The Iraq thread 4

[miles teg 1]

Keep in mind what happened to Germany after WWI after victimized countries of that war decided to try and force Germany to pay for its crimes and dammages to their countries.

While its nice in the short term, its not in the long term. Giving money to tortured soldiers would open the doors for thousands of people tortured by Saddam's regime and would open the door for hundreds if not thousands of Iraqis who claimed they were tortured by American soldiers or soldiers from the current Iraqi government.

There is no way the US government or the courts will allow this to happen. They may however decide to quietly have the current Iraqi government make a secret out of court settlement of a few million $$ with these captured soldiers and airmen.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....6041555

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON, (AFP) - Four security guards have claimed that their former employer, hired by the US government, has arbitrarily killed Iraqi civilians, a local news report said.

"These aren't insurgents that we're brutalizing," retired Army Ranger captain Bill Craun told NBC News.

"It was local civilians on their way to work. It's wrong."

Craun and three others said their former employer, Custer Battles, allowed heavily armed guards to roam Iraq brutalizing civilians, while they were supposed to be guarding supply convoys from rebels.

Custer Battles was one subject of a hearing Monday by Democratic lawmakers into allegations of corruption in Iraq.

A lawyer representing former employees told the senators the firm had received millions of dollars for work not done because of the owners' connections with the Republican Party.

The four former employees told NBC that their convoys fired on Iraqi pedestrians and crushed children with a truck.

The US Army is looking into the allegations, NBC said.

The men claimed that on November 8, a Kurd guard traveling with them fired into a passenger car to move traffic out of the way.

He "sighted down his AK-47 and started firing," former army corporal Ernest Colling told NBC.

The bullet "went through the window. As far as I could see, it hit a passenger. And they didn't even know we were there."

Colling said that later day, an Iraqi teenager walking on the roadside was shot.

"The rear gunner in my vehicle shot him," Colling told NBC. "Unarmed, walking kids."

And a large Ford pickup truck crushed a smaller car with Iraqis inside.

"The front of the truck came down," Craun said.

"I could see two children sitting in the back seat of that car with their eyes looking up at the axle as it came down and pulverized the back."

Will Hough, a retired US Marine said it was unlikely that anyone survived.

"Probably not. Not from what I saw," Hough told NBC.

Colling and Craun told NBC that they quit immediately.

Retired sergeant Jim Errante said he quit after witnessing similar abuses on other occasions.

"I didn't want to be a witness to any of these, what could be classified as a warcrime," Errante told NBC.

The network said company officials denied the allegations, calling the four men "disgruntled" former employees.

The company's manager in Iraq, Paul Christopher, who told NBC "There has absolutely never been a case of anyone being hurt or killed to my knowledge, except for people who were actively engaged in shooting at us first."

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Colling said that later day, an Iraqi teenager walking on the roadside was shot.

"The rear gunner in my vehicle shot him," Colling told NBC. "Unarmed, walking kids."

Quote[/b] ]"I could see two children sitting in the back seat of that car with their eyes looking up at the axle as it came down and pulverized the back."

Will Hough, a retired US Marine said it was unlikely that anyone survived.

I find it hard to comment on this one because of the implication as for every such breakthrough case that gets to the media there are a hundread more with those involved to ashamed/afraid or deep in dirt to come clean.

Someone on this forum put it very well indeed:

"How low can you go"

[theavonlady 2]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....6041555

Quote[/b] ]The company's manager in Iraq, Paul Christopher, who told NBC "There has absolutely never been a case of anyone being hurt or killed to my knowledge, except for people who were actively engaged in shooting at us first."

Someone's lying. And I hope they find out fast who it is.

EDIT: For some reason I cannot explain, I've got MediaPlayer tuned to Radio Sawa, Iraq, for the moment. If only I could bellydance....................

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....6041555

Quote[/b] ]The company's manager in Iraq, Paul Christopher, who told NBC "There has absolutely never been a case of anyone being hurt or killed to my knowledge, except for people who were actively engaged in shooting at us first."

