The Iraq thread 4

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Ive read that sniper story before quicksand, but it had a bit about training himself via the use of Video games, i'm pretty sure it was bs.

[Crazysheep 1]

Quote[/b] ] it's not american time for posting on a forum

I think he meant at the time of Walker posting Americans would be in bed or something.

[Akira 0]

Actually it woulda been late morning early afternoon for us. Least it was 2pm for me it was posted.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Hand-to-hand horror

Herald Sun ^ | 12th December 2004

A BRITISH soldier who led a perilous bayonet charge on rebels in Iraq has revealed details of bloody hand-to-hand fighting in enemy trenches.

Corporal Mark Byles, 34, who will receive a bravery award for his service in Iraq, spoke publicly for the first time this week of the battle that left three heavily armed insurgents dead.

Cpl Byles, of Portsmouth, England, said: "I slashed people, rifle-butted them. I was punching and kicking. It was either me or them.

"It felt like I was in a dream. It didn't seem real. Anybody can pull a trigger from a distance, but I got up close and personal."

The trench battle ended with three Iraqis dead and eight captured.

Cpl Byles, who entered the trench with four other British soldiers, shot and killed two more insurgents who were firing from a second position.

On May 14, his battalion, known as the Tigers, was deployed to assist ambushed troops near a checkpoint on the main road between Basra and Baghdad.

When the squad's Warrior armoured vehicle was attacked, the corporal and another soldier jumped clear.

They immediately came under small arms fire and grenades. After linking up with four comrades, Cpl Byles identified the enemy in a drainage ditch about 200 metres away.

He said: "I decided the best way to attack was a full-frontal assault. It was my decision to fix bayonets."

It marked the first time British soldiers had gone into battle with bayonets since the Falklands War in 1982. His surprise order horrified his own men.

Cpl Byles, who has a six-year-old son, said: "They were under the impression we were going to lie in our ditch, shoot the enemy from a distance and they would run away.

"But I believe we caught the enemy on the hop that day and we had to take the fight to them."

As they stormed the ditch, Cpl Byles saw about a dozen rebels with weapons.

He said: "The look on their faces was utter shock." The 1st Battalion squad, the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment, quickly overcame the insurgents. Only when the adrenalin stopped pumping and grisly reality kicked in did Cpl Byles realise the horror of what had occurred.

He said: "The worst thing was collecting the dead, seeing the damage that I did to those people. Lots of our guys were just 18 or 19 and I had to tell them to treat the bodies like bits of meat, not human beings.

"I got back to camp after six hours on the ground, covered in blood from head to toe. The first thing I did was pull out a photo of my family."

The corporal, who estimated he killed between 15 and 20 insurgents in Iraq, revealed he was still haunted by the faces of the dead.

According to British Army estimates, about 30 rebels died at the checkpoint named Danny Boy, which is 15km south of the lawless town of Al Amarah. The British troops came out of the gunfight almost unscathed.

Cpl Byles has been recommended for a bravery award for his part in the skirmish by platoon commander Lt Ben Plenge, who said: "He showed immense professionalism under fire, bravery in the face of the enemy and strong leadership qualities."

The corporal, who denied he was a hero, said: "I have been an infantry soldier for 13 years. I've done it time and again in training -- it was second nature. I'm just glad I did my job."

The regiment has returned to Britain after seven months in Iraq, where they were attacked 863 times, lost two soldiers and suffered 42 injuries.

[Wilco 944]

The chilling toll of Allah's sniper

never knew Pepsi was a great drink, especially for hardcore muslims who despise western influence. i think this story is a BS.

It was proven to be quite so on another forum, I'll see if I can dig it up.

U.S. Army/Marine snipers don't travel alone, so I'm doubting the part about him killing a sniper is true, and why would a soldier piss on top of a Bradley Fighting Vehicle in an area where they have been under constant fire?

Smells like BS, and no, not because I'm from America, but because so many parts of this story smell horrid of BS.

[quicksand 0]

The chilling toll of Allah's sniper

never knew Pepsi was a great drink, especially for hardcore muslims who despise western influence. i think this story is a BS.

I've seen pictures of an insurgent from Fallujah wearing a Manchester United t-shirt

I really don't see how some sheiks we know nothing about who were drinking Pepsi is proof that this strory is BS.

