The Iraq thread 4

[Akira 0]

Not too long ago I was watchign the McLaughlin Group and during one of their segments talked about Iraq. They gave the extimated death toll as 100000 (a tiny bit over actually).

[Balschoiw 0]

Ok finally found the massiv blacked out US report and the corresponding unblacked version:

Blacked US version, PDF

Unblacked version, DOC file

Had no time to work them through by now.

Enjoy.

[Tovarish 0]

Anyway, 2 F/A-18 Hornets got lost of Iraq in an assumed in-air collision:

1 pilot's body has been found, no word on wreckage

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/05/02/jets-050503.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, IRAQ - The U.S. military has found the body of one of its missing pilots after losing contact with two Marine Corps. fighter jets over Iraq, officials said Wednesday.

The military last heard from the F/A-18 Hornet jets at about 10:10 p.m. local time on Monday night, a spokesman said.

Staff Sgt. Nick Minecci said there was "no initial indication of hostile fire" involved in the area at the time.

Early Wednesday, the military said in a brief statement that one pilot's body had been found.

It did not reveal whether any wreckage had been found, or where the pilot's body has been located.

There was speculation that the jets might have collided.

The jets were from the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson.

[DanAK47 1]

Here's some more stuff for you to argue about:

http://news.yahoo.com/s....VRPUCUl

"US satellite recorded checkpoint shooting, shows speed of Italian car: CBS"

[der bastler 0]

Ok finally found the massiv blacked out US report and the corresponding unblacked version:

Blacked US version, PDF

Unblacked version, DOC file

Had no time to work them through by now.

Enjoy.

Funny story how you can unclassify it:

http://it.slashdot.org/article....tid=103

Copy and paste...

You can't tell me they are that dumb when it comes to handling classified documents. Can't believe that. Perhaps an act of disinformation?

*remembers Sun Zi*

[breaker44 0]

Okay, don't shut this down please as I simply wish to state my horror at the actions that were taken at Abu Grahib prison in Iraq. As a soldier and a man who is religious, and simply as an American, these actions are absolutely disgusting. This kind of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I hope that other US citizens and servicepeople agree. Maybe the Iraqis were the enemy, but for God's sake, show some mercy.

Needed to vent a little, it just sickens me to think that the media is going to splatter the public with these pictures and not show any positive news outta Iraq. Damn shame. Disgusting.

Breaker Out

[Acecombat 0]

You could have said this in the Iraq thread , much more relevant there.

[Crazysheep 1]

Needed to vent a little, it just sickens me to think that the media is going to splatter the public with these pictures and not show any positive news outta Iraq. Damn shame. Disgusting.

Breaker Out

The media was almost euphoric about progress in Iraq after the elections were relatively successful, and indeed neglected some of the bad news. When important bad news happens, it gets coverage, and when important good news happen, it gets coverage. Minor things about some schools improving aren't worthy of coverage, because they aren't really significant.

[breaker44 0]

Actually, crazy, with all due respect, I'm a journalism major, I know what I'm talking about.

Breaker Out

BTW

As I said, I wnat this thread to focus on abu grahib specifically, not join the Anti-us thread.

[Akira 0]

I've taken my fair share of journalism classes as well when I got my Communication Arts degree. The simple fact is "If it bleeds, it leads" and that is where the bad news comes from. This is from every media outlet. Why do you think local news usually leads off with a murder, or rape, or car crash? You have to get the viewers attention.

In any case, England got a mistrial and we start all over again.

Quote[/b] ]... not join the Anti-us thread.

I think you have a problem objectively looking at your countries actions. Specifically, despite ample evidence that Rumsfield and other high level people oked the humiliation and torture, only the little folk of Abu Gahrib have been charged and tried. Why is that?

[Baphomet 0]

It's rumored that a private security contracting firm like Blackwater or Dyneco (sp?) had a hand in the Abu Ghraib incident. If you don't know who those are... well I'll just take Zack Parsons' description of them from SomethingAwful.

