The Iraq thread 4

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]So again. What is the point of bringing up his salary based on tax revenue? Are you advocating that all those that have been paid in any form by tax dollars be loyal to Der Fuhrer?

  It's not that he should be loyal to "der fuhrer." as you put it. It's that I as a tax payer do not wish to subsidize his message. Free speech means you are free to speak your mind even if I disagree with you. You seem to be saying that free speech means that not only are you free to speak your mind even if I disagree with you, but I will compensate you for your time as well.

    How would you like to fund a speaker who promotes the Ku Klux Klan? I thought so. So Why should I have to pay this guy's salary? So for me it's not his message so much as that I don't think I should have to pay him for it. He can shoot his mouth of all he wants about what ever he wants, I just don't want to pay him for it.

Does that make sense?

The above is sort of a hypothetical any way. I don't think my tax money goes towards his pay seeing as I don't pay any taxes to Colorado. Still if there is a big out cry for his firing in Colorado, then give the people what they demand.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ] How would you like to fund a speaker who promotes the Ku Klux Klan? I thought so. So Why should I have to pay this guy's salary? So for me it's not his message so much as that I don't think I should have to pay him for it. He can shoot his mouth of all he wants about what ever he wants, I just don't want to pay him for it.

Why should I have to pay the salary of a President I didn't choose to elect? Why should I have to pay for a war that I don't agree with?

Does that make sense?

His essay killed no one. So how is that so much worse than dropping bombs on people? Simply because he chooses to vocally (three years ago) point out that the US is not an innocent victim like we like to pretend we are?

Not once have I seen an objection to what he was saying, but only to how he was saying it.

Quote[/b] ] The above is sort of a hypothetical any way. I don't think my tax money goes towards his pay seeing as I don't pay any taxes to Colorado. Still if there is a big out cry for his firing in Colorado, then give the people what they demand.

Because what kind of door would that open in the academic world? You can now fire professors because you don't agree with their message? As I said, it smacks of 1950s Russia and not 2005 USA.

In any case, as billybobs own article pointed out, only a small percentage of his salary comes from tax revenue. You don't like his message, then cut of that $13000. The rest is paid with tuition by students who largely seem to support him.

We don't get to pick and choose how are taxes are spent. We pay these taxes for a "common good" and with that common good will come some envitable bad.

Quote[/b] ]Didn't arab countries kick out jews after Israel was formed? Does that give them the right to push back aganist arab countries?

That argument will lead no where as it will just lead to pre-Biblical times, an argument that is un-winnable for both sides. (also remember the Jews kicked out arab families when they formed Isreal after WW2...as I said...its a circular unwinnable argument)

Quote[/b] ]He likes to quote King but he (King) would not agree that what they did was right by using violence.

He's not using King to support the terrorist position, nor event he US's, but rather his own.

Quote[/b] ]What about the causes for the causes that caused 9/11? Why did the govt. do this action and this action.

Does any reason justify the oppression of a group of people? Are the use of US-led sanctions against Saddam, that all admit only hurt the common Iraqis, really justified for example? Would the US be so interested in that region if the oil was not there? Does that justify the killing of civilians?

Again, you seem to think he is justifying the terrorist actions. He is merely stating in his inflammatory way that we can not stick our heads in the sand and be blind to the reasons for it. This will only lead to more 9/11-like events. Its up to us to stop our government.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]He's not using King to support the terrorist position, nor event he US's, but rather his own.

Quote[/b] ]"Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable."

Quote[/b] ]

My feelings are reflected in Dr. King's April 1967 Riverside speech, where, when asked about the wave of urban rebellions in U.S. cities, he said, "I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed . . . without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today — my own government."

I understand you struck because you were oppressed. What does that sound like?

Quote[/b] ]Does any reason justify the oppression of a group of people? Are the use of US-led sanctions against Saddam, that all admit only hurt the common Iraqis, really justified for example?

Now it is getting in to the gray area of life because Saddam was oppressing a group of people. How are we suppose to take care of that and be moral. Or, we just let it happen because it's natural (one group over another).

Quote[/b] ]Not once have I seen an objection to what he was saying, but only to how he was saying it.

because of

Quote[/b] ]and quite likely wrong about a number of things

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]I understand you struck because you were oppressed. What does that sound like?

Quote[/b] ]My feelings are reflected in Dr. King's April 1967 Riverside speech, where, when asked about the wave of urban rebellions in U.S. cities, he said, "I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed . . . without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today — my own government."

It sounds like exactly what I said. He's using King to support his position, not the position of the terrorists or the US.

Quote[/b] ]Now it is getting in to the gray area of life because Saddam was oppressing a group of people. How are we suppose to take care of that and be moral

You forget that before any of the present, we proped Saddam up to battle and wage war against another repressive regime, playing two countries against each other, and it wasn't US or American civilians that felt the brunt of it, but the civlians of those nations.

Quote[/b] ]Not once have I seen an objection to what he was saying, but only to how he was saying it.

because of

Quote

and quite likely wrong about a number of things

?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]It sounds like exactly what I said. He's using King to support his position, not the position of the terrorists or the US.

He wouldn't say a thing first about the terrorist because they were oppressed. violence of the oppressed... what does oppressed come to mind.

Quote[/b] ]You forget that before any of the present, we proped Saddam up to battle and wage war against another repressive regime, playing two countries against each other, and it wasn't US or American civilians that felt the brunt of it, but the civlians of those nations.

Again, it was not just the US that helped Saddam. It was the lesser evil syndrome in effect. The US did not force Iraq to go against Iran.

Quote[/b] ] ?

Why should I point out faults that he admits that are likely in his paper.

