The Iraq thread 4

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Argue, whine, whatever, I just post 'em

Then your contribution is nill to this forum.In case you haven't noticeed we've all agreed that if someone quotes an entire article/stroy he is required to post his own opinions related to it.You just quoted a two page PR article,gave us no link and fail to realise we can all navigate the internet and acces sites,this thread is a ramp for discussion not for useless spam warnings such as "argue,whine..whatever, I just post 'em"

How is that useless spam quoting an article?  Fine, here's my opinion.

Good article.

Better?  My contribution is nill to this thread, not this forum.  If you've agreed, fine, but if the rule is not slate either, then there you go. I'm free to post an article as I please.  Bicker about how I'm still not following rules and how I have no contribution to this thread, I could care less.

Let me explain how its useless.

People wanna know what you have to say on a certain subject thats what a 'forum' is for and not simply copy/pasting stuff from websites. We can all go and read stuff from any site there is no restriction. This thread is for exchange of views and not of articles written by someone else.

Would you ever wanna be part of a debate in which contestants simply quote articles from pre-written sources and have nothing to say for themselves?

You can quote articles no ones saying you dont , but do give us your thoughts too in the end after all your a member here and one can only otherwise guess what your motives are posting stuff here are? Putting articles and simply running away then without a saying is basically useless. It looks as if you wanna give us something to read on which you support but you yourself dont wanna get involved in it.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Argue, whine, whatever, I just post 'em

Then your contribution is nill to this forum.In case you haven't noticeed we've all agreed that if someone quotes an entire article/stroy he is required to post his own opinions related to it.You just quoted a two page PR article,gave us no link and fail to realise we can all navigate the internet and acces sites,this thread is a ramp for discussion not for useless spam warnings such as "argue,whine..whatever, I just post 'em"

How is that useless spam quoting an article?  Fine, here's my opinion.

Good article.

Better?  My contribution is nill to this thread, not this forum.  If you've agreed, fine, but if the rule is not slate either, then there you go. I'm free to post an article as I please.  Bicker about how I'm still not following rules and how I have no contribution to this thread, I could care less.

Let me explain how its useless.

People wanna know what you have to say on a certain subject thats what a 'forum' is for and not simply copy/pasting stuff from websites. We can all go and read stuff from any site there is no restriction. This thread is for exchange of views and not of articles written by someone else.

Would you ever wanna be part of a debate in which contestants simply quote articles from pre-written sources and have nothing to say for themselves?

You can quote articles no ones saying you dont , but do give us your thoughts too in the end after all your a member here and one can only otherwise guess what your motives are posting stuff here are? Putting articles and simply running away then without a saying is basically useless. It looks as if you wanna give us something to read on which you support but you yourself dont wanna get involved in it.

Got ya

Will do, quicksand's reply had a bad vibe to it, atleast yours didn't seem like it.

[Acecombat 0]

Mine probably has more . Seriously though we said the same thing , different words maybe.

Ontopic:

Carrying this situation in to perspective , do you guys think is it a good move to have private contractors (security ones like blackwater) even around in IRAQ? How much good of a PR image are they giving there ? So far i've seen negative results so far. Iraqis clearly arent pleased with American army hanging around let alone letting some civilian from america toting a gun around isnt gonna please them anymore infact it would piss them off even more. To them it looks like their country is anyones playground ,anyone can carry a gun and walk about displaying his power.

I reckon american army should provide security to private companies if they want too or else license Iraqi security or maybe some ME security agency , putting in american private security contractors is bad for PR.

An Iraqi civilian helped U.S. soldiers in Task Force Baghdad locate the suspects, who were apprehended at two houses Saturday afternoon, the military said in a statement. The military did not identify the suspects or specify where they were captured.

I wonder why didnt the civilians notify about the strike beforehand they probably knew what was happening but only decided to rat out afterwards. I guess inwards they also wanted the insurgents to take the heli down.

[Wilco 944]

I wonder why didnt the civilians notify about the strike beforehand they probably knew what was happening but only decided to rat out afterwards. I guess inwards they also wanted the insurgents to take the heli down.

