The Iraq thread 4

[herman01 0]

By the way those who do believe in this war need to go and join the fight instead of being arm chair patriots. The is a war of choice. You don't see the Bush kids contributing to this epic "WW2" like war on terror.

[Warden 0]

ill thik youll find that most members of this forum have served in the military, i myself have just signed up to the British army.

Regarding the Bronco i haven't seen any info sayingthat it actually was retired from servce, i assume it stil has its role as an OBS craft for the USMC.

di

On Another note the UK Mea is pouting about an RAF officer who refused to serve in Iraq

A military doctor who refused to return to Iraq for service has been jailed for eight months and dismissed from the RAF for disobeying orders.

At a court martial, Dr Malcolm Kendall-Smith likened the invasion of Iraq to a Nazi war crime.

He will be appealing against his conviction by a panel of five RAF officers of five charges of failing to comply with lawful orders.

His solicitor, Justin Hugheston-Roberts, said: "Now more so than ever, he feels that his actions were totally justified."

The 37-year-old, who has dual British/New Zealand citizenship, had claimed the ongoing presence of American-led forces in Iraq was illegal.

He told the military hearing he refused to serve in Basra last July because he did not want to be complicit with an "act of aggression" contrary to international law.

David Perry, prosecuting, said the case against Kendall-Smith was that the orders were lawful and he had a duty to obey them as a commissioned officer.

He added that the question of the invasion of Iraq was irrelevant because it occurred prior to the charges which date back to last year.

He added that at the time of the charges, the presence of coalition forces in Iraq was unquestionably legal because they were there at the request of the country's democratically elected government.

In mitigation, Philip Sapsford said: "He has an exemplary record. He served Her Majesty the Queen and her country not once, not twice but three times.

Whilst this may seem like a Military Degragation it isnt, he is actually being tried for not reporting for small arms training at Lossiemouth and for not reporting to other training courses.

[Nemesis6 0]

Its part of NeoCon agenda in fact there is a document signed by many of the top neo cons including Cheney, Rumsfield some of the Bush's and etc.. I can't remember this document but it is easy to find if you want to look for it. The evidence of this is overwhelming, more and more evidence is disclosed everyday.

Would you let people in on where this specific document is located? I could say that there's a document out there that proves that liberals are really aliens, but that I don't know where it's located. That would be just as ludicrous as long as there's no evidence of it whatsoever.

Please, I'm pretty interested in knowing about this document proving the "NeoCon agenda". I mean it. Don't just ignore my post, I want to know where it's located. And please don't tell me to look for it myself, because when I look for it, I will have to scroll through dozens and dozens of left-wing conspiracy sites. And I don't want to do that if that document doesn't exist in the first place. You claim to have read it, prove its existance to us.

[herman01 0]

Heres a link to area with all you need to know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Century

 Not that any of the truth really maters to you though. I know your type. Anyways these PNAC people are a large part of what Eisenhower would the Congressional/Military Industrial complex. Its funny how America never gets its bang for its buck on defense spending isnt it. As much as America throws into it we should have a much better military than what we have today. Anyways you seem have pretty conservative ditto-head opinion of the world so to argue this point with you is pointless becuase it won't go anywhere with you. Honestly though I've seen people die, my friends get seriosly hurt. Woulndt you think I would want this war to be right and just. The fact is I just can't be a jellyfish on this issue. I'm going to stand up for what I know is true. Your pretty foolish to ever believe any politcian but I guess people have always been that way, and will continue be that way.

I have one question for you nemesis are American and are you of enlistment age?

[walker 0]

Hi all

The number of US Generals calling for US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign has risen to seven.

Army Maj. Gen. John Riggs, 82nd Airborn Maj. Gen. Charles H Swannack Jr. Army General Anthony C. Zinni, Army General Eric Shinseki, Army Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, Marine Lieut. General Greg Newbold have all called now called on Rumsfeld to resign in less than a month.

This BBC report gives the two other generals that came out to say how badly Rumsfeld is running the war but puts the number at six (they missed one there are so many now journalists are loosing count)

Quote[/b] ]Rumsfeld resignation calls grow

Pressure is growing on US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, with more retired generals calling for him to resign over the Iraq war.

The White House has said it is happy with the way Mr Rumsfeld is handling his job and the situation in Iraq.

But the backing comes as the number of retired generals calling for him to be replaced has risen to six.

It is being described as a rebellion led by those who know Mr Rumsfeld's handling of the war from the inside.