Blackwater USA is a corporation devoted to military and paramilitary training and it is the leading provider of armed "civilian contractors" for the United States in Iraq. Blackwater has provided security for VIPs, has gone on combat missions normally executed by the US armed forces, and the death of four of its operatives and the abuse of their corpses by an angry mob prompted the United States Marine Corps to storm Fallujah. They operate outside US military law, have participated in interrogation of detainees, and have probably been responsible for an unknown number of civilian deaths in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]Actually, crazy, with all due respect, I'm a journalism major, I know what I'm talking about.

You'll fit right in with the scores of other journalists who can't say or spell Abu Ghraib.

Quote[/b] ] Maybe the Iraqis were the enemy, but for God's sake, show some mercy.

Hm. You wouldn't by any chance be hoping for an appointment at Fox, would you? As a side note. How about not switching one regime of torture for another? It seems Iraqis are the enemies of people with power to abuse. Poor bastards.

[denoir 0]

Specifically, despite ample evidence that Rumsfield and other high level people oked the humiliation and torture, only the little folk of Abu Gahrib have been charged and tried. Why is that?

That is the most embarrasing thing about it all. Seymour Hersh, published in May 2004 a detailed report of how the Abu Ghraib torure is directly linked to the Pentagon.

Yet, this was largely ignored in US media. Focus was on the soldiers who did the actual torturing and the big picture was lost.

It all started in Afghanistan as a ROE problem...

Read:

The Gray Zone, by Seymour Hersh [The New Yorker]

[quicksand 0]

Our Romanian president just went on TV to tell us the hostages situation complicated because their kidnappers are more confident after they managed to unleash a serious level of violence in recent days.

It's 10 AM in Baghdad and 25 policeman and soldiers are already dead.Yesterday 60 recruiters for jobs at the police were also killed along with ten other Iraqi soldiers.A tally of the toll in less then one week peaks 200,Iraqi soldiers and policemen forming the core of it.

US casualties have returned at their average pace along with the considerable increase of ambushes and roadside bombs.

The much acclaimed ellections which were credited for "stabbing the insurgency in the back and kneeling it once and for all" after they managed to somhow get up again after their "back was broken" in Fallujah showing their "desperation and low morale" did in fact nothing to weaken the resistance.

I think this is the Iraqi government one last chance to make itself mather and stabilise the country.The only way is by direct negotiations with the Saddam loyalists party forming the insurgency(being the funders,organisers,core and military trained).Bend in to some of their demands,compromise and their might be an Iraq to speak of after US forces leave the country.

[Placebo 28]

Abu Ghraib thread merged into here.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]That is the most embarrasing thing about it all.

Sanchez was cleared of charges just one week ago, while the memos he wrote on torture do tell that he accepted if not introduced the torture in Iraq´s prison. It really makes me wonder why all the up-high´s go out of this unscratched.

And yes, this includes Rumsfeld as well. He was very much aware of the ongoing violation of human rights and furthermore did encourage the use of torture.

It´s a shame that those people do go unpunished.

There are rumours also that Lindy England will get away with 3 years in jail and will be released after 1,5 years. Very funny.

What does this tell the average governmental torturer ?

It´s no big deal to torture for fun and if you got protection by US authorities it will be no big matter at all...

The whole torture case is handled with very lax.

Current news:

Audits find flaws in US handling of Iraq funds

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON, May 4: The United States has carelessly, and possibly fraudulently, handled some Iraqi money used for reconstruction, according to US audits that found nearly 100 million dollars in cash unaccounted for in one area of Iraq alone. Two audits by the US Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction found flaws in how US government and military officials ran contracts paid for by the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) — Iraqi money entrusted to the United States after the 2003 occupation.

Incompetence included contractors sometimes paid twice, files misplaced, cash payments unaccounted for and scant evidence that goods and services were provided.

“There was no assurance that fraud, waste and abuse did not occur in the management and administration of contracts funded by DFI,†said the auditors. The development fund is made up of proceeds from Iraqi oil sales, frozen assets from foreign governments and surplus from the UN Oil for Food program. Handling of the fund has already come under fire by previous US as well as UN-mandated audits.

The United States has also criticized the United Nations over its administration of the separate Oil for Food program.