The civilian helicopter posed no threat to the civilians, what would be the motive around this? Why not target a military helicopter that could pose more of a threat to them?

Weird reasons I presume.

[turms 0]

I wonder why didnt the civilians notify about the strike beforehand they probably knew what was happening but only decided to rat out afterwards. I guess inwards they also wanted the insurgents to take the heli down.

The civilian helicopter posed no threat to the civilians, what would be the motive around this? Why not target a military helicopter that could pose more of a threat to them?

Weird reasons I presume.

Mercs are not civilians.

[Wilco 944]

I wonder why didnt the civilians notify about the strike beforehand they probably knew what was happening but only decided to rat out afterwards. I guess inwards they also wanted the insurgents to take the heli down.

The civilian helicopter posed no threat to the civilians, what would be the motive around this?  Why not target a military helicopter that could pose more of a threat to them?

Weird reasons I presume.

Mercs are not civilians.

Was the helicopter owned by Blackwater?

[turms 0]

No, but it was contracted by US DOD.

[FerretFangs 0]

Mi-8's are also used by the CIA, and other secret agencies in Afghanistan, and other hot spots. It's possible that the "Blackwater" operators were CIA or something else, working undercover. There were also some Pakistani nationals aboard as well. It smells of a CIA op gone horribly wrong.

One of the reasons why the civilains didn't rat the insurgents out beforehand, is simply because they didn't know what was going on? Maybe they happened to be in the wrong place at the right time?

And maybe they were completely disgusted by the whole affair, and didn't waste any time pointing out the perpatrators? Isn't that even slightly possible? Jeez.

[Wilco 944]

Mi-8's are also used by the CIA, and other secret agencies in Afghanistan, and other hot spots. It's possible that the "Blackwater" operators were CIA or something else, working undercover. There were also some Pakistani nationals aboard as well. It smells of a CIA op gone horribly wrong.

One of the reasons why the civilains didn't rat the insurgents out beforehand, is simply because they didn't know what was going on? Maybe they happened to be in the wrong place at the right time?

And maybe they were completely disgusted by the whole affair, and didn't waste any time pointing out the perpatrators? Isn't that even slightly possible? Jeez.

Or maybe because the insurgents were in the area beforehand and the civies felt threatened due to their presence? Then after they packed up and left, the civilians came out.

We don't know the story, we can only guess.

[FerretFangs 0]

No, I could buy that story as well. But either make more sense than,

Quote ]"I wonder why didnt the civilians notify about the strike beforehand they probably knew what was happening but only decided to rat out afterwards. I guess inwards they also wanted the insurgents to take the heli down."

[/b].

But you are correct, we can only guess what the real story was. The important thing is;

A.) There was a tragedy (from my perspective.)

And B.) the bastards are going to wish they'd died during childbirth after we get done with them.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]I wonder why didnt the civilians notify about the strike beforehand they probably knew what was happening but only decided to rat out afterwards. I guess inwards they also wanted the insurgents to take the heli down

Or the 6 suspects could have nothing to do with the incident and they could have been cought in the middle of some score settling between Shia and Sunni famillies,this in turn is one of the most acknowledged causes for Iraqis being turned in to US forces.

[turms 0]

Remember those supposed hostages reportedly held a few days ago?

Quote[/b] ]Dozens of Bodies Found in Tigris River

1 hour, 48 minutes ago Middle East - AP

By ALEXANDRA ZAVIS, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - For days, Iraq was shaken by claims that Sunni Muslim militants had abducted as many as 100 Shiites from an area at the tip of Iraq's "Triangle of Death."

Shiite leaders and government officials warned of a major sectarian conflict, only to see the reports evaporate when Iraqi security forces swept through the area and found no hostages.

But on Wednesday Iraq's interim president said he had proof of the abductions: 50 bodies recovered from the Tigris River.

And northwest of Baghdad, witnesses said 19 bullet-riddled bodies were found slumped against a bloodstained wall in a soccer stadium in Haditha.