[Akira 0]

The debate is less on what he said and more on his right to say it.

[billybob2002 0]

The debate is less on what he said and more on his right to say it.

Quote[/b] ]Just let him run his mouth...

[Akira 0]

The debate is less on what he said and more on his right to say it.

Quote[/b] ]Just let him run his mouth...

Or pen. Which ever.

[EiZei 0]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30725-2005Feb16.html

Quote[/b] ]

Treasury's Role in Illicit Iraq Oil Sales Cited

Senator Releases E-Mail From Parties Involved in Shipments Banned by U.N.

By Colum Lynch

Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, February 17, 2005; Page A14

UNITED NATIONS, Feb. 16 -- The Treasury Department provided assurances that the United States would not obstruct two companies' plans to import millions of barrels of oil from Iraq in March 2003 in violation of U.N. sanctions, according to an e-mail from one of the companies.

Diplomats and oil brokers have recently said that the United States had long turned a blind eye to illicit shipments of Iraqi oil by its allies Jordan and Turkey. The United States acknowledged this week that it had acquiesced in the trade to ensure that crucial allies would not suffer economic hardships.

"Something UN oil-for-food something something!"

[theavonlady 2]

Glory be! In this Washington Post column:

Quote[/b] ]It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it.

- Walid Jumblatt, Lebanese Druze political leader

[Wilco 944]

Sure, call this propoganda or whatever you would like.  I'm just sorry it is a somewhat "positive" article  .

Quote[/b] ]Humvee Tragedy Forges Brotherhood of Soldiers

Iraqis Persevere to Recover Dead Americans

By Steve Fainaru

Washington Post Foreign Service

Tuesday, February 22, 2005; Page A01

BALAD, Iraq -- When the Iraqi troops arrived that morning, three American servicemen lay dead at the bottom of the Isaki Canal.

The body of a fourth, Sgt. Rene Knox Jr., 22, had been recovered from a submerged Humvee. Patrolling without headlights around 4:30 a.m., Knox had overshot a right turn. His vehicle tumbled down a concrete embankment and settled upside down in the frigid water.

During the harrowing day-long mission to recover the bodies of the Humvee's three occupants on Feb. 13, an Air Force firefighter also drowned. Five U.S. soldiers were treated for hypothermia. For five hours, three Navy SEAL divers searched the canal before their tanks ran out of oxygen.

What happened then, however, has transformed the relationship between the Iraqi soldiers and the skeptical Americans who train them. Using a tool they welded themselves that day at a cost of about $40, the Iraqis dredged the canal through the cold afternoon until the tan boot of Spec. Dakotah Gooding, 21, of Des Moines, appeared at the surface. The Iraqis then jumped into the water to pull him out, and went back again and again until they had recovered the last American. Then they stood atop the canal, shivering in the dark.

"When I saw those Iraqis in the water, fighting to save their American brothers, I saw a glimpse of the future of this country," said Col. Mark McKnight, commander of the 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, which had overall responsibility for the unit in the accident, his eyes tearing.

The dramatic events offer a counterpoint to the prevailing wisdom about the nascent Iraqi security forces -- the key to the Bush administration's strategy to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq. U.S. commanders have said repeatedly that when the Iraqi troops are ready to stand and fight, American forces will pull out.

To date, the reputation of the Iraqis among American soldiers has been one of sloppiness, disloyalty and cowardice, even though thousands of Iraqi soldiers, policemen and recruits have been killed by insurgents.

Many U.S. soldiers say they fear even standing near the Iraqis because of their propensity to fire their weapons randomly. At Camp Paliwoda in Balad, where Americans from the 5th Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment are training a new Iraqi army battalion, the soldiers work at adjacent bases but are separated by a locked gate, razor wire and a 50-foot-tall chain-link fence.

Pfc. Russell Nahvi, 23, of Arlington, Tex., a medic whose platoon was involved in the accident, said he arrived in Iraq this month with preconceptions about the Iraqi forces. "You always heard never to trust them, to never turn your back on them," he said.

The actions of the Iraqis that Sunday "changed my mind for how I felt about these guys," he said. "I have a totally different perspective now. They were just so into it. They were crying for us. They were saying we were their brothers, too."

A Missing Vehicle

The tragedy on Feb. 13 began when 11 soldiers from the 3rd Platoon, Charlie Company, of the 5th Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment, set out from Camp Paliwoda, 50 miles north of Baghdad, under a moonless sky around 3 a.m. Their four Humvees headed toward Balad's western outskirts, from where the Americans believed insurgents had fired rockets at the base. This account of what happened and what was said is based on interviews with the eight surviving members of the platoon, members of the Iraqi battalion and senior officers with the 5th Battalion, 7th Cavalry.

The platoon leader, Lt. Lamarius Workman, 30, of Brunswick, Ga., rode in the lead Humvee, code-named Blue 1. Behind him in Blue 2 were Knox, from New Orleans; Gooding, who manned the gunner's hatch; and Sgt. Chad Lake, 26, of Ocala, Fla., in the right passenger seat.

The convoy stopped at an intersection along a dirt road. Workman warned the platoon about the canal on the other side. He told the drivers to dim their headlights after making the turn and switch to night-vision goggles for stealth. But after Workman made the turn, he ordered the vehicles to turn around because he saw no visible escape routes in case of an ambush.

When the vehicles turned back, the second Humvee was missing.

Riding in the fourth Humvee, Staff Sgt. L.B. Baker, 38, of Shreveport, La., tried to make contact.

With growing concern, he repeated: Blue 4 to Blue 2. Blue 4-Blue 2, Blue 4-Blue 2. . . .

