend to give in and kill them afterwards. That was my solution. Not fair...but taking kids as hostages isn´t fair also.

And for the same scenario in a european country. It wouldnt look much different I guess. Noone is prepared for such an amount of hostages but the approach would have been very different. 1st security authorities would have tried to locate the terrorrists with various technical equipment, than negotiation would start to bind some of the forces at a controlablke spot. If negotiations failed (real negotiations, not russian style negotiations that are infact no negotiations as they had to follow Putin´s zero tolerance ideology) there would be use of deadly ranged force on terrorists, means identified targets would be eliminated simultaniously. Meanwhile several team would enter the compund from different spots that cover most of the influence areas terrorists have and take them out in a sweep. 30 terrorists are not that much...the problem is to separate them from hostages prior. By using heatcams and mini cams plus audio feeds from within the building by using laser window mic´s you should be able to locate most of them and pinpoint their positions...even if the are moving. I don´t see such gear with the russian forces, neither at the theatre situation nor at the school. They had no complete scenario picture.

3 days is a long time and I´m wondering why they were not able to localize their targets properly.

A situation with that many hostages is always bull, so I guess they´d try to separate the hostages, or better say a large part of them from the terrorists by giving in to their demands and and take them out when the risk for hostages isn´t that big. So yes, you technically give in...but only to eliminate them later on. I don´t see that as an incentive for terrorists to start further atacks as they would get all killed...and yes I would let them rott for three days in the streets...just like they did so everyone can watch those bastards.

I´m still shocked by the amount of killed ones. I´m not shocked by the situation for the hostages. It is rather clear that 1200 people need to be controlled. So has the environment the hostages are in. Of course this results in a terrible situation for the hostages. But it´s logistically not possible for terrorists to provide them with water, food or other things. Even the windows had to be shut (that´s why most of the kids were nearly naked, because the terrorists were afraid of gas, or sneaking-in forces.

Quote[/b] ]Just because they won't show it, you say it doesnt exist.....well they AREN'T going to show it because of the nature of its content. What is so hard to understand about that?

I don´t believe that story. Sorry.

There were a lot of interviews with hostages but none mentioned such at all.

30 terrorists ain't too much ?

erm ...

Negociators aren't worth shit against fanatics, you may obtain the liberation of a few hostages in exchange of several services and goods, but in the end you'll allways have to step up and act.

On the technical aspect of such an operation, I agree, but if ever the captors decided to attack a western country I doubt they'd rush in without any preparation.

How would our reconnaissance and intel specialists plant all the nifty toys you described ? planting a dozen of these little gadget around a single relatively small building is reasonnably easy and safe, but the size of a compound such as a school is something a bit different. Not forgetting that the terrorists could use their own batches of gadgets to mess up the mics such as loud white noise generators disposed in strategical spot. Then to prevent any curious eye to see what's going on, they can just block the potential passage ways used by the cameras and optical fiber gizmos. Now ... the heatcams ... it's not what i'd call a common piece of gear ... and then it could simply be defeated by adjusting the heaters right at the human body temperature (even more efficient as more air passage ways have been closed and the siege may last quite some time) and with the ammount of personns held in the compound, heat sensors would be useless.

And over three days, the hostiles have all their time to move around and set up different guard points and strongholds which they could change regularly.

What tells you fanatics always want to make it out alive with a few hostages ? There might be a few individuals whose mind may change in such situations causing them to forget a little bit about their ideology and want to make it out alive, but these types are rare and the brainwashing is generally well done.

3 days is a long time, I admit, but since when were sieges short ?

If all the technological and human meens have been suppressed, there's no way things can be shorter.

1993 Neuilly hostage crisis

It took us two days with a lone gunman and 24 hostages (7 at the time of the final takedown). Just imagine a second how things would go in a situation similar to Beslan one (and yes, even if it was in 1993, we had were relatively well informed of what was going on with the captor).

They had no complete picture of the scenario, but would have we ?

Even if the terrorists happened to make it out as you say, I doubt having a shootout in a densely populated area is a good thing. Then again, occidental forces are trained to face a single vehicle with a few hostage takers and a couple of hostages in very particular conditions, not a couple of fucking buses filled with 30 terrorists and the same ammount of hostages.