The discoveries came as insurgents unleashed a string of attacks that killed at least nine Iraqis and wounded 21. They included four suicide car bombs — one of which targeted interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's convoy — and a roadside explosion in the capital, police said. Allawi escaped unharmed, his spokesman said.

Yes, we remember them;

Quote[/b] ]Senior police officials at the regional headquarters for the area gave a detailed breakdown of when the bodies had been found.

They said they had started to appear in the al-Suwayra stretch of the Tigris nearly two months earlier, on 27 February. On the first three days, 27 bodies were retrieved, while during and after the supposed hostage crisis only six corpses were pulled from the river.

But in the 26 days between 26 March and 20 April, there was a steady flow of cadavers. A total of 33 were retrieved during that period, an average of just over one a day.

BBC

[walker 0]

Ah Cack

This looks more and more like the situation is degenerating into the doomsday scenario of a civil war in Iraq that will totaly destabalise the middle east.

People realy need to take hold of this situation.

Worried walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Inspectors Find No Proof Iraq Hid Weapons in Syria

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S.-led group that scoured Iraq for weapons of mass destruction has found no evidence Iraq hid such weapons in Syria before the U.S. invasion in March 2003, according to a final report on the investigation.

The 1,700-member Iraq Survey Team, responsible for the weapons hunt, also said in a report released late on Monday it found no Iraqi officials with direct knowledge of a transfer of weapons of mass destruction developed by former President Saddam Hussein.

President Bush and other U.S. officials cited a grave threat posed by Iraq's chemical and biological weapons and Baghdad's efforts to acquire a nuclear arms capability as a justification for war. No such weapons were found but U.S. officials said it was possible Saddam sent them to Syria for safekeeping.

The report is the final addendum to the investigators' September report that concluded prewar Iraq had no WMD stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons and that its nuclear program had decayed before the U.S.-led invasion.

The Iraq Survey Group, led by CIA special adviser Charles Duelfer, wrapped up its physical searches for weapons of mass destruction last December.

The new report posted on the CIA Web site said: "Based on evidence available ... it is unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place. However ISG was unable to rule out unofficial movement of limited WMD-related materials."

It said investigators "found no senior policy, program or intelligence officials who admitted any direct knowledge of such movement of WMD."

"Indeed, they uniformly denied any knowledge of residual WMD that have been secreted to Syria," the report said.

The report said the WMD investigation had gone as far as feasible and there was no reason to continue holding many of the Iraqis who had been detained in the process.

"After more than 18 months, the WMD investigation and debriefing on the WMD-related detainees has been exhausted," the report said.

It noted there was a risk some Iraqi scientists might share their skills with insurgents or terrorists. The report added the pool of scientists who still possessed potentially dangerous expertise was shrinking.

Time to send some of the people who got imprisoned on the WMD issue to Gitmo, right ?

I hope all the people who claimed that Iraq hid it´s NBC weapons elsewhere read this....

CIA addendum to WMD report

[EiZei 0]

Yet another BS excuse down, n+1 more to go..

[miles teg 1]

It doesn't matter. Like Bush said, the American people must have faith in him, faith in Jesus and faith that the WMD's are there in Iraqi, in Syria...or maybe....IRAN!

But then again Iran has known WMD's and known nuclear weapons programs since the 80's (if not earlier), so no need to fabricate intel there.

We just need TEAM AMERICA to go in and get the bad guys in Iran. The ruling Shi'a clerics of Iran even wear black turbans which proves they are bad guys. Plus Bush said they were part of the AXIS OF EVIL. I think thats enough proof for the American people.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Akira 0]

Saw an interesting report on CBS News last night about just one aspect of $$$ cost for the war.

They visited one of the 5 repair depots in the States repairing and overhauling equipment. Outside the repair building was just row upon row of knocked out hummer, M2, and M1. The plant manager stated that normally they do work in the millions and for the first time, this year they will do work in the billions. The plant is working 24hours a day...and this is just one of them.