Sgt. Patrick Hagood, 23, of Anderson, S.C., yelled to the others, "Check the canal," he recalled. A soldier shined his flashlight toward the water.

The Humvee had settled upside down in the middle of the 50-foot-wide canal. The vehicle was under water except for the left rear tire, a three-foot section of the rear bumper and a sliver of the right rear tire.

Cursing, Baker yelled, "That's them!" He hurried down the 10-foot embankment, trailed by Hagood, Workman and Sgt. Stanley Brooks, 23, of Orangeburg, S.C.

Brooks stepped into the water. "Sergeant, that water's cold," Brooks recalled telling Baker, the platoon sergeant. Brooks paused.

"These guys got families, sergeant, let's get them . . . out of there," Brooks said. Baker dived in headfirst.

When Baker reached the Humvee he came up for air, he recalled, and screamed: "That water's cold! It's so cold!"

He dived underwater again and tried to open the driver's side door. It wouldn't budge. He came up for air, he said, and prayed: "Please, God, let me do this." Baker went back under and pulled. The armor-plated door opened this time, heavily, like a cracked safe.

Hagood arrived behind Baker and he, too, remembers praying, "Please, God, let me get these guys out of here." He dived underwater and reached inside the Humvee.

"I couldn't feel anything," he said. "I came up for air and then I went down a second time and I was feeling around, feeling around, and then I felt something. That was Sergeant Lake."

Hagood pulled Lake to the surface and handed him to Baker, who laid him against the left rear tire and began to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Hagood went down again. This time he found Knox. He handed him up to Workman, who by now was straddling the barely exposed right rear tire.

"I went down a fourth time and I didn't find anything," Hagood said. "By then I was freezing and I could barely breathe. So I held on to the top of the truck -- really it was the bottom of the truck -- and stuck my legs inside. I had my head half under water and I felt around with my legs until I hit something and pulled it up with my legs. That was Specialist Gooding."

None of the three soldiers appeared to be alive. But the platoon raced to get them out of the water.

Baker tied a line made out of cargo straps to Lake's bulletproof vest. Brooks stood along the embankment and tried to reel in the two men with his left hand. With his right he gripped a stretcher. Nahvi, leaning over the embankment on his stomach, held the other end of the stretcher while two soldiers clamped down on his legs to prevent Brooks from tumbling into the water.

As Baker, holding Lake, came within a few feet of the embankment, the strap broke.

Brooks lost his balance and fell in the water. Baker was now adrift in the surprisingly strong current. He desperately tried to hold on to Lake, who was weighted down with body armor and ammunition cartridges.

"I'm slipping! I'm slipping!" Baker cried out.

He lost his grip. Lake sank to the bottom of the canal, about eight or nine feet deep.

Brooks was near the embankment, but it was too steep and slippery to pull himself out. By now, Baker had been in the water for nearly 25 minutes; he could barely keep himself afloat.

As the rest of the platoon watched in horror from above, Baker and Brooks began to drift away in the current. Nahvi trained a light on the two men, then looked frantically down the canal for a way to save them.

Protruding from the embankment, about 100 yards away, was a drainage pipe. It curved into the water. Nahvi ran to the pipe and shimmied down to an indentation in the embankment, as if someone had flattened the concrete with a sledgehammer.

"Over here! Over here!" Nahvi yelled.

Brooks, with Baker clinging to him, swam toward the pipe. Nahvi helped both men out. He and another soldier, Cpl. Waylon Poitevint, 21, of DeBary, Fla., got Brooks and Baker back to the heated Humvees.

Baker was almost frozen, nearly delirious. He refused to remove his wet clothes, soldiers recalled. "Help them! Help them!" he yelled over and over.

Cursing, Sgt. Ernest Daniels, 29, of New York City, vowed, "I'm going in." He removed his body armor and tried to ease himself down the embankment. He fell in. Hagood and Workman, both exhausted, were still on top of the Humvee. Workman had frost on his eyebrows. Hagood was shaking uncontrollably as he continued to try to revive Gooding, about 30 minutes after he had pulled him from the Humvee.

"Dawg, I can't do it; I can't do it no more," Hagood told Daniels.

Daniels performed mouth-to-mouth on Gooding while Hagood weakly performed chest compressions. "We were doing that when I looked up and saw the birds," Daniels said.

'Take Off Your Gear!'

Two Black Hawk helicopters were descending toward the road. They carried Air Force firefighters from the 732nd Expeditionary Civil Engineer Squadron, dispatched from nearby Logistical Support Area Anaconda.

Two of the firefighters, Senior Airman Daniel Hernandez of El Paso and Senior Airman Phillip Quinn, of Sylmar, Calif., headed straight for the canal, the soldiers recalled. (Air Force officers declined to discuss details of the incident because of a pending investigation.) Within moments, the airmen were also struggling for their lives, the soldiers said. One airman began to drift in the current. The other lost his grip trying to extricate Gooding, who sank. Neither airman could get out of the canal; one clutched desperately at the embankment but couldn't get hold, the soldiers said. He slowly began to float away.

Air Force Staff Sgt. Ray Rangel, 29, of San Antonio, rushed down the embankment to assist.

Nahvi and the other soldiers watching from above recalled that they shouted to Rangel to remove his armored vest before he went in the water. "Take off your gear!" they yelled. "Take off your gear!"

Rangel entered the water wearing his vest, but it was unclear whether he jumped in intentionally. Daniels, who was watching from the Humvee, said Rangel "reached out his hand. He just lost his grip and fell in."

Weighted down by the armor plates, Rangel drowned.