An audit released by the Iraq reconstruction inspector in January concluded the US had not properly safeguarded about 8.8 billion dollars of Iraq’s own money in the development fund.

Of concern in the new audit was poor oversight of hundreds of millions of dollars of cash used to pay contractors. With Iraq’s banking system in tatters, cash is a common form of payment.

In one audit looking at about 119.9 million dollars in DFI cash paid out in south-central Iraq, auditors found deficiencies “of such magnitude as to require prompt attentionâ€. The account manager could not properly account for over 96.6 million dollars in cash.

“During this audit we found indications of potential fraud and referred these matters to the Assistant Inspector General for Investigations (for Iraq reconstruction).â€

INCOMPETENCE: Examples of incompetence included 645 transfers of more than 23 million dollars in cash using the wrong form; one contractor was paid twice for the same work and 10 payments amounting to 324,500 dollars were submitted for cancelled contracts. Six cash handouts for 407,420 dollars were submitted without contractor signatures.

Other problems included the fact that US staff handling large amounts of cash had not signed appointment letters that included liability language.

Two payment officers with cash account balances of 777,050 dollars and 715,000 dollars left Iraq without clearing their balances with the account manager. An attempt was made to remove these outstanding balances by “simply washing accountsâ€, said the audit report.—Reuters

A lot of people seem to benefit from Iraq´s money, but not the Iraqui´s themselves. It´s funny how the US tries to go after Kofi Annan in the oil for food issue but has more than a blindeye on the handling of money that doesn´t even belong to them...

And another coalition partner exits Iraq in december:

Japan to pull troops from Iraq by Dec. 14

Quote[/b] ]The government has begun preparing to withdraw the Self-Defense Forces from Iraq and its vicinity in December when their noncombat mission expires, government sources said Wednesday.

Japan plans to notify the Diet and countries concerned as early as September after assessing the situation in Iraq. It will then switch mostly to official development assistance to help the battered country, the sources said.

The move is being timed to coincide with the launch of a legitimate Iraqi government and the end of the U.N.-sanctioned deployment of multinational forces there at the end of the year, they said.

Among countries participating in the multinational effort, Italy has indicated it plans a gradual pullout, while Poland has said it will withdraw completely in early 2006.

Japan will likely have to announce its plans by September if it decides to withdraw by the end of the year, because preparation and implementation is estimated to take about three months, the sources said.

In December, Japan extended the SDF's deployment to Iraq and surrounding countries based on a special law allowing it to assist with reconstruction until Dec. 14 this year.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said late last year that his government decided to extend the mission in light of its alliance with the United States and its desire to cooperate with the international community.

Up to 600 Ground Self-Defense Force troops have been stationed in Samawah in southern Iraq since early last year to repair schools and roads and provide clean water and medical aid.

About 200 Air Self-Defense Force troops stationed in Kuwait are transporting goods and U.S. military personnel to and from Iraq.

In April, a transitional Iraqi government headed by Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari was launched. Its main task will be to draw up a Constitution, which will help pave the way for the election of a formal government by Dec. 15.

Ikimasho !

[quicksand 0]

Continued...

Bulgaria to pull troops out of Iraq

Quote[/b] ]Bulgaria to pull troops out of Iraq

Bulgaria's outgoing Parliament has voted to withdraw all the country's troops from Iraq by the end of the year.

The decision was adopted after a heated debate with 110 votes for, 53 against and 45 MPs abstaining.

It comes just days after the country suffered its 10th military fatality in Iraq.

Defence Minister Nikolai Svinarov, who drafted the proposal, says Bulgaria is not abandoning its allies in Iraq.

He says negotiations about new forms of participation are under way.

These could include helping to train troops in Iraq and helping rebuild infrastructure the country.

[Colossus 2]

The Sunday Times

Quote[/b] ]

Radiation rockets on sale to ‘terrorists’

THREE radioactive rockets capable of contaminating a city

centre were offered for sale last week to a Sunday Times

reporter posing as a middleman for Islamic terrorists.