CBS made a nice note that this was against an enemy that's most sophisticated weapon is an RPG.

It ended with the startling note, that if the war ended right now, and no more equipment was damaged, it would take 2 years of 24 hour operations for the plants to catch up to the backlog.

[Wilco 944]

Saw an interesting report on CBS News last night about just one aspect of $$$ cost for the war.

They visited one of the 5 repair depots in the States repairing and overhauling equipment. Outside the repair building was just row upon row of knocked out hummer, M2, and M1. The plant manager stated that normally they do work in the millions and for the first time, this year they will do work in the billions. The plant is working 24hours a day...and this is just one of them.

CBS made a nice note that this was against an enemy that's most sophisticated weapon is an RPG.

It ended with the startling note, that if the war ended right now, and no more equipment was damaged, it would take 2 years of 24 hour operations for the plants to catch up to the backlog.

War is a costly thing in all aspects of life.

Wish I would have caught that, sounded good. You must admit, uparmored vehicles are saving lives.

[Akira 0]

The report also mentioned that the M2 was having to be repaired at alarming rates just from the fact they are being used much more than they were designed, and for missions that they weren't designed for.

It showed the machine shop that was just handling re-doing M2 treads, and re-rubberizing part of their treads. There were a lot of treads.

[Warden 0]

They are also being used in an enviroment they wherent designed for as well, the Abrahms was designed for use in Europe against russian armour, it was never designed for use in a desert hence all the modifications after the first Gulf War, and it was never designed for use in an urban envirment hence the TUSK upgrade.

Those Tracks would last much longer out of sand trust me.

Anyone see the News cast about the first Iraqi Special froces raid btw?

[Harnu 0]

It doesn't matter. Like Bush said, the American people must have faith in him, faith in Jesus and faith that the WMD's are there in Iraqi, in Syria...or maybe....IRAN!

Clearly they were exported to Iran. The countries are so similiar! Iraq Iran. They're in cahoots!

And from there the WMD's very easily got shipped elsewhere too. They made their way to North Korea, but had to make a pitstop in China on the way there. China then mass produced them and sold them back to Syria, Iran, North Korea, and Ikea for 50% off!

Anyway, to the reason why I came to this thread.

I have to write an eight page essay. I chose the topic on "How Operation Iraqi Freedom has changed U.S. Military strategy". Now, I have about a page of notes on lessons learned and equipment improvments and ways they were employed. All of these notes came pretty much from the top of my head. So I was wondering if any of you would like to toss a couple things to me via PM on things you think the U.S. Military will do different now as a result of OIF. If your reasons are the same as mine, then I know I'll have some good coverage for that piece, and it wouldn't hurt to get some more ideas into this paper.

Thanks in advance to anyone who helps!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I told you (bals) not to rush to judgement....

And as the latest news show it´s just another US military investigation stunt as it seems. The two Italian officials that participated in the investigation refused to sign the US military investigational report. Surprising ?

So maybe it´s you who shouldn´t rush to conclusions billybob.

Anger as US troops cleared of shooting

Quote[/b] ] THE Italian hostage shot by US troops after a daring rescue in Baghdad last month has condemned the American investigators for clearing their soldiers of blame for the attack, in which an Italian agent was killed.

"This is an unacceptable slap in the face for Italy," Giuliana Sgrena said yesterday. "It is worse than I imagined.

"At the beginning, the Americans spoke of an accident, and even apologised. But now they are ruling out any responsibility, saying the soldiers were following the rules of engagement."

Ms Sgrena, a journalist with the left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto, was shot and injured by US troops at a military checkpoint outside Baghdad airport on March 4.

Italian government agents had just freed her from Iraqi insurgents, who had held her hostage for a month.

Ms Sgrena's liberator, Italian agent Nicola Calipari, was shot dead as he shielded her from the US gunfire, and another agent driving the car was injured in the attack.

Italy is refusing to endorse the findings of the joint US-Italian inquiry into the shooting, news agencies reported from Washington yesterday.

"The US is ready to release the report but Italy has more questions," an official said.