[theavonlady 2]

Pepsi happily boycotted Israel until the 80's, while Coke has had a plant in Bnei Brak, Israel, for decades. Common knowledge around these parts that Arabs promote Pepsi over Coke for this reason.

[theavonlady 2]

mi8 shot down killing nine

Quote[/b] ]Video Purports to Show Crewman's Killing

By MAAMOUN YOUSSEF, Associated Press Writer

Thu Apr 21, 8:24 PM ET

In an Internet video, a man purported to be the sole survivor of a helicopter shot down in  Iraq on Thursday was helped to his feet by gunmen who found him lying in the grass. Moments later they killed him in a spray of bullets, shouting "Allahu akbar," or "God is great."

The video was posted on a Web forum used by Islamic militants. It was accompanied by a written statement from a group identifying itself as the Islamic Army in Iraq. The statement claimed responsibility for the downing of the civilian helicopter carrying security contractors in which 11 people — Americans, Bulgarians and Fijians_ were killed.

There was no independent confirmation of the video's authenticity. It showed very little editing and bore the clumsy handiwork of an amateur cameraman. Wreckage visible in the video resembles that seen in aftermath footage filmed by various news outlets at the crash site north of Baghdad.

The video begins with an unseen cameraman breathing heavily and running with the camera toward burning wreckage. Two bodies are visible, one of them severely charred, nearly all its clothes burned away.

"Look at that filth," someone says in Arabic at the sight of the body. There are brief glimpses of a man carrying an assault rifle along with the cameraman.

The scene moves to tall grass, where a man with thinning, gray hair and wearing a blue flight suit is lying on his back, the right side of his head bloody.

"Stand up! Stand up!" the cameraman shouts to him in English.

"I can't, it's broken. Give me a hand," the survivor says in accented English, raising his hands for help. "Give me your hand," he repeats.

It appears the militants help pull him to his feet. "Weapons?" the gunmen shout at him in Arabic.

The cameraman tells the crewman, whose face is visible, to step back.

"Go! Go!" he shouts.

The survivor then tries to walk, limping with his back to the insurgents, who then say something to him that makes him turn around. He raises his hands to somebody off camera as if gesturing to them to stop what they are about to do.

The militants open fire, continuing to shoot him after he fell to the ground as someone shouts "Allahu Akbar."

The Bulgarian-owned helicopter was carrying six American security contractors who worked as bodyguards for U.S. diplomats. Its three crew members were Bulgarian, and two other passengers were Fijian helicopter security guards.

It appears the man shot in the video was one of the Bulgarians.

In their Web statement, the Islamic Army in Iraq said it killed the surviving crewman "in revenge for the Muslims killed in the mosques of Fallujah." It was apparently referring to the shooting by an American soldier of a wounded Iraqi in a Fallujah mosque on Nov. 13 during a U.S. offensive in the city.

[Acecombat 0]

I dont know avon i've heard of rumours of PEPSI actually being very pro-israeli .

LIKE:

PEPSI = Pay Each Penny Save Israel.

I dont know who made that up but i've heard it many times around here from my time as a kid. Never got around to knowing if that silly acronym was correct or not.

[bucket man 2]

That story sounds BS in other ways than sheiks drinking pepsi...

Maybe its just exaggarated (sp?) to make a more striking story but I think the story sounds made up in some parts like the soldier urinating from his bradley.

[SFWanabe 0]

And anyway what is the relation between BIS and this "politic unilateral way of mind" thread ?

Only sexfrustrated teenagers are reading this forum anyway (maybe a personnal opinion).

So your a sexfrustrated teenager too? God I thought I was the only one. LMFAO

[Acecombat 0]

Did any of you see that video of the Mi-8 (was it?) being shot down. Its pretty shocking , kinda ofp'ish in a way too it looked too simple the way they took it down. Maybe the chopper didnt have any flares or anything and was easy prey along with the fact that it was flying too low for comfort.

[ralphwiggum 6]

The chilling toll of Allah's sniper

never knew Pepsi was a great drink, especially for hardcore muslims who despise western influence. i think this story is a BS.