The two most recent generals to voice their unease about Mr Rumsfeld's handling of the war are retired army Maj Gen John Riggs and retired Maj Gen Charles H Swannack Jr...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4908948.stm

Follow link for full story

Estimates from serving officers who have not come right out and said the want rid of Rumsfeld of disatisfaction among serving soldiers is 75% want Rumsfeld out now.

There are growing discussions about who TBA will replace Rumsfeld with. TBA has been suffering a massive credibility gap on the Iraq war and is said to be deperate for an answer. Geting rid of Rumsfeld is seen by some as a way of Rebranding TBA.

An OpEd piece in the Washington post has listed some of the candidates for replacing Rumsfeld:

Quote[/b] ]...Rumsfeld's replacement should be someone who can help restore a bipartisan consensus for a sensible Iraq policy. One obvious candidate would be the centrist Democrat Sen. Joe Lieberman. Another would be a centrist Republican with military experience, such as Sen. Chuck Hagel or Sen. John McCain. The administration would have to swallow its pride to take any of them on board, but that's the point: Without bold moves from the White House, support for the war will continue to slip away...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....38.html

Follow link for full story

However I think many will look on the job as a poison chalice certainly John McCain would be well advised to leave it to somone else.

Kind Regards Walker

[nindall 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Would you let people in on where this specific document is located?

Here's link to the PNAC homepage - www.newamericancentury.org

Of special interest is their 'report' on Rebuilding America's Defenses, under the defense and national security section.

Quote[/b] ]Please, I'm pretty interested in knowing about this document proving the "NeoCon agenda"...

And please don't tell me to look for it myself, because when I look for it, I will have to scroll through dozens and dozens of left-wing conspiracy sites.

If you really were interested then typing 'pnac' into practically any search engine would have brought up the their homepage first.

[Nemesis6 0]

Alright, I've read through it...

Conclusion - The so-called "NeoCon agenda" doesn't seem to be what you'd like it to be. While I haven't really heard a lot about these guys, they seem to be little more than, as the article says - A think tank. Arguing that they're part of some agenda to take over the world is just... well, it's leftist. You, my friend, are a conspiracy theorist. In my opinion, you make this organisation into something which would fit your own AGENDA - Making conservatives out to be monsters who wants to control the world.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In an aside to Nemesis6 first of all: I am sure that people said the bolsheviks, the national socialists, the jacobins and Maoism were conspircy theories too.

Then again we can also say that saying it is all just a leftwing conspiracy theory is just another right wingnut conspiracy theory too.

Getting away from the favourite grand "wo ooh!" conspiracy theory of Nemesis6 that it is all just a conspiracy theory though.

Back to Iraq

That death nell of all politicians the leaders full support has been given to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

Quote[/b] ]Bush Gives Rumsfeld Strong Show of Support

By TERENCE HUNT

The Associated Press

Friday, April 14, 2006; 2:09 PM

WASHINGTON -- President Bush, brushing aside an intensifying clamor among retired military commanders for Donald H. Rumsfeld's resignation, said Friday his defense secretary enjoys his full support and that Rumsfeld's leadership of the Pentagon was "exactly what is needed at this critical period."

Bush apparently issued his statement to put to rest increasing calls for the secretary to go because of criticism that he has mishandled the Iraq war and made other mistakes.

"I have seen first-hand how Don relies upon our military commanders in the field and at the Pentagon to make decisions about how best to complete these missions," Bush said in a written statement, issued while the president was spending the Easter weekend at Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland's Catoctin Mountains.

"Secretary Rumsfeld's energetic and steady leadership is exactly what is needed at this critical period," Bush said. "He has my full support and deepest appreciation." In an interview aired Friday on Al-Arabiya television, Rumsfeld said he intends to serve the president at his pleasure.

"The fact that two or three or four retired people have different views, I respect their views," Rumsfeld said. "But obviously if, out of thousands and thousands of admirals and generals, if every time two or three people disagreed we changed the secretary of defense of the United States, it would be like a merry-go-round."

Bush said he had talked with Rumsfeld earlier in the day about military operations in the war on terror. "I reiterated my strong support for his leadership during this historic and challenging time for our nation," the president said.

It was an extraordinary statement by the president on the status of a top official. Bush decided it was warranted because of the "type of voices" that have recently engaged in public criticism of Rumsfeld, a senior administration official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to more freely elaborate on the White House's thinking.

The official said that Rumsfeld's case was unique. There has been no similar statement for Treasury Secretary John Snow, whose resignation is rumored to be imminent.