Someone's lying. And I hope they find out fast who it is.

true. however, funny point is that those who say we should respect servicemen/women now either has to accept that that is not uniformly the case. either the ex-employees are lying, or the company is.

Quote[/b] ]

EDIT: For some reason I cannot explain, I've got MediaPlayer tuned to Radio Sawa, Iraq, for the moment. If only I could bellydance....................

and I'm glad i don't have to see it in person. God Bless internet.

[theavonlady 2]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....6041555

Quote[/b] ]The company's manager in Iraq, Paul Christopher, who told NBC "There has absolutely never been a case of anyone being hurt or killed to my knowledge, except for people who were actively engaged in shooting at us first."

Someone's lying. And I hope they find out fast who it is.

true. however, funny point is that those who say we should respect servicemen/women now either has to accept that that is not uniformly the case. either the ex-employees are lying, or the company is.

Well, duh. Of course. What does that have to do with respecting servicepersons?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

EDIT: For some reason I cannot explain, I've got MediaPlayer tuned to Radio Sawa, Iraq, for the moment. If only I could bellydance....................

and I'm glad i don't have to see it in person. God Bless internet.

Where's my webcam?!

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]Fort Carson amputee returning to Iraq for second tour of duty

By NBC's Kevin Tibbles      

Created: 2/11/2005 2:57 PM MST - Updated: 2/11/2005 10:51 PM MST

FORT CARSON - A soldier from Fort Carson is about to do something no other soldier has done in recent history: return to the battlefield as an amputee.

Capt. David Rozelle lost one of his legs in Iraq a little more than a year ago. Now he's ready to be back in action, in charge of 205 troops.

"I want to be their commander, not a one-legged commander," says Rozelle.

He has gone through relentless training for a mission many thought he would never make.

"I looked down and there was just nothing," Rozelle says, recalling the moments after an anti-tank mine tore through his Humvee. He ended up losing his right leg, below the knee.

Since the injury, Rozelle has learned how to walk and run all over again with a prosthetic leg. The 32-year-old soldier also made a trip to Vail with fellow amputees, to learn how to ski.

He's now passed all the army's tests and is deemed fit for duty. He will be the first soldier amputee to return to the war zone in recent U.S. military history.

"This has been a difficult thing, I'm not going to lie about it," says Rozelle.

It would have been so easy to quit, he says. Except his wife Kim wouldn't hear of it.

"She was the one that said, 'Get off the couch. Get the mail.'"

"I didn't let him get away with too much because I didn't think it was healthy for him," says Kim Rozelle.

Young Forrest, just 18 months, is the other reason why Rozelle wasn't going to give up.

"How will my son perceive me in 30 years when he's a man?" Rozelle says he asked himself.

Rozelle is ready to admit that "to be back driving through the sand in a Humvee, I'm gonna have to summon up some courage."

Still, he says facing down his demons in the desert is vital. "You know, I left part of myself in Iraq. I'm not going back to retrieve a part of me that I lost, but it certainly brings full circle the healing process that I've been through."

Rozelle documents his physical and mental struggle in a new book, "Back in Action."

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]It would have been so easy to quit, he says. Except his wife Kim wouldn't hear of it.

"She was the one that said, 'Get off the couch. Get the mail.'"

Blow off their legs.

That's the trick!

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....6041555

Quote[/b] ]The company's manager in Iraq, Paul Christopher, who told NBC "There has absolutely never been a case of anyone being hurt or killed to my knowledge, except for people who were actively engaged in shooting at us first."

Someone's lying. And I hope they find out fast who it is.

true. however, funny point is that those who say we should respect servicemen/women now either has to accept that that is not uniformly the case. either the ex-employees are lying, or the company is.

Well, duh. Of course. What does that have to do with respecting servicepersons?

in this particular case, should we beleive the company's words or the veteran's words?

[theavonlady 2]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....6041555

Quote[/b] ]The company's manager in Iraq, Paul Christopher, who told NBC "There has absolutely never been a case of anyone being hurt or killed to my knowledge, except for people who were actively engaged in shooting at us first."