I've seen pictures of an insurgent from Fallujah wearing a Manchester United t-shirt  

I really don't see how some sheiks we know nothing about who were drinking Pepsi is proof that this strory is BS.

there is different cultural meaning attached. sodas are considered western evil in some nations, while a MU t-shirt is about soccer, and nothing more.

[Tovarish 0]

Maybe the chopper didnt have any flares or anything and was easy prey along with the fact that it was flying too low for comfort.

Flares won't do much good against an RPG

[miles teg 1]

That story is bullshit about the sniper. If he was doing counter-sniping from within a building, he wouldn't have needed the dummy head. It was common for snipers in Chechnya to fire not from a window, but from farther inside a dark room where Russian snipers couldn't see them. Hence the reason for Russian AAA tanks being used as part of mechanized assault teams due to their high angle of fire and their HE rounds fired from their automatic cannons that are highly effective in sniper suppression.

But the main thing that made me realize it was bullshit is when he talked about killing over 1,000 meters with a SVD sniper rifle. If you look at any legit source on the Dragunov SVD sniper rifle, most who have shot it agree that it is not a true sniper rifle and is only accurate out to around 600 meters. In the right hands the SVD rifle is a serious threat. Even 300 meters still at the far end of most infantry engagments and is not exactly close. At that distance, a SVD equipped sniper could quite easily hit a target and escape without being detected. But even at that distance headshots would be difficult due to the MOA of the SVD (which if I remember is similar to a standard M16A2). So regardless of how good the sniper is he would have a difficult time either making headshots or hitting a target in the areas not protected by ceramic plates.

In fact the story does not even address body armor. The interceptor vests, with ceramic plates, if I remember correctly are rated at protecting up against 7.62x54mm rounds.

The story does also not address using any form of special ammunition.

But the real thing that exposes this story as a fake is how the sniper says that he watches the targets fall and die. Anyone who has ever fired a high caliber scoped rifle knows that you DO NOT see the bullet hit the target when you fire due to the heavy recoil of the weapon unless the target clearly visible with the naked eye and the shooter quickly opens his non-firing eye to see the target fall. That is why, at least with US snipers, they are paired with a spotter with binoculars who works with the sniper in getting the range to the target and in confirming his kills while also providing extra security.

So while for certain militants in Iraq are definitely more and more equipping themselves with sniper rifles of various types, and while these certainly are a BIG threat, stories like this are most definitely bullshit stories that are greatly exaggerated.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

Anways back to the point of this part of the thread concerning this woman who died.  I really fail to see what Billybob and AL's intentions are.    First they seem to dispise this woman, then they don't.

I have not switched opinions at any point here. For the last time, from a previous post of mine, many pages back:

Quote[/b] ]

EDIT: Let me sum up by linking to an article whose title conveys what I agree with: Let Us Not Speak Ill of the Dead But Let Us Speak Accurately.

Capite?

No no capite.

That blog has a bunch of different views. Do you agree with the first post that basically villifie this woman? If so then just say so.

I responded to those allegations made by that first post of the blog but you didn't respond to those and instead just kept on repeating that you don't dispise this woman but that you don't like her either or something to that effect.

If you don't agree with what I said responding to this blog article then please don't hide behind this blog and state clearly why you support the allegations made on that blog.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]The militants open fire, continuing to shoot him after he fell to the ground as someone shouts "Allahu Akbar."

There are so many stories like this. When ever I hear the phrase "Allah Akbar" my mind clouds heavily with disgust and loathing.

Still I try not to lump all Muslims into a group. I keep telling my self that they aren't all like that. I just wonder how honest good Muslims feel about the whole "Allah Akbar" thing. As far as it goes for me, I associate "Allah Akbar" as the slogan of murderers and thugs, much like "Sig Heil" or "White Power" is for their respective groups. The thing deep down is that it isn't, Allah Akbar simply means "god is great". So basically you have these sociopath jerks all around the world who have hijacked the saying.

I don't know. Just thinking out loud, (rather I'm typing my thoughts as they come to me). Any one care to add your two cents?

[miles teg 1]

Yeah, most non-militant Muslims get disgusted at that also. However some moderate Muslims are indiffierent about it which kinda pisses me off.