The administration official said Bush's statement should make it clear that Rumsfeld's job is safe for now.

Several retired military commanders, including Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who turned down a promotion to lieutenant general in favor of leaving the Army, have recently made statements urging Rumsfeld's ouster. They argue that the planning for the war in Iraq was not sufficient and that Rumsfeld's management style has too often given shortshrift attention to the views of uniformed officers...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....82.html

The number of Generals calling for US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign now stands at seven.

Maj. Gen. John Batiste, Army Maj. Gen. John Riggs, 82nd Airborn Maj. Gen. Charles H Swannack Jr. Army General Anthony C. Zinni, Army General Eric Shinseki, Army Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, Marine Lieut. General Greg Newbold have all called now called on Rumsfeld to resign in less than a month.

TBA are already looking for his replacement but the job is a poison chalice certainly John McCain would be well advised to leave it well alone.

Kind Regards Walker

[Nemesis6 0]

Then again we can also say that saying it is all just a leftwing conspiracy theory is just another right wingnut conspiracy theory too.

Hold on, you're basically saying that my opposition to crazy theories like the Mossad or the American government, or some Zionist, right-wing, NeoCon organization having orchestrated 9/11 is based solely on the same thing as I accuse you of?

I mean seriously, is that how you handle it when people challenge your ridiculous claims of NeoCons dominating the world? That they're part of a giant group of people who want to shut you up because they know it's true?

You know what that sums up to?

Paranoia. Let's ask dictionary.com what that word means, or do you think dictionary.com is infiltrated by NeoCons as well...? Anyway -

Quote[/b] ]paranoia

A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.

# Extreme, irrational distrust of others

[walker 0]

Hi all

Nemesis6 so you think its all a leftwing conspiracy do you? And are the aliens from Roswell causing it? Or is it the great yellow press conspiracy? It never ceases to amaze the conspiracy theories that some people come up with.

NeoCons own websites say who their members are as do their meetings and the lectures they attend.

nindall points you to their the NeoConMens own website and you turn round and say that what he is pointing you at is a lefwing conspiracy.  

Shakes Head to shake the crazies off Walker

[Nemesis6 0]

Nope. I said that your criticism of it was based on your perception, which IS tainted by the very thing you speak of - conspiracies. And unlike Herman, I didn't actually say that liberals were. I said it was just as plausible at the time where I didn't know if that organisation existed.

My point is - The organisations that you target seem to be nothing more than a temporary target for your hatred of the current administration, and the fact that it challenges Middle-Eastern dictatorships -- as George Bush has done -- helps you rationalize.

By the way, I only read the wikipedia article about it. In my opinion, an opinion such as Herman's that the PNAC, as far as I understand, is yet another link in George Bush's plan to take over the world... that's called a conspiracy theory. I can't see how you keep denying that.

[herman01 0]

This will be my last post on the site. Its just agonizing for me to talk about this issue becuase it brings alot of powerful emotional ties with it.

The only point or impression that I would like to leave on Nemisis or anyone else is that after WWII the U.S. controlled much of the worlds wealth and since that point the U.S. government has been willing to do whatever it takes to keep a tight grip on it. That TBA and previous ones are willing to do anything to maintan. That should be excepted everyday knowledge, but we live in time of mass lies and spin. I've heard it said by people in the states with your very same ideology what is 2300 and rising dead U.S. troops. They figure more Americans of military age die like that in a week in America in car accidents alone. In to go with this mantality is also the lack of care or even thought of the innocent Iraqi lives that this "neccesary war" has taken some of which I have witnessed myself. To which the I believe number to around or above 100, 000. Quickly to the so called "liberal media". There has been a civil war in Iraq since to as far as I know Feb. 2004 when I became first hand aware that bodies belonging to one type of either Sunni or Shia muslim sect. These bodies began appearing in the Tigris and the Euphrates and dumped out in the middle of the desert usually blindfolder and bounded.  

   Nemisis I hope that you never come to face or see what is war in you life. If you do I hope that it disturbs you and that you just don't turn numb and unrespondent to the suffering that would surround you. I realize that you a still young according to you profile and that there is great deal of life events of ahead to shape who you are though.

   I love my country in its people greatly and I will continue with my service in the military. I will choose to serve because I feel have the ability and the care to lead those below me and also that I will be able to execute my orders ethicly and responsiblity. I feel as though others will not be able to hold onto the moral fiber which can be so easily destroyed by trying everyday circumstances. Everybody has point, I just havent reached it yet in that area, and if I ever do stop caring god help me.