The only result this could have is some bad publicity for the country in which it happens ... Å• la Munich 1972 you know, and then again, nothing tels us that in the meanwhile the explosives inside the school wouldn't have been remote-triggered, and this is not counting the booby traps and other possible landmines set up by the terrorists not only for the troops going in but also for the over-enthusiast young hostages fleeing.

[ran 0]

Yer i seen that they said he was just trying to watch the cobat from afar. his finger ain't on the trigger.

Trigger safety, it's not because I don't have my finger on the trigger of my gun that I'm not going to use it.

But yeah, it looks like he's just observating the scene.

A caption I read for this picture sad they were apart of the police forces.

Anyway if i was going to use it i wouldn't sit like that, but is that a good position to be in?

That's why I said he was most certainly just observing, but considering the caliber of the weapon, I guess that even if the position isn't a model of stability, he could fire his weapon reatively accurately.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Negociators aren't worth shit against fanatics, you may obtain the liberation of a few hostages in exchange of several services and goods, but in the end you'll allways have to step up and act.

True. But keeping in mind that the terrorists had demands it wouldn´t have been to bad to take these demands and approach the terrorists. Even if they only took 3 or 4 of the prisoners they demanded to the school in their sight it could have deescalated the situation and gave them the feeling of being taken serious.

Quote[/b] ]How would our reconnaissance and intel specialists plant all the nifty toys you described ?

You don´t have to go there on your own. Most of the surveilance tools are prepared for distant use, means they can be attached by air pressure devices that make no sound.

The laser mics work on distances so you don´t have to get close to the compound at all. All you need is a reflecting window. White noise generators, as far as I know only disturb regular acoustic devices but not laser mic´s.

Quote[/b] ] Then to prevent any curious eye to see what's going on, they can just block the potential passage ways used by the cameras and optical fiber gizmos.

Right. Attaching visual surveilance is one of the most tricky jobs to do. The night would have been a good option here. Those devices are extremely small and can be inserted at window frames or chimneys and in case the school had a ventilation system or some sub-level service access you´d had a go. Also water tubes would have been an option here.

That´s why the blueprints of public buildings are available for security forces here in germany.

Quote[/b] ]Now ... the heatcams ... it's not what i'd call a common piece of gear ...

It is. Thermal imaging is done here by using either the Mira or portable devices. Mira has an indepth sightlevel and can be adjusted for minor temperature differences displayed on screen. So even if they heat the building you will still be able to localize people pretty accurate as no body will take the exterior heat throughout the body. That´s what is called a "Heat -scheme". Mira operators are drilled in identifying targets with it and they are pretty good with it. The only thing that can ruin the scan is the cooling device that has a pretty unique sound...something like a fridge...that could be identified by a terrorist if he had ever heard it before. Comparable to NV googles sound, that can be heard if you know how it sounds...this high tone you know. A civillian will not be worried if he hears it, but anyone who has operated NV devices knows how they sound.

Quote[/b] ]And over three days, the hostiles have all their time to move around and set up different guard points and strongholds which they could change regularly.

Taking into account that 30 terrorists had to be coordinated over the 3 days I guess a certain scheme of repetition,patrolways, guarding positions, manning strongholds, etc could be visible. Whenever people are under stress, they tend to switch to routines. That´s what surveilance technicians have to track. The repeating of certain things can separate terrorists from hostages and in this case the hostages didn´t move at all. They were not allowed to leave their positions for any reason. So every moving person would have a been a confirmed target. Now taking my scheme theory into account it would have been not too hard to draw a certain picture of terrorist routines.

Again, the mass of 30 makes the perfect deal here. If it were 10 or 15 it would be harder to track them and foresee their actions but if you have that amount of participating terrorists they need to act according to a plan that has been set up prior the attack or once they are located in the compound. I assume they already had a plan on how to execute this mission prior their attack. All indications go to that direction if you check where they planted devices and held the hostages. So there had been a plan. If they were following this plan over the first 2 days, a scheme would have been visible. It´s highly unlikely that they did improvise with the regular procedures. And that´s why 30 people are their weak point.

Quote[/b] ]What tells you fanatics always want to make it out alive with a few hostages ?

Nothing, but you have think that way. Otherwise you can just let everything happen an only be a bystander and noone who tries to help the hostages. There´s always a worst case scenario, but it´s the job of special untis to avoid exactly this.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt having a shootout in a densely populated area is a good thing.