The thing you have to realise is that "Allah Akbar" is said all the time by Muslims. They say it like Americans say, "God Damn it" or "Jusus Christ!" except Muslims say it both when good and bad things happen.

But yeah I agree, it is very revolting when they show some militants sawing off some poor guy's head as they scream "Allah Akbar". As far as I have studied Islam, I have not found any record of their prophet or of early Muslims sawing off the heads of prisoners with knives...especially not civilians. They cut off heads of murderers but that was done (and still is done in Saudi Arabia) with a big sharp sword with one clean blow.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD.

[FerretFangs 0]

perhaps they don't have any large swords available? You have to admit it's more revolting to see it done slow. That's the purpose of it.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]

Our Soldiers are Warriors, not Victims

By Owen and Bing West

The Hero as Predator, Not Victim

by Owen West and Bing West

The National Review

Outside Fallujah a year ago today, a small convoy was ambushed by fifty insurgents. A rocket-propelled grenade hit the first Humvee, robbing one Marine of his hands and raking the others with shrapnel. Machinegun fire swept the kill zone.

Captain Brent Morel was in the second Humvee. "Stop and dismount," was all he said before opening his door and sprinting off toward the ambush position. A small band of Marines followed him over two berms, splashing across a chest-deep canal as they closed on the ambushers.

As the surprised enemy broke, the Marines shot them down. It was the last time a large group of insurgents attacked an American convoy on that route with small arms, notwithstanding numerical advantage.

Twelve hours later, the casualty assistance teams were at the doorstep of Brent's widow, Amy, and his parents, Mike and Molly.

On a rooftop fight in Fallujah last year, Lance Corporal Carlos Gomez-Perez hurled grenades and manned a machinegun to drive back a band of insurgents. Once the roof was cleared, he walked down stairs pouring blood. An RPG had torn a chunk the size of a Coke can out of his shoulder.

"Sorry, sir," he mumbled to his lieutenant. "Mind if I take a break to get this patched up?"

The public image of the military is shaped by the press. No matter how laudatory the actions of a soldier, if the press ignores them, the public is not aware of them. Today’s battlefield elites are given scant focus by media elites. Last Monday, Sgt 1st Class Paul Ray Smith was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor, the nation’s highest military award, with little fanfare and media coverage that burned out in 24 hours. So whom are we celebrating?

In World War Two, the press were cheerleaders who shared a symbiotic relationship with the military. Gutsy warriors like Audie Murphy and “Pappy” Boyington were famous for their high kill totals. In Vietnam, the press soured on the effort, tied the troops to the policymakers and refused to laud aggressive soldiers. Instead, victims were accentuated. American prisoners of war—who were certainly brave—were the only acclaimed heroes. Rugged commando-types—just as brave—were ignored.

This was reflected in the wave of Vietnam movies that proliferated in the 1980s. In the four most popular movies—Rambo: First Blood Part II, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, and Casualties of War—two themes emerged: soldier as victim and soldier as criminal.

In Iraq, the most famous soldiers to emerge are PFC Jessica Lynch and PFC Lynndie England, a victim and criminal, respectively. Their public images are the offspring of Vietnam. Celebrity and cynicism have trumped achievement.

Habits die hard, for the press as well as for the rest of us. The disproportionate coverage of seven guards at Abu Ghraib and one quick-acting Marine in a mosque trumped the extraordinary victory won by thousands of Marines and soldiers in Fallujah, now one of the safest cities in the Sunni Triangle. The obsessive spotlight damaged the image of the American soldier at home while failing to assuage our detractors abroad. America is proud of its collective conscience, but self-flagellation has a deteriorating effect.

A nation's selection of its heroes is a reflection of its values. Jihadists like Zarqawi are not idealistic agrarian reformers. We are not a nation of victims. It's time the press made an effort to show the tough guys who fight for us.

They don't have to look far. One hundred and forty squads fought house to house in Fallujah last November. In the course of two weeks, on three separate occasions the average squad shot jihadists hiding in rooms waiting to kill an American and die. The average 19-year-old searched dozens of houses each day, knowing with certainty that he would open a door and someone would shoot at him, not once, but on three separate occasions. Fewer than one SWAT team in a hundred encounters determined suicidal shooters barricaded in a room. Our SWAT teams are dedicated and courageous and we have seen many deserved depictions of their bravery.