Soon, the sun was coming up. The Charlie Company commander, Capt. Phillip Poteet, 30, of Lubbock, Tex., arrived to see Workman still on top of the Humvee, trying to secure Knox, to prevent the body from drifting.

As Knox lay in the water, the morning call to prayer wafted over the area from the nearby Jaafar Sadic mosque.

The 3rd Platoon was down to three soldiers; three were dead and five had been evacuated by helicopter to be treated for hypothermia. Another platoon was delayed after a Bradley Fighting Vehicle became stuck in the mud trying to reach the accident scene.

At that point, the Iraqi soldiers showed up, Poteet recalled. "They just appeared out of nowhere, about 30 of them, some walking, some running down the road."

Still in the Water

The Americans had not called the Iraqis for assistance. About 7 a.m., Sgt. Maj. Maitham Hadi Naouma of the Iraqi army's 203rd Battalion woke up to see U.S. Apache attack helicopters circling the western edge of Balad. He radioed the battalion commander, Col. Shujaa Jawad Hussein, and another officer, Maj. Mohammed Ali Abdul Mutalib.

The commanders gathered every soldier they could find and headed to the canal. When they arrived, Poteet explained that three American servicemen were still in the water.

Naouma and Abdul Mutalib, known to the Americans as "Major Mohammed," began to strip. Several Iraqi soldiers followed suit.

With no interpreter in sight, Poteet and the Iraqi soldiers began to argue in broken English, according to Poteet and other soldiers present.

"No, you can't go in there," said Poteet.

"Why? Why?" Abdul Mutalib pleaded, nearly crying.

"Because you'll die," Poteet said.

"No, I'm strong. I'm strong," Abdul Mutalib replied.

Abdul Mutalib, 34, a short, wiry man with close-cropped salt-and-pepper hair and pale eyes, was in the Iraqi military before the war. But before the U.S. invasion, he said, he traded his AK-47 assault rifle for civilian clothes and went home.

During the 1991 Persian Gulf War, he said, "I saw what American power is like. I didn't want to face it again."

Asked why he now felt so strongly about helping the Americans, Abdul Mutalib said through an interpreter: "These people come 10,000 miles to help my country. They've left their families, their children. When we get hurt, they help treat us and take us to hospitals. If we can give them something back, just a little, we can show our thanks."

Abdul Mutalib asked what the Iraqis could do to help recover the bodies. Poteet and Lt. Col. Jody L. Petery, the battalion commander, weren't certain.

The U.S. military was bringing in aircraft equipped with technology to detect metal in the water and "Navy SEALs with God knows how many millions of dollars worth of equipment," said Petery. "The Iraqis' solution was to go out and make a giant coat rack. And that's what worked."

While the SEALs combed the canal, the Iraqis went to a Balad auto repair shop and built their own piece of dredging equipment.

The tool they created looked like a 20-foot length of rusted bed frame, with 11 curved pieces of rebar hastily welded to it. Abdul Mutalib said the tool took about an hour to make and cost 60,000 Iraqi dinars, or about $40.

The Iraqi soldiers, all of whom grew up in Balad, said they had used similar tools as civilians. During the scorching Iraqi summers, they said, families swim in the canal and people sometimes drown in the deceptive current. The makeshift dredging devices are used to recover the bodies.

The Iraqis returned to the canal in the early afternoon and began working both sides of the canal in 10-man teams. They lowered the tool into the water with ropes, dredged, pulled up the tool, then dredged some more.

Plastic bags, car parts and pieces of clothing stuck to the dredging tool, but as the afternoon wore on none of the three Americans had been found. The Navy SEALs rushed back to base to warm themselves and refill their oxygen tanks. Abdul Mutalib had stripped to his long underwear; he refused to put down the tool, even when the Iraqis changed shifts.

It was about 4 p.m. when Gooding's body was found. Cpl. Nabeel Abdullah, 36, a veteran of ousted president Saddam Hussein's army, jumped into the water, wrapped himself around Gooding's leg and rode the dredging device to the embankment.

About 15 minutes later the Iraqis found Lake. This time Abdul Mutalib jumped in to secure the body. He jumped in again when the dredging tool recovered Rangel.

The Iraqis gathered atop the canal, smoking and shivering in the gathering darkness. The Americans helped cover the Iraqis with blankets and embraced them. A U.S. military truck pulled up with food for the rescuers. The Iraqis hadn't eaten all day. The U.S. soldiers lined up at the truck, heaping their plates with food. Instead of feeding themselves, they fanned out, distributing the plates to the Iraqis.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

From

Now this is screwed up.

Quote[/b] ]Hoaxer targets army wife with false death call

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 Posted: 10:25 PM EST (0325 GMT)

Military police released this sketch of a man accused of posing as a casualty notification officer.

SAVANNAH, Georgia (AP) -- Military police are investigating a cruel hoax in which a man wearing an Army dress uniform falsely told the wife of a soldier that her husband had been killed in Iraq.

Investigators are trying to determine why the man delivered the false death notice and whether he was a soldier or a civilian wearing a military uniform.

"We're taking it extremely seriously. Whatever motivation was behind it, it was a sick thing to do," said Fort Stewart spokesman Lt. Col. Robert Whetstone.

Last month, 19,000 soldiers from the Fort Stewart-based 3rd Infantry Division deployed for their second tour of duty in Iraq. At least eight division soldiers have been killed since then.

Fort Stewart officials would not identify the Army wife who reported to military police that a man posing as a casualty assistance officer came to her door February 10.

"Right off the bat, she noticed some things were not right," Whetstone said. "The individual's uniform wasn't correct -- there were no markings or name tags. Plus, the person was alone, and she knew one person does not make (death) notifications."