The Alazan rockets, which have a range of eight miles, were

among 50,000 tons of weapons left behind at an arms dump

in the breakaway eastern European republic of Transdniester

when the Russian army withdrew after the cold war.

They were offered to the reporter for $500,000 (Å263,000)

after he approached a senior officer in Transdniester’s secret

police, claiming to represent a militant group in Algeria.

The officer contacted a local arms dealer who arranged

meetings with the reporter on a bridge in Transdniester and

later at a hotel in neighbouring Moldova.

At their first meeting two months ago, the dealer said the

price of a single rocket would be $200,000. The rocket could

be independently inspected with a Geiger counter to verify

that its warhead contained radioactive strontium and

caesium, he said.

Last month the reporter was told that he would have to

transfer $2,000 to a bank account in Cyprus before the

inspection. He would then pay $8,000 for forged

documentation that would enable the rocket to be smuggled

across Transdniester’s border with Ukraine. It could be

collected at an airfield in southwestern Ukraine once the rest

of the asking price had been handed over.

Last week the dealer said that the terms had changed.

“My people want to sell three Alazans for a total sum of

$500,000,†he said.

According to the dealer, the rockets would be moved to

Ukraine tomorrow if the terms were accepted. The Sunday

Times withdrew from the negotiations once the availability of

the weapons had been confirmed.

Experts said the Alazan rockets, which were originally

intended for use in Soviet weather experiments, could spread

radiation for more than 20 miles from their point of impact.

Few people would die, they said, but the contamination would

cause widespread fear and disruption. Large areas would

have to be evacuated for a costly clean-up operation.

“The psychological impact would be devastating and the

economic damage would run into millions of pounds, “ said

Andy Oppenheimer, a consultant to Jane’s Information

Group. “The Alazan would be especially attractive for

terrorists seeking to strike a high security target.â€

United Nations and regional officials are pressing for tighter

security at the arms dump in Transdniester.

And they said that Iraq had weapons of mass-destruction?!

EDIT:Ops! Wrong thread, should be the War against terror thread.

My mistake! Shall I post it there instead?

[walker 0]

Hi all

Years after George Bush Junior declared an end to large scale hostilities in Iraq, over 1,000 US troops, artillery, helicopters and aircraft are involved in a large scale battle to recapture ground lost to the insurgents north of the Euphrates River.

Currently the battle is on to build a pontoon bridge over the river. With night actions similar to the bridge scene in Apocalypse now. The insurgents respond with mines, mortars and sniper fire. Villages in area are being leveled in what can only be described as a free fire zone, reminiscent of the Vietnam era.

Quote[/b] ]Posted on Sun, May. 08, 2005

U.S. troops launch attacks against villages along Euphrates

BY JAMES JANEGA

Chicago Tribune

UBAYDI, Iraq - (KRT) - More than 1,000 U.S. troops supported by fighter jets and helicopter gunships attacked villages Sunday along the Euphrates River, seeking to uproot a persistent insurgency in an area that American intelligence indicated has become a haven for foreign fighters flowing in from Syria.

Marine officials said the operation near the Syrian border, one of the largest involving U.S. ground troops since the battle for Fallujah last fall, is expected to last for several days. Plans to press the attack north of the Euphrates were temporarily derailed when insurgents on the south side of the river launched counterattacks, sparking heavy fighting in the small river town of Ubaydi.

While some American units were able to conduct limited raids north of the Euphrates on Sunday, most of the rest were trapped south of the river while Army engineers struggled to build a pontoon bridge across it.

U.S. military officials in Baghdad said forces that crossed the Euphrates had killed six insurgents and captured 54 more, using information gleaned from a captured aide to terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Marine officials in the region could not confirm those figures but said Predator drones were conducting air surveillance north of the river while other aircraft launched attacks on suspected insurgents.

U.S. military officials contend that this region of Anbar province west of Baghdad has become a rallying spot for insurgents, who then sneak into cities as far east as Baghdad. Some of them, officials say, also float back and forth across Iraq's porous border with Syria...

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/world/11598220.htm

It is my humble opinion that this was caused by having insufficient troops to occupy Iraq at the start; in support of that I remind everyone that this was also the opinion of the Generals TBA sacked for stating they needed more troops.