   I appreciate people like you Walker who keep and in open eye and mind to the issues even if they my conflict with your personal beliefs or interests. Its so easy to believe the garbage they spill out today so that you feel comfortable and easy with what is being carried out by your own government.

   I also believe that the enemys that face america today are both foreign in domestic. I believe that the conservative Islamic groups that have attacked America need to be dealt with swiftly and that Sovreign nations who secretly support these groups should be embargoed. (i.e. TBA buddies to be included Pakistan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia).

   Thank you all for you time and attention and hopefully you open mind. I hope to see your post in BIS in less serious and emotional forums.

On a less serious not you guys should check out the progress of Vixer's Stryker add on. I can't wait for it to be released. I hope though he takes his time so that it can be of its highest quality.

[EiZei 0]

Nope. I said that your criticism of it was based on your perception, which IS tainted by the very thing you speak of - conspiracies. And unlike Herman, I didn't actually say that liberals were. I said it was just as plausible at the time where I didn't know if that organisation existed.

My point is - The organisations that you target seem to be nothing more than a temporary target for your hatred of the current administration, and the fact that it challenges Middle-Eastern dictatorships -- as George Bush has done -- helps you rationalize.

By the way, I only read the wikipedia article about it. In my opinion, an opinion such as Herman's that the PNAC, as far as I understand, is yet another link in George Bush's plan to take over the world... that's called a conspiracy theory. I can't see how you keep denying that.

So, what do you think neoconservatives believe in?

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]So, what do you think neoconservatives believe in?

this ?

[walker 0]

Hi all

The nuimber of Generals openly calling for Donald Rumsfeld to resign continues to rise.

Quote[/b] ]...The grievances aired by half a dozen retired flag officers in recent days resonated with many military veterans. "I admire those who have stepped forward, and I agree with the arguments they are making," retired Marine Lt. Gen. Paul K. Van Riper said in an interview yesterday. "I count myself in the same camp."

Van Riper, a lifelong Republican who voted for Bush in 2000 but did not vote in the 2004 election, said Rumsfeld has failed in a number of ways, including "disastrous" war planning and execution and fostering a poor command climate.

Retired Army Brig. Gen. Charles Brower, a military historian and deputy superintendent at Virginia Military Institute, said it is unusual to see such a group of retired generals issuing public criticism.

"Officers now feel that there is almost an obligation to speak more openly about policies that they disagreed with once they have retired," Brower said. "There is now a group of officers who feel an obligation to speak more aggressively, and I think that has to have been influenced by the Vietnam experience," during which miscalculations by the civilian leadership caused a military defeat and a years-long erosion in military morale.

"It's an important thing happening right now, an important phenomenon that's going on," Brower said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....49.html

Depite George Bush junior offering Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld his full support

Quote[/b] ]Bush Speaks Out for Rumsfeld

'My Full Support' For Defense Chief

By Peter Baker and Josh White

Washington Post Staff Writers

Saturday, April 15, 2006; Page A01

President Bush interrupted his Easter vacation yesterday to offer an unequivocal vote of confidence in Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, in a move aimed at countering a growing wave of criticism from retired generals calling for the Pentagon chief to resign over his leadership of the Iraq war.

In an unusual statement issued from Camp David, where he had already retired for the weekend, Bush stepped directly into the debate over Rumsfeld's performance to offer his "strong support" and make it clear he will keep the embattled defense secretary. Rumsfeld separately declared that he will not go

"I have seen firsthand how Don relies upon our military commanders in the field and at the Pentagon to make decisions about how best to complete these missions" of fighting terrorists while simultaneously transforming the military, Bush said. "Secretary Rumsfeld's energetic and steady leadership is exactly what is needed at this critical period. He has my full support and deepest appreciation."

The president's decision to interject himself so forcefully stands in contrast to his mild reaction to recent reports of dissatisfaction with Treasury Secretary John W. Snow and reflected a calculation by Bush and his advisers that attacks on Rumsfeld by prominent former military commanders strike at the heart of his presidency. As Bush's choice to run the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Rumsfeld serves as his proxy, and most of the judgments that have come under fire were shared by the president and Vice President Cheney as well.

Ibid

the clamour for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation has continued unabated. Now there are Eight generals openly calling for Donald Rumsfeld to resign. They include many leading light of the US general staff some of whom directly resigned rather than stay under Rumsfeld because they believe the failures in political strategy are making the war in Iraq unwinable.