Whetstone said no similar hoaxes have been reported.

When the 3rd Infantry first deployed to Iraq for the 2003 invasion, some Fort Stewart families reported receiving phone calls from pranksters saying their soldiers had been killed.

This time around, troops and their spouses got pre-deployment briefings that included detailed explanations of how death notices work. Two soldiers, including a chaplain, in dress uniform always arrive to tell the family in person. The Army never makes notifications over the telephone.

Fort Stewart spouses have been spreading news of the latest hoax, said Army wife Michelle Dombrowski, who received an e-mail more than a week ago reporting the incident.

"I can't believe that someone would do that," said Dombrowski, whose husband, Staff Sgt. Joe Dombrowski, is deployed with the 3rd Infantry. "I know the protocol, though."

Military police described the suspected hoaxer as being 6-feet, 1-inch tall and about 180 pounds with black or brown hair and a pale complexion. He was reported to be driving a blue or green pickup truck with chrome wheels, oversized tires and a Georgia license plate

From

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sure, call this propoganda or whatever you would like.  I'm just sorry it is a somewhat "positive" article  

Wilco,instead of whinning and giving an advertisment to all those grumpy Europeans who want US to fail in Iraq at any cost and shiver at the prospect of posting positive news  in this thread maybe you should first pounder on the relevance of the events depicted in the article in the actual conflict.

In tune with your article you should also rejoice at the fact that in Sunni hotspots such as Sammara,Tikrit and Baqubah US soldiers get free souvenirs from Iraqi merchants that smile wide and praise their presance promising to vote in the fothcoming ellections,oh and just disregard the fact that the very next day the same merchant is planting roadside bombs and helps seting up ambushes.

If you want to know what relevant positive news actually are,sadly it is only loosely related with a dozen of Iraqis jumping in freezing waters to retrieve US bodies.

Think of insurgents geting repelled in various attacks soley by Iraqi NG,Sunnis giving up boycoting and agreing to particpate in the drafting of the consitution,attacks droping and Iraqi geting a fragile sense of security and stop having to worry at every corner they turn they could be shot dead,blown to pieces,detained without any reasons.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Sure, call this propoganda or whatever you would like.  I'm just sorry it is a somewhat "positive" article  

Wilco,instead of whinning and giving an advertisment to all those grumpy Europeans who want US to fail in Iraq at any cost and shiver at the prospect of posting positive news  in this thread maybe you should first pounder on the relevance of the events depicted in the article in the actual conflict.

In tune with your article you should also rejoice at the fact that in Sunni hotspots such as Sammara,Tikrit and Baqubah US soldiers get free souvenirs from Iraqi merchants that smile wide and praise their presance promising to vote in the fothcoming ellections,oh and just disregard the fact that the very next day the same merchant is planting roadside bombs and helps seting up ambushes.

If you want to know what relevant positive news actually are,sadly it is only loosely related with a dozen of Iraqis jumping in freezing waters to retrieve US bodies.

Think of insurgents geting repelled in various attacks soley by Iraqi NG,Sunnis giving up boycoting and agreing to particpate in the drafting of the consitution,attacks droping and Iraqi geting a fragile sense of security and stop having to worry at every corner they turn they could be shot dead,blown to pieces,detained without any reasons.

First off, do you honestly think I'm "whinning"(whining)? I'm being a smartass, mainly because I love to see you guys get all puffed up and "correct" on me, it's quite funny.

Quote[/b] ]

If you want to know what relevant positive news actually are,sadly it is only loosely related with a dozen of Iraqis jumping in freezing waters to retrieve US bodies.

Think of insurgents geting repelled in various attacks soley by Iraqi NG,Sunnis giving up boycoting and agreing to particpate in the drafting of the consitution,attacks droping and Iraqi geting a fragile sense of security and stop having to worry at every corner they turn they could be shot dead,blown to pieces,detained without any reasons.

This is positive news, it's showing how U.S. troops may finally be able to start trusting some of the Iraqi troops and people, which in turns leads to the ING being about to go out on patrols alone, which allows them to solely fight back insurgent attacks, in which could lead to less attacks now seeing that ING troops are doing their job just fine without U.S. help, and in return leads to a sense of security with the ING and not U.S. troops patrolling the streets.

How is my article irrelevant? It ties with atleast three "relevant" suggestions you had. How do you think those suggestions come to play? With small stories you and I don't hear about, but this story made it to the outside world.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]First off, do you honestly think I'm "whinning"(whining)?  I'm being a smartass, mainly because I love to see you guys get all puffed up and "correct" on me, it's quite funny.  

Yes Wilco,as you might have guessed,English is not my first nor my second language of choice but I think I can manage in a conversation be a few slip ups ignored.Funny enough,in this case it was a typo that you pointed out so unless you consider my English too hard to understand I will move on past this.

Quote[/b] ]This is positive news, it's showing how U.S. troops may finally be able to start trusting some of the Iraqi troops and people, which in turns leads to the ING being about to go out on patrols alone, which allows them to solely fight back insurgent attacks, in which could lead to less attacks now seeing that ING troops are doing their job just fine without U.S. help, and in return leads to a sense of security with the ING and not U.S. troops patrolling the streets.

To quote myself:

"In tune with your article you should also rejoice at the fact that in Sunni hotspots such as Sammara,Tikrit and Baqubah US soldiers get free souvenirs from Iraqi merchants that smile wide and praise their presance promising to vote in the fothcoming ellections,oh and just disregard the fact that the very next day the same merchant is planting roadside bombs and helps seting up ambushes."