That´s why you have to evacuate the area in rings as we were taught. Spot - 300m´s - 1 km - 5 km. Depending on scenario. As you said already 3 days are a long time. At least the inner radius of 300 - 1 km should have been sealed off and locked.Think of external helpers who use mobile phones to keepo the terrorists updated on external developements. I know there are people living there, but I guess a lot of them could have been evacuated or at least told to stay at home and lock their doors. The inner circel has to be cleared of all non-oparatives. That´s rule number 1 in hostage situations.

And judging the presence of civillians at the direct spot of the hostage scene, the russian security forces have failed badly here.

Quote[/b] ]Å• la Munich 1972

Germany and noone else was prepared for such an attack at that time. Germany drew it´s consequences and formed the GSG9 and the SEK´s on longterm. Both have proven to be very efficient. Remember the hijacking of the "Landshut" wich was liberated by GSG9 in an extrodinary professional way.

I agree, every situation is a new situation and a situation where kids are involved is especially bad. But there are ways to deal with it. At least you can try to approach it in a serious way. Putin already said that they have made big errors during this operation and he takes responsibility wich means shit but shows that there would have been different approaches that maybe wouldn´t have resulted in so many dead...338 up to now.

Quote[/b] ]Putin, a former KGB spy who came to power four years ago promising to stamp out separatism, said the security forces needed to rethink their approach to tackling such emergencies.

Questions have persisted about the storming of the school and how the gunmen managed to transport huge quantities of explosives and ammunition into the school.

Soslan Bidoyev, 23, was shocked by his brother's account of events at the school when it was seized last Wednesday.

"He told us that when the hostages were brought in, the gunmen made the adults pry open the gymnasium floor. They took out supplies of weapons from underneath the floor," he said.

Such accounts strengthened the view that the gunmen were well prepared and had local help, and fueled the anger of residents who accused Putin of making only a token visit to the town and failing in his duty to protect them.

Valery Andreyev, local head of the FSB security service, was quoted by Moscow radio station Ekho Moskvy as saying the militants may have received help from local police, possibly because they were coerced.

There are ways to prevent such incidents for everyone. Keep your eyes open, report uncommon things you see. They prepared this attack on a major scale and it´s really hard to believe that noone has noticed anything prior the attack.

Now I guess it´s time to think of those innocent ones who had to die, because of all that. I am no believer, but if I was I would pray for them.

Edit: Long post, many typos...

[ran 0]

someone did his homework ;)

well, most of my comments were based on my short experience in the GIPN which isn't a HRT unit per se and isn't issued with top of the top gear and then again, my field of speciality isn't of a great use in the initial assault phase.

As I said on a few occasions already, it's Russia, thus, not a model of the genre.

But i'm worried about what would happen in a similar situation in Europe.

We have the technology and the training, but the terrorists could easily overcome them like they have done in the past.

By the way, by passage ways, I meant exactly what you described, not only enterances and such. I doubt it would be to hard to close or block the things you said in the strategical places .

[sim 0]

I think Russia needs to sort out it's armed forces to stop pointless death happening to innocent kids like this again!

They need better training and a hell of a lot more organisation!

Poor families, my heart goes out to them

[Placebo 29]

An interesting pic

[ig]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/mr_rOk/civvysniper.jpg[/img]

A civilian with a scoped AK/SKS(?) aiming at school...off CNN

It looks like he has a handkerchief or something tied around his left upper arm, could have been used as a means of police/security forces identifying themselves? Just a random observation

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]someone did his homework ;)

You can bet on that. Although I am with "regular" military we do have a lot of training for terrorist scenarios as it is part of modern warfare. It fusions. It´s not only policework but military gets involved a lot in such situations. I for myself have never been to a terrorist situation here in europe but some scenarios that I´ve been part of abroad came very close to it. We had hostage situations but as a matter of fact most of them were sorted right when they started.

Example: Members of WFP were taken hostage in Belet right before we patrolled the town. The kidnappers didn´t even manage to take them to their hideout before we got all of them. A Bell, 2 TPZ´s and 2 Wiesels that were at the location within 10 minutes made sure that they didn´t even have a chance. Why wait for negotiations when you have the big balls in your lagguage ?