Now Iraq has turned into the festering insurgency that both the the generals and many people with millitary experience on this forum warned. That kind of insurgency infection tends to spread and never truly goes away.

Iraq is now a seriously ill country it may soon only be possible to conduct radical surgery and break it up into an eastern Shiite country that will almost certainly amalgamate with Iran, a Kurdish state that Turkey will go nuts about and a Sunni rump that will forever be a source of terrorism and warlordism like Somalia.

It is probably a good day to buy oil shares.

<EDIT>Reports are comming out that the Al Zaqawi aide who gave they information that lead to this assault may have been the bate for a trap.

The fact that mines were pre laid on the main access road seems to lend credance to this view.

Curently US forces are split at the river with raiding groups attacking north of it and the main force aparently stuck south of the river. This also lends credence to it being a trap.

Quote[/b] ]While some American units were able to conduct limited raids north of the Euphrates on Sunday, most of the rest were trapped south of the river while Army engineers struggled to build a pontoon bridge across it.

ibid <End EDIT>

Sadly walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

May just be my paranoia but I hope that the generals in the Al Anbar province battle are guarding and checking the Dam up near Islamiyah if they are fighting as they are now below it and in the river bed at Al Haditha. see map in this link: http://www.multimap.com/map....2000000

As this latest attack bears the hallmarks of a trap, blowing the Dam would probably prove to be the traps teeth.

To my friends in II MEF fighting there take care, keep your heads down and spirits up.

Kind Regards Walker

[quicksand 0]

Insurgents Fight Back in Western Iraq

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. forces hunting down followers of Iraq's most wanted terrorist pushed into a lawless region near the Syrian border Tuesday after meeting unexpected resistance from insurgents hidden in remote desert outposts along the southern banks of the Euphrates River.

Marines fought house-to-house Monday against dozens of well-armed insurgents firing at them from balconies, rooftops and sandbagged bunkers in the border town of Obeidi and surrounding villages, the Los Angeles Times reported.

As many as 100 militants have been killed since Operation Matador, one of the largest American offensives in Iraq in six months, began Saturday night in Qaim, 200 miles west of Baghdad, the military said.

At least three U.S. Marines have been killed in the offensive, which involves more than 1,000 Marines, sailors and soldiers backed by helicopter gunships and fighter jets.

A Los Angeles Times reporter embedded with U.S. forces said 20 American troops were wounded, but the U.S. military could not immediately confirm that.

Gunmen, meanwhile, kidnapped the governor of Iraq's western Anbar province Tuesday and told his family he would be released when U.S. forces withdraw from Qaim, relatives said. Gov. Raja Nawaf Farhan al-Mahalawi was seized as he drove from Qaim to the provincial capital of Ramadi, his brother, Hammad, told The Associated Press.

The offensive comes amid a surge of militant attacks across Iraq, often targeting security forces and civilians, since the new government was announced April 28.

Two car bombs exploded in Baghdad, killing at least seven people and wounding 19, police said. Three American soldiers were among the injured, the U.S. military said.

It also said three U.S. Marines were killed in central Iraq on Monday, one by a homemade bomb in Nasser Wa Salaam, 25 miles west of Baghdad, and two others by indirect fire in Karmah, 50 miles west of the capital.

Marine Capt. Jeffrey Pool said troops built a pontoon bridge across the Euphrates on Monday and pushed into the northern Jazirah Desert, a largely unpatrolled area near the Syrian border.

"This is an area which we believe has been pretty heavy with foreign insurgents from many different areas — Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Palestine," Lt. Col. Steven Boylan, a spokesman for U.S. forces in Iraq, told The Associated Press late Monday. "That's a fairly porous area of the border because of the terrain. It is very difficult."

Residents reported fighting Tuesday in Obeidi, 185 miles west of Baghdad, and the two nearby towns of Rommana and Karabilah. Speaking by telephone, they said frightened residents were fleeing the Qaim area.

"It's truly horrific, there are snipers everywhere, rockets, no food, no electricity," Abu Omar al-Ani, a father of three, said from Qaim on Monday night. "Today five rockets fell in front of my house. ... We are mentally exhausted."