Someone's lying. And I hope they find out fast who it is.

true. however, funny point is that those who say we should respect servicemen/women now either has to accept that that is not uniformly the case. either the ex-employees are lying, or the company is.

Well, duh. Of course. What does that have to do with respecting servicepersons?

in this particular case, should we beleive the company's words or the veteran's words?

Believe?

It has to be investigated and immediately.

This has nothing to do with belief.

[theavonlady 2]

Wasn't sure which thread to post this on but I think it's OK here.

Does the name Scott Ritter ring a bell?

[denoir 0]

Wasn't sure which thread to post this on but I think it's OK here.

Does the name Scott Ritter ring a bell?

Not really surprising. Him going to work for Fox News.. now that would be surprising.

[Tovarish 0]

Not really surprising. Him going to work for Fox News.. now that would be surprising.

Be Amazed!

[korax 4]

Quote[/b] ]In the words of a Fox-Jazeera press release, "Hannity and Hussein" will be "a lively political discussion featuring Fox personality Sean Hannity, from the right, and deposed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, from his prison cell."

Please, please be joking.

[red oct 2]

Not really surprising. Him going to work for Fox News.. now that would be surprising.

Be Amazed!

that is a surprise:O

how did they ever managed to buy them out?

[Akira 0]

Oh please oh please tell me you all are just joking and you noticed the "Satire" part....

[billybob2002 0]

Oh please oh please tell me you all are just joking and you noticed the "Satire" part....

Quote[/b] ]Elsewhere, after Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) fainted during a speaking appearance in Buffalo, Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) wished her a slow and protracted recovery.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/02/17/rumsfeld.ap/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (AP) -- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld steadfastly declined Thursday to give Congress a public estimate of the size of the Iraqi insurgency.

Under persistent question from Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, Rumsfeld said the disorganized nature of the insurgency makes it difficult to pin down a reliable, specific estimate.

"They're not static. The numbers change," he told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "They're made up of different elements: criminals, Baathists, the former regime elements, the Zarqawi network and jihadists. Even though the jihadists are the smallest portion of them, they appear to us to be the most lethal."

Still, McCain pressed for numbers.

"Shouldn't the American people also know the size and shape and nature of the enemy that we're facing, since it's their sons and daughters who are going to serve?" he asked. Rumsfeld said it was not his place to declassify the estimates provided to him by intelligence services.

The defense secretary had refused Wednesday to give such an estimate to a House committee.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the Senate panel that although the numbers are uncertain, the military believes they have gauged their capabilities.

"They have a limited capacity," he said. They can conduct 50 to 60 attacks per day around the country, he said.

On Wednesday, before the House Armed Services Committee, Rumsfeld was quoted an estimate by an Iraqi official that there were as many as 40,000 insurgents and 200,000 part-time supporters in Iraq. He responded that was much higher than estimates of the Central Intelligence Agency and Defense Intelligence Agency, which also differ from one another.

"Frankly, I don't have a lot of confidence in any of them (estimates)," Rumsfeld said, declining to provide the CIA and DIA numbers.

Military officials estimate 15,000 insurgents have been killed or captured in Iraq.

<snip>

[Daddl 10]

Quote[/b] ]Murdoch added, "If we really roll up our sleeves and make this merger work, we may wind up with the fairest and most balanced network mankind has ever known.â€

Who can spot the contradiction?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Murdoch added, "If we really roll up our sleeves and make this merger work, we may wind up with the fairest and most balanced network mankind has ever known.â€

Who can spot the contradiction?  

man-kind.

[Tovarish 0]

Guess I should have put a or a or a in my post

[sputnik monroe 102]

.      Oh yeah Fox news they are so biased and awful. You should get your news from real fair and unbiased news sources like say Al-Jazeera and CNN.

   I seriously laugh out loud every time I read a post on this board containing the old "Fox is bad" cliché that usually follows up in the same breath  with "read my hot linked NYtimes article."  It's a hoot it really is.

     Face it you guys hate Fox because you were told to hate Fox news.  When it all comes down to it, Fox news isn't any more or less biased than any other "news" organization.