While their intentions might be honest it's not about not being able to trust the National Guardsman,it's about what you have to offer to the Iraqis as USA is the occupier and TBA is the one who invisions a proserous Iraq while failing to deliver security and reconstruct the country.

Quote[/b] ]How is my article irrelevant?

It does nothing to help form an objective perspective of how the Iraqis feel towards the US.

I find it had to belive that a majority of Iraqis would risk their lifes jumping in freezing water to rescue the bodies of dead US soldiers while in the same time a majority supports attacks against them.

Correlated with the fact that in Mosul 5.000 Iraqi Security Forces deserted instead of facing the insurgents and by all means it's not a unic case it strenghtens my belief that it would be hazardous to form your opinion about Iraqis loyalty based on that article.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]I find it had to belive that a majority of Iraqis would risk their lifes jumping in freezing water to rescue the bodies of dead US soldiers while in the same time a majority supports attacks against them.

Actually it didn't say a "majority" of Iraqi's jumped in the river. It was talking about a few Iraqi NG, and it made no mention that the "majority" of Iraqi's would do the same.

The article basically dealt more with American perspectives on Iraqi NG then vice versa. CBS (no friend to Bush) also had a story on how the American Armies views of the NG are changing. It mentioned after the election Iraqi NG recruitment increased considerably, and it followed an Iraqi NG unit that controls a section of Baghdad itself....one America soldier advisor was there and all he said was "Looks like you have everything covered. Good."

Basically it seemed to say that after the elections, the Iraqi's are more hopeful in their country and its future, while at the same time eager to have the Americans out.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]

USA TODAY

February 25, 2005

WASHINGTON - Iraqi insurgents have hit American troops with more remotely detonated bombs in the past year, but the attacks are killing and wounding fewer troops, the Pentagon said Thursday.

Since April 2004, bomb attacks have risen from an average of 25 a day to 30 a day, but the percentage of those attacks that injured or killed U.S. troops fell from 90% to about 25%, according to Lt. Col. Christopher Rodney, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon.

Rodney attributed the declining injury and death rates to a number of factors, from better protective armor and better intelligence to a dramatic improvement in U.S. troops' ability to electronically jam the devices that detonate the bombs.

The Pentagon has made a major push over the past year to armor Humvees and other trucks used by the Army and Marines, to better protect them from roadside bombs and other weapons.

"It's tough to say we'll ever eradicate (the remotely detonated bombs) completely," Rodney said. "But we're continuing to improve our ability to mitigate the number of casualties."

Marines have seen a decline in the number of remotely detonated bombs in western Iraq, the service's top general said Thursday.

Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine Corps commandant, said a combination of improvements in jamming technology and greater cooperation from religious leaders in the area has led to "the number of incidents dropping dramatically" since U.S. forces took the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah last fall. Hagee said he could not provide precise numbers for the falloff.

The military has generally been reluctant to disclose methods for countering the bombs, known as improvised explosive devices (IEDs). But a Pentagon task force on IEDs collects data on attacks every day to help U.S. troops develop anti-bomb tactics. IEDs are frequently detonated by cellphones and inexpensive consumer electronic gadgets such as garage door openers.

The military is engaged in a high-tech chess match with Iraqi insurgents and has developed portable jamming devices that will block the radio frequencies used to explode the bombs, said Ivan Oelrich, director of the Strategic Security Project for the Federation of American Scientists.

Hagee described Iraqi insurgents as clever fighters who change their battlefield tactics every seven to 10 days, making it difficult to stay ahead of them.

The Pentagon cites other factors in the declining casualty rates from IEDs, including a computer program that tracks previous IED locations to help commanders know where to deploy the bomb jammers, increased aerial surveillance and the use of robots to dispose of unexploded bombs.

As of Thursday, 1,476 U.S. military personnel have been killed since the war began. Forty-two were killed in February. With four days to go in the month, February has so far seen the lowest monthly U.S. death total since last June.

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Iraqi forces captured a key aide to Jordanian-born terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who leads an insurgency affiliated with Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, the government said Friday.

The man, identified as Talib Mikhlif Arsan Walman al-Dulaymi, also known as Abu Qutaybah, was captured during a Feb. 20 raid in Anah, about 160 miles northwest of Baghdad, a government announcement said.

"Abu Qutaybah was responsible for determining who, when and how terrorist network leaders would meet with al-Zarqawi," the government said.

Al-Zarqawi, who has a $25 million bounty on his head, is believed to have orchestrated a relentless wave of car bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and beheadings across the country.

Qutaybah "filled the role of key lieutenant for the Zarqawi network, arranging safe houses and transportation as well as passing packages and funds to al-Zarqawi," the government said. "His extensive contacts and operational ability throughout western Iraq made him a critical figure in the Zarqawi network."

The government said Qutaybah was a known associate of other al-Zarqawi lieutenants already held by coalition forces, including Abu Ahmed, an al-Qaida-linked insurgent leader in the northern city of Mosul who was detained Dec. 22.

During the same Feb. 20 raid, Iraqi forces also captured another al-Zarqawi aide who "occasionally acted as his driver," the government said. The man was identified as Ahmad Khalid Marad Ismail al-Rawi, who also helped arrange meetings for al-Zarqawi.

He also is known as Abu Uthman.

Both suspects are Iraqi and their names belong to well-known Sunni tribes in and around the town of Ramadi, a hotbed of the insurgency in Anbar province west of Baghdad.

The government earlier announced it captured the leader of an al-Qaida-affiliated terror cell allegedly responsible for a string of beheadings in Iraq.

In a statement late Thursday, the government said Mohamed Najam Ibrahim was arrested by Iraqi National Guardsmen in Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. It gave no date for the arrest.