Marine Lt. Gen. Paul K. Van Riper, Maj. Gen. John Batiste, Army Maj. Gen. John Riggs, 82nd Airborn Maj. Gen. Charles H Swannack Jr. Army General Anthony C. Zinni, Army General Eric Shinseki, Army Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, Marine Lieut. General Greg Newbold have all called now called on Rumsfeld to resign in less than a month.

TBA are already looking for his replacement but the job is a poison chalice certainly John McCain would be well advised to leave it well alone.

I think the better solution would be for the whole of TBA to resign. A fresh administration without all the failures and bagage of TBA could turn this situation around. One of the few great advantages of a democracy is that you can get rid of incompetant administrations.

Kind Regards Walker

[harley 3 1185 0]

As much as I would like to see George W. Bush and his entire cabinet resign, it's definately not going to happen.  No precedent, and in an election year to boot.

Not being critical, sarcastic, condescending or anything Walker, but how would you turn the situation around?  The Coalition's war in Iraq is finally winding down, but there'll probably be a bloody anticlimax.  A substantial force to train and equip the Iraqi forces is still needed in Iraq but will probably prove politically unacceptable to Democrats and Republicans, as well as Iraqis for that matter, alike.

The problem is, what part will Iraq play should the situation in Iran play out?  Will it be a "buffer" state to protect the so-called Moderate Arab oil states or will it be an almighty jumping off point for an incursion into Persia?  The Bush Administration no doubt has something godawful planned on Iran in light of the upcoming UN Security Council meeting.

3 years on now since the invasion of Iraq, I was rereading my copy of "Colossus" by Niall Ferguson, analysing the "American Empire" and how Iraq fit into US foreign policy.  Writing two years ago, not too long after the invasion, Ferguson wrote that America invaded Iraq and meant to leave as quickly as possible "and unlike every other power in history, America actually means it".  What can I say?  Mr Ferguson, a noted British historian now leaving in New York City, is a naive little ####.  Sure the troops and the supporters at home may want to leave quickly, but they're not the ones giving the orders.

[kavoven 4]

I hope my question isn't missplaced here, please tell me, if it is:

I'm refering to the current situation in Israel. The US made a new law, which forbids US people to trade with palestinians.

Why does russia suddenly stark supporting them?

[EiZei 0]

I hope my question isn't missplaced here, please tell me, if it is:

I'm refering to the current situation in Israel. The US made a new law, which forbids US people to trade with palestinians.

Why does russia suddenly stark supporting them?

There's a separate thread called "the middle east thread":

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=45634

[miles teg 1]

There are many many many solutions to the War in Iraq. Unfortunately none of them are acceptable to American politicians.

Possible Solutions:

1. Accept Saudi Arabia's proposed plan of replacing US forces with Muslim peacekeeping forces from countries that do not border Iraq. They would mainly be from Pakistan, Malaysia, and Indonesia. America and the EU would only assist in logistics such as air and sea transport.

2. Find out where the hell all the money is going for the Iraqi Army because right now, even their best unit, the Wolf Brigagde, does not have things like running water in their barracks. They have to buy their own body armor often because the crap they get issued is extremely poor quality.

Strong auditing coupled by an increase in their armored brigades would help alot. Other things necessary are modifications of their Russian made armor to withstand most RPG attacks. Slat armor and ERA on their BMP's, MTLB's, and T-55's would help tremendously.

They also need their own indigenous air support so that they don't need American assistance. Mi-24 Hind gunships would fit the bill perfectly.

3. Train the Iraqi Army as an Islamic force based up on Hadiths and other Islamic beliefs shared by Sunnis and Shi'a. This means instilling the belief into Iraqi Army soldiers that they are fighting for the unity of Muslims and against those who seek to divide Islam.

4. Conduct intensive psychological operations to delegitimize Al-Qaeda type "takfiri" ideologies using the mass media, internet, etc... and using charismatic Arab Islamic scholars who will use traditional Islam to discredit these terrorists but by using the same romantic, emotional aspects of their religion (backed by traditional interpretations). Our notions and of democracy and freedom also need to be promoted in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East within the context of Islam and using Islamic examples so as to show the Islamic world that we are not fighting to destroy Islam.

5. Have direct communications and dialog with terrorist groups to first learn about who these enemies are and then with that knowledge, try to change their attitudes and perceptions as well as to find areas where compromise is possible with them.

Sadly however, you never hear politicians talking about such ideas or who have any clue about Islam and Islamic based cultures.