What I´m afraid of more in europe or any other so called "civilized" country is the political influence on decisions. It can slow down effective actions a lot or even hinder them.

Politicians are no good in deciding when it comes to fast paced scenarios. They are by definition not able to handle such situations without checking left and right and middle and up and down before they start "talks".

That´s what makes me nervous, because even if you had the

material and personell to solve a crisis like that there will always be politicians who are more concerned about their worthy electors and public opinion before they start rolling.

[ran 0]

I've got agree there, unfortunately.

[Ironsight 1]

An interesting pic

[ig]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/mr_rOk/civvysniper.jpg[/img]

A civilian with a scoped AK/SKS(?) aiming at school...off CNN

It looks like he has a handkerchief or something tied around his left upper arm, could have been used as a means of police/security forces identifying themselves? Just a random observation

The evening after the the Russian army stormed the building, civilians formed millitia's to maintain security themselves (still a lot of terrrorist where running arround). That explains the handkerchief, it was used for millitia's to indentify themselves

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]The evening after the the Russian army stormed the building, civilians formed millitia's to maintain security themselves (still a lot of terrrorist where running arround). That explains the handkerchief, it was used for millitia's to indentify themselves

I wonder how many FF insidents happened there, all the idegriedents for ff were there..

[Ironsight 1]

Excuse my ignorance but what's FF?

[turms 0]

friendly fire

[Ironsight 1]

friendly fire  

Don't think it happened much (at least didn't heard of it), but I do know one of the hostage takers was lynched by civilians.

[theavonlady 2]

Coming to a theater near you.

Quote[/b] ]Cleric supports targeting children

By Rajeev Syal

(Filed: 05/09/2004)

An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq.

"As long as the Iraqi did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okay."

Mr Mohammed, 44, who lives in Edmonton, north London, but is originally from Syria, also claimed that the Chechen rebels were not responsible for the deaths of more than 350 people - at least half of them children - who are so far known to have died in Beslan.

"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.

The father of seven came to Britain in 1985 after being deported from Saudi Arabia because of his membership of a banned group. He has since been given leave by the Home Office to remain in Britain for five years but the Government is reviewing his status.

He gave an interview yesterday to promote a "celebratory" conference in London next Saturday to commemorate the third anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Andrew Dismore, the Labour MP for Hendon, was infuriated by Mr Mohammed's comments. "That sounds to me like incitement and I will report him to Scotland Yard," he said. "It is an insult to most moderate Muslims, who are sick of people like this claiming to represent them."

Wake up sleepy-heads!

[Scorpio 0]

I was just about to say they celebrate the 9/11 attacks when I read a bit more on the article.

Britain is loaded with these wahabi guys. You'll find a lot of the leaders there brainwashing young muslims, and unfortunately, it usually works.

[edit]

Quote[/b] ]"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.

LOL. You can't get any more retarded than that. They were the cowards - they took the women and children hostage in the first place instead of honorably fighting the russian military, so it's their fault if anything happens to them.

[Placebo 29]

Quote[/b] ]"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.

Numerous reports from different sources say the terrorists were shooting children in the back as they tried to escape, that's Russia's fault?

[Scorpio 0]

Exactly. There's no limit to the stupidity.

[edit] Btw, does anyone know if the russian police and military approve of the civilians taking up arms? Is it in their constitution for a civilian to have the right to an arm? Not that I'm saying thats a bad thing; it's perfectly useful in aiding the military...it's just that if somebody did something like that here in UK for example, the coppers would have a hard time chasing two groups.

[Gadger 0]

Whatever course of action Putin takes next will be the wrong one in some people's eyes. You cannot appease everyone.

Russian troops acted just as savagely in Grozny and various other parts of Chechnya during the first war, I'm not trying to condone the actions of these terrorists, nor would I ever want to, but claiming that these people are mindless, barbaric muslim fanatics is a bit biased.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and as soon as Russia and the interior ministry realise that, the better.

[philcommando 0]

2 wrongs will never make 1 right.

Under normal circumstances during a robbery, police are trained to shoot the criminals, but usually in crowded places, the police will never fire and most of the time just shadow the robbers till they are in a safe position to blow the hell out of them.