Ibrahim had carried out the beheadings with his brother, the government said.

"The two beheaded a number of citizens in addition to launching attacks against Iraqi security forces," the statement said.

The government said Ibrahim was being interrogated by authorities.

Last week, police said they arrested two other leaders of the insurgency in Baqouba, including an aide to al-Zarqawi named Haidar Abu Bawari.

From

[Chill 0]

The sentence "centralization of power" in Russia is a clear demonstration that Washington, and indeed, the West in general, does not understand Russia. Although Washington would love to see Russia implode in a myriad of micro-nations, this is not going to happen, for one clear reason: Vladimir Putin is not Boris Yeltsin.

So for the following four years, George Bush is going to have to read articles such as this one, pulling his speech apart point by point and receiving broadsides from his interlocutors. Moscow has to centralize certain powers, otherwise opportunistic states such as the USA today, which acts as the worst kind of international vulture, a scavenger, will try to foster dissent and take advantage of Russia's resources.

If George W. Bush considers "liberty" as invading a sovereign nation based upon lies, committing an act of mass murder, slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians in the name of "freedom and democracy", winning "hearts and minds" through "shock and awe" tactics, it is evident that he is intellectually constrained to the table upon which he threw a record number of Texans. He is intellectually, diplomatically and legally moribund, he is limited to uttering Cold War Slogans and he has a retentive understanding of the dossiers.

Who is governing the USA? It certainly isn't George W. Bush. He doesn't even know what he is speaking about.

While we are speaking about freedom and democracy and so on, a couple of questions. Where are Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction? No, we cannot ask Dr. David Kelly, because he was the one who knew they didn't exist and committed suicide.

And how to justify the firing of CNN journalists criticizing the USA's act of mass murder in Iraq? Freedom and (BANG!!) Democracy (BANG!!) folks, winning hearts (BANG!!) and minds by (BANG!!) shock and (BANG!!) awe tactics.

Speaking about democracy, did George Bush's Washington use the processes of dialogue and discussion in the UNSC? Or did it launch a criminal act of mass murder against Iraq, against every norm in the book?

And this man dares to look Vladimir Putin in his eyes?

Certainly, Russia wants to have friendly relations with the USA just as it fosters good relations with all nations. But is this made easy by a Washington which talks and practises the law of the jungle while pretending to stand up for the rule of law?

[Akira 0]

Seems that might go better in the US Politics thread

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Look Denoir, someones listening to you!

I Support The Occupation Of Iraq, But I Don't Support Our Troops

Quote[/b] ]James W. Henley

I'd like to ask those currently trumpeting their support for the troops a question: Have you ever actually met any of these soldiers in person? Well, I have, and believe me, they are no more impressive than any other low-level functionary of a large institution.

In all honesty, my soul swells with pride at the thought of the military-strategy papers and cost-analysis reports in which the troops are represented as numerical figures. But, as for the men and women—well, in almost every respect, they are average. Although they are no less intelligent than any other American, it is certainly fair to say they lack the ability to devise the complex strategies and tactics to manage their own divisions, much less grasp the nuanced reasons for their deployment.

It is ridiculous that my "heart" is somehow morally or ethically obliged to "go out" to the troops. In fact, had the troops not been put to productive labor by the sheer might and institutional authority of the U.S. military, a good number of them would be sitting around bars, drinking and gambling. In short, we shouldn't view the troops as objects of sympathy, because their very contribution to our society is their ability to carry out simple commands on a battlefield.

LOL, well almost.

Akira-

Quote[/b] ]Actually it didn't say a "majority" of Iraqi's jumped in the river. It was talking about a few Iraqi NG, and it made no mention that the "majority" of Iraqi's would do the same.

I think that was roughly the point quicKsanD was making, that it (the incident) is useless for drawing general conclusions from.

However i found it somewhat interesting nonetheless and

no doubt of enough relevance to post here. Individual stories certainly have a place in the scope of finding out what is going on in Iraq (especially in the forum of a war game i would think), even if they are not as reliable as general statistical trends for drawing opinions on what the hell is going on there.

Chill-

Quote[/b] ]Although Washington would love to see Russia implode in a myriad of micro-nations, this is not going to happen, for one clear reason: Vladimir Putin is not Boris Yeltsin.

I dont think Washington wants that to happen at all (youde likely be noticing it if Bush wanted it to happen). Russia imploding would be a potential nightmare for the west and crucially it would impede business (not to mention global stability, weapons control etc).

Whilst i would like to argue with much of the rest of your post, Akira may be right that this is not the right thread for it.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think that was roughly the point quicKsanD was making, that it (the incident) is useless for drawing general conclusions from.

That's why I responded, as no one was trying to make a generalization about the situation or the feelings of the Iraqi's.

Quote[/b] ]However i found it somewhat interesting nonetheless and

no doubt of enough relevance to post here. Individual stories certainly have a place in the scope of finding out what is going on in Iraq (especially in the forum of a war game i would think), even if they are not as reliable as general statistical trends for drawing opinions on what the hell is going on there.

Which again is why I responded.

Everyone knows I switched from supporting to completely being against the war and occupation. However, I see no problem with posting or mentioning whatever "bright spots" or "good news" might happen to come out of Iraq. I am sure that the majority of Iraqi's want the US out of their country from the simple fact that if it was me, I would want a foreign army gone too-quick. However I don't think that prevents Iraqi's of any stature to act humanely or even with some kind regard to American soldiers. They are human after all. I refuse to believe that all Iraqi's would rather kill and spit on and burn American soldiers as is sometimes seemed to be portrayed here.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Anyone see the latest frontline? It was quite good, and painted a very informative picture of the kind of war the army's being forced to fight.