Nevertheless possible solutions to the Iraqi problem and alternative methods of counter terrorism do exist outside of the current methods being used to fight terrorism and to fight the war in Iraq.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[punishment 1]

my only contribution to this thread wil be these words:iraq sucks

[Major Fubar 0]

my only contribution to this thread wil be these words:iraq sucks

These kind of immature comments add nothing to this debate, please refrain from making similar comments in the future...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

a very intense scene that I believe is worth watching. A group is hiding inside a [correction] tent while being under mortar attack! Dont expect any spectacular scenes..but still it is brutally honest.

This scene realy reminds me of narations of WWII, but despite high quality cameras, satelites and 24h coverage, I have never seen images like this of the war in iraq.

I get the impression, that even though I have seen all sort of brutal and bloody images of the war in iraq everything had been too sterile. As always an administration would want their people to see everything, may it be dead or alive, except, young soldiers fearing for their life. Cause that are the images that hurt most. Maybe these things dont happen every day to soldiers in iraq, but they do happen!

YOU TUBE (you need to register, but I guess all of you have done so already)

Otherwise, YOuTUBE gave a secondary link here

http://videosift.com/story.php?id=1254

[walker 0]

Hi Albert

Iminent death or mainming is the same for any one. I have heard the same reactions from people climbing who get them selves in the sh*t and know of others where it was that fear that killed them, it makes you loose hope when what you should really do is calm down and get your self out of the shit. I have rescued several people when they were in that situation in many cases it was just down to talking them down and helping them cope with the fear.

Of course fear is worse when you can not do anything about it as in the case with your film. The adrenealin pumps and speeds up your reaction and your perception of time is altered to seem slower, because it has no outlet for the adrenalin your body shakes under the surges of it.

I was camping in a valley in eastern Turkey while treking near a place called Uzongul when a nutter in the next tent fired a full clip out of a forty five over the top of our tent in the middle of the night. I shook like a leaf for 10 minutes solid as we had no weapon to hand to defend ourselves and were stuck blind inside our tent unable to see where the nutter was or what he was up to. Those minutes seemed like hours.

Your mind adds to the fear and makes up stories to explain it. In my case I thought the nutter had offed his mates in the night and was going to come kill us in our tent, yet I do not know what he was doing or why he did it but your mind tries to rationalise it.

I know he was drunk on raki as we had all had a drink around the campfire which was where I saw his pistol he was very proud of it it was all engraved he said he was a police man (whether he was or not I do not know)

We quietly packed the tent from the inside at 4 in the morning and ran off to a new campsite near a local hotel.

As a climber and while working as an instructer I have come to know fear quite well and over the years have leaned to deal with it but I still find rockfall and avalanches terifying.

It is just as with those guys with the mortar when there is nothing you can do and you just have to wait that is fear at its worst, when your fate is completly out of your hands. People react in different ways: some scream, others pray, some freeze, some run, I swear a lot and shake.

Like I say I know how they feel. Since the video is available I think they probably made it out of that one but it is the nature of the Iraq war that many both Iraqi and coalition will not.

Fear of death or maiming cannot though play any part in the decisions affecting why the coalition is there.

Kind Regards walker

[EiZei 0]

Apparently the average lifetime of a new iraqi PM is less than a year so far. Not that this is anything new, pre-saddam republican Iraq PMs had a pretty similar turnover rate too.

If the wikipedia article is anything reliable this new guy (Jawad al-Maliki) has'nt excatly been making too many friends among the sunnis either.

[miles teg 1]

If they were in a single story structure they were probably in danger, but if they were in a multi-story structure the danger was probably minimal depending on the size of the mortars hitting...but what was wierd is that they were there next to a doorway which was kinda stupid.  I would have kicked their asses for being so close to a doorway.  They also should have had sandbags along the inner walls to help reduce the chances of shrapnel penetrating the walls.  

In a situation like that it helps tremendously to have a strong leader who appears to show no fear even though afterwards he may have pissed himself or throws up and gets the shakes afterwards.

But of coarse its easy to say that.  Ultimately one never knows how they will react in combat.  While I was in the US Army Reserve and had my fair share of emergency situations to handle, I fortunately never had to go into combat.  The closest I got was a near miss by terrorist attacks in 1997 where they machine gunned and grenaded a bus full of German men (from a football club if I remember correctly) in Cairo that they mistook for US military men (our tour bus).  My unit was made up of mostly Mexican-Americans and thus they thought we couldn't be Americans. lol   Sometimes its nice being brown.  lol

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>