Surely the press can do more to bring alive for all of us the nature of the sacrifices, courage and, yes, ferocious aggression of our troops. The strength of our martial might is in our warriors more than in our weapons. It is time we understood why they are so feared. Our riflemen are not victims; they're hunters. Audie Murphy would be proud of Carlos Gomez-Perez, Brent Morel and Paul Ray Smith.

Owen West, a trader at Goldman, Sachs, served with the Marines in Iraq. Bing West, a former assistant secretary of defense, has written several books about combat. They are writing the screenplay entitled, No True Glory: the Battle for Fallujah

Argue, whine, whatever, I just post 'em.

[FerretFangs 0]

Thank you,Wilco.

That sounds like a movie I'd want to see.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Argue, whine, whatever, I just post 'em

Then your contribution is nill to this forum.In case you haven't noticeed we've all agreed that if someone quotes an entire article/stroy he is required to post his own opinions related to it.You just quoted a two page PR article,gave us no link and fail to realise we can all navigate the internet and acces sites,this thread is a ramp for discussion not for useless spam warnings such as "argue,whine..whatever, I just post 'em"

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]The militants open fire, continuing to shoot him after he fell to the ground as someone shouts "Allahu Akbar."

   There are so many stories like this. When ever I hear the phrase "Allah Akbar" my mind clouds heavily with disgust and loathing.

    Still I try not to lump all Muslims into a group. I keep telling my self that they aren't all like that. I just wonder how  honest good Muslims feel about the whole "Allah Akbar" thing. As far as it goes for me, I associate "Allah Akbar" as the slogan of murderers and thugs, much like "Sig Heil" or "White Power" is for their respective groups. The thing deep down is that it isn't, Allah Akbar simply means "god is great". So basically you have these sociopath jerks all around the world who have hijacked the saying.

     I don't know. Just thinking out loud, (rather I'm typing my thoughts as they come to me). Any one care to add your two cents?

Its just the inner conservative of your sneaking up on you here .

Tell me what would you feel if some KKK alike group yelled "Hail Jesus christ" and murders some guy , would you feel disgust for those words then? Something tell mes not!

Words are only words you can manipulate them anyway you want , these people (these ba*tards) who slaughter people like sheep/cows and yell Allah Akbar they might as well be yelling profanities and it wouldnt matter to me , hate the act and the people not what they are saying especially when what they are saying is completely out of context.

I feel disgusted at the fact they are using this as a PR factor to gain retards for their cause by making this whole murder look like some godly act of justice when it isnt.

'Allah Akbar' usually is used as a term in during prayers or when you see feel/see something which makes you praise GOD. Some people might use it more then often and uselessly as ive seen often.

It all depends on what you see it as in the end if you think its a phrase to be loathed because some retards say it when murdering someone you can do that or realize that the words true meaning are anything but related to some innocent persons murder.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Argue, whine, whatever, I just post 'em

Then your contribution is nill to this forum.In case you haven't noticeed we've all agreed that if someone quotes an entire article/stroy he is required to post his own opinions related to it.You just quoted a two page PR article,gave us no link and fail to realise we can all navigate the internet and acces sites,this thread is a ramp for discussion not for useless spam warnings such as "argue,whine..whatever, I just post 'em"

How is that useless spam quoting an article?  Fine, here's my opinion.

Good article.

Better?  My contribution is nill to this thread, not this forum.  If you've agreed, fine, but if the rule is not slate either, then there you go. I'm free to post an article as I please.  Bicker about how I'm still not following rules and how I have no contribution to this thread, I could care less.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military said Saturday it had detained six men suspected of shooting down a Russian-made helicopter carrying 11 civilians -- including six Americans -- north of Baghdad two days earlier.

An Iraqi civilian helped U.S. soldiers in Task Force Baghdad locate the suspects, who were apprehended at two houses Saturday afternoon, the military said in a statement. The military did not identify the suspects or specify where they were captured.

The Mi-8 helicopter was shot down about 12 miles north of Baghdad on Thursday. Two groups claimed responsibility for the attack and released video to back their claims.