He said the US and Italian sides disputed the speed at which the Italian car was approaching the US checkpoint when it was attacked.

The US troops have claimed the Toyota Corolla was speeding, but the Italians insist the car was travelling at less than 50km/h. The investigators also disagreed over communications between Italian and US officials before the shooting. A US army official said: "The soldiers were all complying with the standard operating procedures for those checkpoints and therefore were not culpable of dereliction of duty in following their procedures."

Bowing to strong protests from the Italian Government, the Pentagon agreed to let two Italian officials take part in its military inquiry into the shooting last month.

But news that the Italians are refusing to sign off on the report poses a new diplomatic dilemma for the two allies.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is facing growing public pressure to withdraw Italy's 3300 troops from Iraq.

US ambassador to Italy Mel Sembler was summoned to a crisis meeting last night with the Prime Minister's under-secretary, Gianni Letta, and the director of Italy's Sismi secret service, Niccolo Pollari.

Ms Sgrena yesterday insisted the US soldiers had opened fire on the car without warning, aiming at the occupants and not the engine as the Pentagon initially claimed.

"I saw the face of the soldier who shot me, but I won't be satisfied to see him punished," she said. "I believe the responsibility must be sought higher up, because they killed one of Italy's best intelligence agents and must be held accountable."

The obvious thing with military investigations about actions that happened throughout an operation that is highly disputed, even in the US, is that they will never be neutral. Such incidents should be investigated by outsiders and not the same organization that could be held responsible for such wrongdoings. It´s just a logical matter.

Now there are indications that the investigation results are obviously not accepted by the Italian officials, as they don´t want to sign it.

So I´m still sitting here, waiting for the truth and know nothing more than right after the incident.

I´m still not saying that this side or that side did wrong, it could be a mixture of it all, as I already said, but the findings of the investigation are obviously not comprehensive nor complete.

Ah and no, Italy is no euro commie, they are allies in Iraq. Don´t forget that...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]And as the latest news show it´s just another US military investigation stunt as it seems. The two Italian officials that participated in the investigation refused to sign the US military investigational report. Surprising ?

So maybe it´s you who shouldn´t rush to conclusions billybob.

erm...taken from my old post soon after the article was posted:

Quote[/b] ]MPH is the only problem

Again, it is the MPH that is the problem in which I already posted. The article gives the illusion that they agree with majority of findings.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s funny that the italian investigators weren´t even granted access to the car. Doh, well. As I already posted a while ago, I guess we will never hear the real truth about what was all behind that incident. I´ve read a timeline lately, that showed that italian authorities indeed informed the US about their transport and the person they are carrying, but I also do distrust Italian authorities about that. I can remember several italian soldiers who died because of malaria and the official italian government position was quite different on that...

[billybob2002 0]

It´s funny that the italian investigators weren´t even granted access to the car. Doh, well. As I already posted a while ago, I guess we will never hear the real truth about what was all behind that incident. I´ve read a timeline lately, that showed that italian authorities indeed informed the US about their transport and the person they are carrying, but I also do distrust Italian authorities about that. I can remember several italian soldiers who died because of malaria and the official italian government position was quite different on that...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4489217.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Iraq death car arrives in Italy

Bullet marks may help clarify what happened

The car in which an Italian secret agent died shielding a hostage from US "friendly fire" in Iraq has arrived in Italy for investigators to inspect.

An Italian air force cargo plane delivered the Toyota Corolla to a base near Rome days after reports suggested America had cleared its soldiers.

Rome is still investigating the death of agent Nicola Calipari, who died as his car approached a US checkpoint.

Prosecutors are due to examine the car at the Practica di Mare air base, the Associated Press news agency reports.

Testimony from Ms Sgrena, a journalist for communist newspaper Il Manifesto, and a second intelligence agent who also survived, appears to conflict with what US soldiers said about the shooting.

Analysis of bullet damage to the vehicle is expected to provide key data on how close the soldiers were to the car and from what angle they fired.

The Italians had been heading for Baghdad airport after Ms Sgrena's liberation.