Pool said insurgents had tried to launch a counterattack Monday night 4 1/2 miles from U.S. Camp Gannon in Qaim. They attacked a Marine convoy with small arms fire, rocket-propelled grenades, roadside bombs and two suicide car bombers, Pool said.

One bomb damaged an armored Humvee, and a suicide car bomber was destroyed by a U.S. Marine tank, but no Marines were killed and 10 insurgents surrendered, Pool said.

Marine commanders expressed surprise at the extent of resistance Monday in Obeidi and surrounding villages on the southern side of the Euphrates, telling the Chicago Tribune their intelligence had indicated the insurgency had massed on the other side of the waterway.

In the towns of Sabah, Obeidi and Karabilah, insurgents fired mortar rounds at U.S. Marine convoys along the Euphrates' southern edge, the Los Angeles Times said.

An embedded Chicago Tribune reporter wrote that in one house, militants in the basement fired rifles and machine guns upward through holes in the walls at ankle height, aiming at spots the Marines' body armor did not cover.

At one point, the Times said, a Marine walked into a house and an insurgent hiding in the basement fired through a floor grate, killing him. Another Marine who was retrieving a wounded comrade suffered shrapnel wounds from a militant's grenade, the Times said.

Marine commanders expressed surprise at the extent of resistance Monday in Obeidi and villages on the southern side of the Euphrates, telling the Chicago Tribune their intelligence had indicated the insurgency had massed on the other side of the river.

In Sabah, Obeidi and Karabilah, the Times reporter said, insurgents fired mortar rounds at U.S. Marine convoys along the southern edge of the Euphrates.

The report said one Marine suffered a broken back and at least two were wounded Sunday when a land mine hit their tank.

The New York Times reported that Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle fighters dropped two 500-pound laser-guided bombs and fired 510 20-millimeter cannon rounds Sunday against insurgents around Qaim and that Marine F/A-18 fighters fired 319 20-millimeter cannon rounds.

"The enemy honestly felt that they had a sense of security up there," U.S. Col. Bob Chase, chief of operations for the 2nd Marine Division, told the newspaper. "Now it is no longer a safe haven, and it will never be a safe haven again."

He was quoted as saying insurgents have had a network of illegal "rat lines" of men and materials moving from Syria into Iraq that had to be stopped.

Latest news is that they are fighting rebels equipped with body armour puting a fierce resistance in every single village and massing the majority of their efforts to keep the city of al-Quaim.

They seem to have the element of surprise and the man power to last in this fight and I say that fully knowing US crushing armor power and mostly invulnerable air support,I predict there will be even fiercer fighting in the following days and the rebels won't give up without a Fallujah style resistance.It is a vital route from which they need to keep their supplies coming in from Syria ranging from fresh recruits,weapons and not the least money.

[FerretFangs 0]

And it's just a matter of time before we cut them off, and kill them all. When you add overhead surveillance with (possibly armed) UAV's, Spooky gunhips, and Army Apache and Marine Cobras, it's very much a one-sided fight.

I wouldn't be willing to put a time line on it, but overwhelming force means just that.... it's overwhelming.

We didn't shy away from what needed to be done in Fallujha, and in a short amount of time we handed the insugents their own asses.

Likewise, we will smash the insurgents here too.

The real question is Syria. At what point does the Administration draw a line in the sand, and tell Syria that enough is enough? When will we point the stick in Syrias face, and threaten them with the full capabilities that we can bring to bear? It's time to put paid to Syria's support of the insurgency once and for all.

This where our incredible SPECOPS forces should be focused, not just within the borders of Iraq, but if necessary, deep into Syria as well. We should be interdicting, operating proactively, pre-emptively, not just reacting to the next insurgent uprising that pops up along the syrian border.

The kid gloves need to come off. It's time to start the whole-sale slaughter of the insurgent fighters where they come from, BEFORE they cross the border. It's not like we aren't already enemies. Might as well give them the full treatment.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]And it's just a matter of time before we cut them off, and kill them all.