The dead included six American bodyguards for U.S. diplomats, three Bulgarian crew members and two security guards from Fiji, officials said.

In one video, insurgents are seen capturing and shooting to death the lone survivor, identified as a Bulgarian pilot.

The Iraqi civilian told soldiers he knew where a blue pickup truck used in the attack was parked and led them to the site, the military said. When the soldiers reached the area, several other local residents confirmed the initial tip and showed them where the suspects lived, the statement said.

Bomb-making materials seized

Soldiers started to search two houses at 12:30 a.m. (4:30 p.m. EDT Friday). At the first house, three men were captured and bomb-making materials were seized. At the second house, three more suspects were detained, the military said.

All six men were taken into custody for questioning. No further information was released.

The aircraft was owned by Heli Air of Bulgaria and chartered by Toronto-based SkyLink Aviation Inc., according to SkyLink air operations manager Paul Greenaway. He said it was flying to Tikrit from Baghdad's heavily guarded Green Zone, home to Iraq's parliament and many diplomats.

The six Americans were employed by Blackwater Security Consulting -- a subsidiary of security contractor Blackwater USA of Moyock, N.C., which had four employees slain and mutilated by insurgents in Fallujah a year ago.

The U.S.-led coalition sent investigators Friday to the scene of the crash.

The remains of the six Americans, three Bulgarians and two Fijians killed were transported to Balad Air Base, and an aircraft recovery team from the 3rd Infantry Division was to move the wreckage to Baghdad International Airport for further inspection, the military said.

Video shows pilot

The first video begins with an unseen cameraman breathing heavily and running with the camera toward burning wreckage. Two bodies are visible, one of them severely charred, nearly all its clothes burned away.

“Look at that filth,” someone says in Arabic.

There are brief glimpses of a man carrying an assault rifle along with the cameraman.

The scene moves to tall grass, where a man with thinning, gray hair and wearing a blue flight suit is lying on his back, the right side of his head bloody. The helicopter’s three-man crew was Bulgarian, and it appeared that the man shot in the video was one of the crew.

“Stand up! Stand up!” the cameraman shouts to him in English.

“I can’t, it’s broken. Give me a hand,” the survivor says in accented English, raising his hands for help. “Give me your hand.”

It appears the militants help pull him to his feet.

“Weapons?” the gunmen shout at him in Arabic.

The cameraman tells the crewman, whose face is visible, to step back.

“Go! Go!” he shouts.

'Carry out God's verdict,' then shooting

The survivor then tries to walk, limping with his back to the insurgents, who say something to him that makes him turn around. He raises his hands to somebody off camera as if gesturing to them to stop what they are about to do.

“Carry out God’s verdict,” someone is heard saying, and the militants shoot the man at point-blank range, continuing even after he falls to the ground. One gunman shouts, “Allahu akbar!”

In their Web statement, the Islamic Army in Iraq said it killed the surviving crewman “in revenge for the Muslims killed in the mosques of Fallujah.” It apparently referred to the Nov. 13 shooting of a wounded Iraqi by an American soldier in a Fallujah mosque during a U.S. offensive in the city.

The chartered flight was believed to be the first civilian aircraft shot down in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion two years ago.

Security guards were bound for Tikrit

The six Americans were headed to Saddam Hussein’s hometown of Tikrit for a U.S. diplomatic security detail, their employer confirmed Friday.

The guards “were simply passengers. They were going to Tikrit to do their jobs,” said Blackwater Security Consulting spokesman Chris Bertelli. He declined to give details of the security detail in Tikrit, about 90 miles north of Baghdad.

The bodies of the men, who worked for Moyock-based Blackwater, were being transported back to the United States aboard military aircraft, Bertelli said.

A total of 11 people died in the helicopter crash about 12 miles north of Baghdad on Thursday, including three Bulgarian crew members and a pair of security guards from Fiji.

It was the bloodiest day of the Iraq conflict for Blackwater, which is employed by the U.S. government for tasks ranging from personal security for U.S. diplomats to protection for aid convoys.

From

Very quick response by the coalition, I'm glad to hear that they finally have some suspects in this, though I would rather seem them six feet under then awaiting trial.

Edit: Anyone know why it screws up?