However when the robbers start firing in crowded places, all hell will break lose cos if the police does nothing, more innocent people will die through indiscrimate firing of the robbers.

Considering the many barbaric tales of the russian military, they have shown considerable restrain for 3 days in not storming into building to rescue anyone even though their own children were raped, shot and starved. Only when bombs started, the russian military were forced to storm in to prevent more deaths, at the expense of their own lives and they know for sure there wont be 72 virgins waiting for them in the next world, unlike the beasts.

Collateral dammage is common. Thing is, would any state be so barbaric to just bomb everyone indiscriminately? When a leader choose the path of violence instead of the negotiating table to achieve his aims, he knows full well people will die. If he truly cares for his people, he will NEVER put innocent women and children together with his own combatants, and would evacuate them to safe areas out of harms way.

However, what the world saw was scumbags DELIBRATELY putting combatants and non-combatants together, the way criminals do to protect their own lives, and when the non-combatants died in the crossfire, they squeal like pigs to get world's attention. This is happening not only in Chenchnya, but all over the world where religion is an easy tool to gain sympathy and where humanity is not respected.

There is nothing that i say can change an iota of anything, but i would appeal to anyone who is a muslim or has a muslim friend here to stop the madness of the beasts and clerics. Report to the authorities those who preach intolerance to fellow human beings. Report any would be beasts attempts to conduct killings onto their fellow human kind. They may pray to the same God as u, but they are not your kind for they have forsaken their right to be humans and live peaceably with their neighbours. Let not the children of Beslan die in vain, this i plead.

[Ironsight 1]

Today in the Washington Post

Quote[/b] ]Russia Admits It Lied On Crisis

Public Was Misled On Scale of Siege

By Susan B. Glasser and Peter Finn

Washington Post Foreign Service

Monday, September 6, 2004; Page A01

MOSCOW, Sept. 5 -- The Russian government admitted Sunday that it lied to its people about the scale of the hostage crisis that ended with more than 300 children, parents and teachers dead in southern Russia, making an extraordinary admission through state television after days of intense criticism from citizens.

As the bereaved families of Beslan began to lay their loved ones to rest Sunday, the Kremlin-controlled Rossiya network aired gripping, gruesome footage it had withheld from the public for days and said government officials had deliberately deceived the world about the number of hostages inside School No. 1.

Full article

[CrackerJack 0]

It didnt suprise me that Putin would twist and turn this for his own use, only thing that suprised me was that it wasn´t the media. If own militia is being formed there then it´s not hospitable for those who came from southern kaukasus just to live there.

Scorpio they are not brain washed people, they are those who lost their families too and have not much to live for, it has a more deep reason but to blaim it on stupidity and brainwashing is stupid in it´s way. This has nothing to do with 9/11, most countries celebrated it.

/damn spelling

[Scorpio 0]

Quote[/b] ]Scorpio they are not brain washed people, they are those who lost their families too and have not much to live for,

Oh, so they go and kill a load of kids in a school? If I was a Chechnyan who had not much to live for, then I'd fight against the invasion force, the military, the same people who have invaded the country...not kidnap schoolkids.

Quote[/b] ]it has a more deep reason but to blaim it on stupidity and brainwashing is stupid in it´s way.

I wasn't blaming it on stupidity. The reason I was blaming the behavior of these supposed-muslims on brainwashing is because they HAVE been brainwashed by the same people who started wahabi islam. Their leaders spend all their money for campaigns and hire scholars to 'teach' the uneducated masses. What do you blame it on? Or do you not blame it on nothing...just 'not much to live for'.

Quote[/b] ]This has nothing to do with 9/11, most countries celebrated it.

I never said it did. I was referring the article posted by theavonlady.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

It didnt suprise me that Putin would twist and turn this for his own use, only thing that suprised me was that it wasn´t the media. If own militia is being formed there then it´s not hospitable for those who came from southern kaukasus just to live there.

Scorpio they are not brain washed people, they are those who lost their families too and have not much to live for, it has a more deep reason but to blaim it on stupidity and brainwashing is stupid in it´s way. This has nothing to do with 9/11, most countries celebrated it.

/damn spelling

well there maybe a tedious link seeing as 9 of the 20 odd terrorist's were of arab origin along with it being a known fact that alot of Al Q operatives train and fight in Chech.