     I think the main reason Fox gets slammed so much is because they have a handful of right wing commentators, most notably Sean Hannity (who is balanced out by Alan Colmes). They have two other guys but I can't remember their names.  If they refused to have any right wing commentary programs and only showed left wing ones like every one else they would be accepted by the public as a whole.

      I find it difficult to believe that any of you can honestly claim CNN for example is an unbiased news source. Can you name me one right wing commentator on their channel? Hell any channel? The only one I can think of is that Scarborough guy on MSNBC. I can name hundreds of left wing commentators though.

     All that said I’m not a big Fox fan. I channel surf through all the news channels I have.  I just find it amusing how people have this rabid hatred of Fox news when the only thing different about Fox is the fact that it sort of isn’t an echo chamber (there are a few non left wing host on it).

[denoir 0]

That ooh, liberal media and ooh, conservative media - it's an internal American thing very few outside the US care about.

As an external observer I can note that CNN is most of the time shameless pro-US propaganda, but it tries to mask it a bit (not much though). The closest thing to FOX News is Soviet era Pravda publications. Very little difference in style.

I actually like FOX News as their propaganda pushes it to an absurd level making it amusing to watch. I think the only thing that today competes with it in not hiding bias are British tabloids.

[EiZei 0]

. Oh yeah Fox news they are so biased and awful. You should get your news from real fair and unbiased news sources like say Al-Jazeera and CNN.

I seriously laugh out loud every time I read a post on this board containing the old "Fox is bad" cliché that usually follows up in the same breath with "read my hot linked NYtimes article." It's a hoot it really is.

Face it you guys hate Fox because you were told to hate Fox news. When it all comes down to it, Fox news isn't any more or less biased than any other "news" organization.

I think the main reason Fox gets slammed so much is because they have a handful of right wing commentators, most notably Sean Hannity (who is balanced out by Alan Colmes). They have two other guys but I can't remember their names. If they refused to have any right wing commentary programs and only showed left wing ones like every one else they would be accepted by the public as a whole.

I find it difficult to believe that any of you can honestly claim CNN for example is an unbiased news source. Can you name me one right wing commentator on their channel? Hell any channel? The only one I can think of is that Scarborough guy on MSNBC. I can name hundreds of left wing commentators though.

All that said I’m not a big Fox fan. I channel surf through all the news channels I have. I just find it amusing how people have this rabid hatred of Fox news when the only thing different about Fox is the fact that it sort of isn’t an echo chamber (there are a few non left wing host on it).

Oh please, if CNN/$MAJOR_NEWS_OUTLET would exhibit the same kind of bias as fox they would get burnt at the stake by conservatives.

- 90% of fox viewers are republican and 70% consider themselves conservative.

- http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf According to this study the fox viewers are much more likely to hold beliefs such as "Saddam hussein and bin laden orchestrated 9/11 together."

- Several ex-employees of fox news interviewed in outfoxed have said that their former employer requires them to favour right-wingers.

- A court has ruled that one of the fox affiliate channels DID force its reporters to distort some facts in a story about bovine growth hormone.

- http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cf....Network - Pretty obvious.

- Every other media outlet murdoch buys seems to instantly turn into a conservative PR mag (New york post for example).

- Roger Ailes, the CEO of fox news is a former republican campaign manager and has produced rush limbaugh show.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]As an external observer I can note that CNN is most of the time shameless pro-US propaganda, but it tries to mask it a bit (not much though).

I concour,denoir you are right on spot.It's not about the rightwing-leftwing clash,most of us outside US don't even understand/care what's all the fuss about it's mainly about the patriotic propaganda.

Even when the government's mistakes are painfully obvious no US media television will ever dare to directly question them but instead, for example on the Iraqi topic they call two guys at opossite fronts-one argueing how the number one reason for going to war was just last month acknowledged to be bogus(WMD) so did number two(Al-Queda ties) that some 1,000 US serviceman died for this reasons finally the other poorly countering him that it was a humanitarian war in fact,and it all ends nicely with a draw