[Wilco 944]

@ Feb. 26 2005,19:11)]Anyone see the latest frontline? It was quite good, and painted a very informative picture of the kind of war the army's being forced to fight.

The one on PBS? It's a real nice documentary, really did show what those guys were going through.

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6913272/

Quote[/b] ]

Saddam's half brother captured in Syria

Relative, 29 other former officials of Baathist regime turned over to Iraq

The Associated Press

Updated: 7:22 p.m. ET Feb. 27, 2005CAIRO, Egypt - Iraqi officials said Sunday that Syria captured and handed over Saddam Hussein’s half brother, a most-wanted leader in the Sunni-based insurgency, ending months of Syrian denials that it was harboring fugitives from the ousted Saddam regime. Iraq authorities said Damascus acted in a gesture of goodwill.

Sabawi Ibrahim al-Hassan, who shared a mother with Saddam, was nabbed along with 29 other fugitive members of the former dictator’s Baath Party in Hasakah in northeastern Syria, 30 miles from the Iraqi border, the officials said on condition of anonymity. The U.S. military in Iraq had no immediate comment.

Al-Hassan’s capture was the latest in a series of arrests of important insurgent figures that the government hopes will deal a crushing blow to the violent opposition forces. A week ago authorities grabbed a key associated and the driver of Jordanian-born terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of al-Qaida in Iraq and believed to be the inspiration of the ongoing bombings, beheadings and attacks on Iraqi and American forces. Iraqi officials said they expect to take al-Zarqawi soon.

'Deserve death'

Iraqis welcomed news of al-Hassan’s capture.

“I hope all the terrorists will be arrested soon and we can live in peace,†said Safiya Nasser Sood, a 54-year-old Baghdad housewife. “Those criminals deserve death for the crimes they committed against the Iraqi people.â€

“I consider this day as a victory for Iraqis,†said Adnan al-Mousawi, a resident in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad. “By God’s will Saddam will stand in court with his officials and this will be the end of the unjust dictatorship.â€

Al-Hassan was believed to be operating from the northern Syrian city of Aleppo to help organize and finance the insurgency that has killed untold thousands of Iraqis and more than 1,000 U.S. troops since the overthrow of Saddam in April 2003.

The Iraqi officials did not specify when al-Hassan was captured, only saying he was detained after the Feb. 14 assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri in Beirut, Lebanon, in a blast that killed 16 others. Syria fell under suspicion in the killing because of its military and political domination of the country, where it maintains 15,000 troops. Hariri had quit the premiership over Syria’s continued presence in Lebanon.

The United States, France and the United Nations have applied extreme pressure on Damascus to withdraw from Lebanon, and the Syrians recently said they were pulling their forces back to the border, but not leaving the country.

David Satterfield, a U.S. deputy assistant secretary of state, was to meet Syrian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Hammoud on Monday to reiterate U.S. demands for the withdrawal and a thorough inquiry into the Hariri assassination.

Syria must have felt additional pressure after Israel on Saturday accused Damascus of harboring Palestinian militants responsible for a Friday night suicide bombing in Tel Aviv in which four Israelis were killed, shattering a hard-won truce.

Death toll mounts

Despite al-Hassan’s arrest, the death toll mounted in Iraq on Sunday with two U.S. soldiers killed in a roadside ambush southwest of the capital — the second and third American deaths over the weekend that pushed the overall U.S. toll to nearly 1,500 since the war began in March 2003.

Bomb attacks and ambushes killed nine people near the northern city of Mosul, while five headless bodies — including that of an Iraqi woman — were discovered in and just south of Baghdad. Gunmen, meanwhile, killed two policemen in an ambush as the officers were driving to work in

I wonder how many more are in "custody"....

[walker 0]

Hi all

Sadly

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59240-2005Feb28.html

Quote[/b] ]Car Bomb Kills More Than 100 in Iraq

133 Wounded in Attack, Police Say

By Saad Sarhan, Jackie Spinner and Fred Barbash

Washington Post Foreign Service

Monday, February 28, 2005; 7:04 AM

HILLA, Feb. 28 -- A suicide bomber slammed into a crowd on a busy street in the city of Hilla Monday morning, killing at least 106 people, police and rescue officials said.

It was one of the most lethal single attacks by insurgents since the fall of Saddam Hussein in April, 2003. Hilla is 60 miles south of Baghdad.

...

Walker

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Ain't Gonna Rest On Saturday

17:23 Feb 28, '05 / 19 Adar 5765

The Iraqi government’s decision to make Saturday a day off has sparked much protest as Iraqis object to the observance of what they call “the Zionist holiday.â€

The Iraqi government decided last week that in order to make up for the additional day off, the traditional six-hour Iraqi workday would be extended.

Many Iraqis went to work on Saturday anyway, saying they did not want to rest on the day when the Jews rest. They are demanding that the additional day off be Thursday instead.

A statement released by the student union at Baghdad’s Mustansariyah University described the government order as forcing “the Zionist holiday†upon Iraqis. The statement also said the decision had been made by an interim Iraqi government, and not the permanent one. "We declare a general strike in the University of Mustansariyah to reject this decision and any decision aimed at depriving Iraqis of their identity," the statement said.

In Samarra, one of the four Islamic holy cities, almost 80 miles north of Baghdad, a group of armed men forced the Mutawakal high school to open, threatening to kill the school’s teachers if they took the day off.

Students chanting "We don't want Saturday, it's a Jewish holiday" marched through the town of Baqouba, northeast of Baghdad.

Actually, they're close. It's a Zionist plotz (look that up in your Yiddish dictionary).