Yeah but victory would totally suck now since you've already ran out of body parts to brandash your succeses.If I were to keep a log as per claims I would say that the insurgency is curently headless,backless,legless,armless crawling it's final mutilated pieces of it's weakened moral and increasingly desperate remains all the way to pre ellections level of violence.

This typical arrogance and superiority complex is part of the cause that made Iraq such a mess and a chaotic place it curently is.

Quote[/b] ]We didn't shy away from what needed to be done in Fallujha, and in a short amount of time we handed the insugents their own asses.

Indeed,you leveled the entire city to the ground managed to force out some 300,000 civillians of which a majority has still not returned back and a short lived succes against the rebels that soon regrouped in Mosul and other parts of Iraq returning to the average level of violence.

Quote[/b] ]Likewise, we will smash the insurgents here too.  

Smash,bash,annihilate,desintegrate,kill 'em all-your army really has a record to be proud of.Then again,it takes only an average educated person to point out that with exactly this mind set you've been runing in circles for the last two years,achieving basicly nothing in terms of rooting out the rebels and stoping the violence.

Your cravings for bloodshed and necesity of the kid gloves needing to come off-I fear to even imagine what you're thinking of that could surpass 100,000 civillians,blind you from the most basic reality form.

You might have the most incredible SPECOPS,the most uber air surveillance and support and anything else you would like to point out but 1,600 of your best still took the fall against an enemy that has nothing more then three decades old weaponry with no armored and air support to enjoy of.The same enemy shows  no sign of running out of steam and desire to rid Iraq of your occupation after two years of fighting,a war declared winned and numerous subsequent intense battles,their leader and other high ranking commanders captured and so on and so forth.

History has already prooved that when the resistance is cunning and intelligent enough,the outcome of the war even when facing a super power won't be decided by how odds look on paper nor by casualties numbers but instead it turns into a contest of will to stay comited to each one's cause and demoralise your opponent and isolate his civillian support.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]When will we point the stick in Syrias face, and threaten them with the full capabilities that we can bring to bear?

Oh please. Think about what you are saying for once before start typing. Full capabilities? What full capabilities? In case you have missed it many generals and analysts have already said the US is stretched thin with Afghanistan, Iraq, and its other global operations. You think we can handle another full army that undoubtedly would gain the support of the entire ME and its full capabilities if we so much as sneeze across their border?

Your ignorant "rah rah America can do anything" BS is getting really annoying, particularly since you are so obviously blinded to the realities of the world because of your fanatical patriotism and Bush worship.

Just another horrible arm chair general that seems to think insurgents live in cities like Insurgenttown and carry signs to make identification easier. They live within the populace and blend into the surroundings. How exactly are we suppose to "get them where they come from" without including a whole lot of civilian casualties? Perhaps your "full capabilities" include nukes, since after all, they are only Arabs right?

Quote[/b] ]Likewise, we will smash the insurgents here too.

THe only thing we managed to smash was a city, civilians, and a few insurgents who, as was already mentioned, disappeared and then reappeared elsewhere to begin the fight again.

[denoir 0]

We didn't shy away from what needed to be done in Fallujha, and in a short amount of time we handed the insugents their own asses.

Ah, yes Fallujah, really a shining example of success.

Are you drunk?

There was about 1,000-2,000 insurgents in the city. The attacking force consisted of 6,000 US soldiers and 1,500 Iraqi soldiers.

The result was between 80-100 killed or wounded resistance fighters, 38 dead marines and 275 wounded marines. Full civilian casualties count unknown, but believed to be 1,000+

Yeah, the world's "best trained and equipped" military attacked, with a five times larger force, a band of guerrillas armed with weapons that were obsolete three decades ago - and the result was three times as many wounded or dead Americans. Way to go. If anything, Fallujah is a great example of the ongoing failure to get some form of peace in Iraq. It demonstrated the complete inability of the US military to wage effective war in conditions like those found in Iraq.

I suppose next you'll be claiming that Thermopylae was a great Persian victory.

[FerretFangs 0]

No one said we have to play fair, (It's war. Fairness need not apply.) we only have to win.