The Iraq thread 4

[Pathy 0]

Reminds me of the line:

Quote[/b] ]We cut them in half with a machine gun then give them a bandaid.

[Acecombat 0]

First we break then we build ....

*Must resist temptation to use the word 'oxymoron again*

All US companies huh? the iraqis must be loving it.They dont even have a say on what/who/where to build in their country.

[Akira 0]

Oh good. Falluja's first McDonald's.

[billybob2002 0]

Oh boy....

Quote[/b] ]

Marines of the first Division use a bolt cutter to take of the handcuffs of an Iraqi, at a makeshift military hospital in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Wednesday, Nov. 10, 2004. The Iraqi whose name was not released, was found handcuffed in an insurgent hiding place in Fallujah, after being kidnapped 10 days ago in Baghdad's suburb of Abu Ghraib. The Marines believe he was used as a human shield. (AP Photo/Anja Niedringhaus)

The guy is alive so no ban!

[Baphomet 0]

I periodically browse this site, chiefly out of curiousity more than anything else. How legitimate their information is I can't verify.

Third item down.

Quote[/b] ]Terrorists claim US using chemical weapons; jihadis may use this false claim as pretext for launching chemical attacks of their own

Quote[/b] ]Numerous Arabic language jihadi boards this morning are claiming that the US has attacked the "mujahadeen" in Fallujah with chemical weapons. The posts are extremely graphic and detailed. These postings are almost certainly disinformation, and appear to have been placed in a deliberate attempt by the jihadis to justify a planned chemical weapons attack on US troops by the terrorists.

Ok. How do they know with any certainty that it's disinformation? I can't even tell if such bulletin boards or posts exist describing such things. It doesn't seem like these guys can verify whether or not these claims are true.

Either way it seems like a pretty large city for even 15 thousand troops to cover effectively.

[Acecombat 0]

I kinda doubt it , why would US send in forces if they are also using gases? Would be a risk to ones troop too wont it? maybe if a seige were on i would give it a bit of thought not right now. Plus with the media hot on tail with troops i doubt the US would want them to know whats going on and they certainly cant hide something like this ...

[billybob2002 0]

More hostages found...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4002989.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Iraqi hostages found in Falluja

One of the hostages (right) said he was a taxi driver

US-led troops involved in fighting against insurgents in the Iraqi city of Falluja have found four imprisoned men believed to be Iraqi hostages.

Three of the men were contractors working for the US military, a US marines spokesman said, and the fourth said he was a taxi driver.

All of the men had been beaten and starved and were wearing handcuffs.

Meanwhile, two US helicopters were hit by small-arms and rocket fire in separate incidents and forced to land.

The crews of both aircraft were rescued unhurt, the US military said.

US-led forces say they have rid more than 70% of the city of insurgents in the battle, which began on Tuesday.

In other developments in Iraq:

At least 17 people are killed in a car bomb in a busy shopping area of central Baghdad on Thursday morning, and at least one more blast is reported later in the day

Masked insurgents in the northern city of Mosul attack several police stations and loot weapons and ammunition, before setting at least two of them on fire

Kirkuk Governor Abdulrahman Mustafa escapes an assassination attempt in the northern city, but several people are injured in the bomb attack on his convoy.

Pockets of resistance

Troops are now trying to secure the southern districts of the city.

The rebels are said to be disorganised and leaderless, but still dangerous.

The BBC's Paul Wood, who is embedded with US marines in Falluja, says pockets of resistance remain even in areas the US and Iraqi forces have captured.

Troops are coming under sniper fire all over the city, he says.

Villages to the west of the city, thought by the US to be clear of insurgents, are also reporting sniper, mortar and rocket-propelled grenade fire.

Concerns are growing about the humanitarian situation in and around Falluja.

Red Crescent spokeswoman Firdoos al-Ubadi said Falluja was a "disaster", with doctors unable to reach most Iraqi casualties and medical equipment virtually non-existent.

There is little information on the number of military or civilian casualties in Falluja.

'Propaganda' found

A US marines spokesman said the three Iraqi contractors rescued by troops had been working on an American military base, but were captured a week ago.

Click here for a satellite map of the city showing troop movements and key sites

They were found blindfolded, handcuffed and in a locked room.

In the same building, marines found surface-to-air missiles, night-vision equipment, black uniforms, computers and a weapons cache.

They also retrieved what they called anti-coalition propaganda and videotapes showing torture of hostages and weapons training.

The BBC's Jennifer Glasse, at US marines' headquarters outside Falluja, says this is the first concrete proof that insurgents had bases in the area.

Techniques, tactics and the history of fighting in cities

Q&A: Falluja tactics

Six suspected militants were detained in the raid.

Inside the city itself, marines freed a fourth hostage, an Iraqi taxi driver who said he had been held for 10 days.

He did not work with Americans and said he did not know why he was kidnapped.

Falluja is believed to have been an operating base for a ruthless group of kidnappers led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Nine foreign hostages remain unaccounted for in Iraq.

The current operation in the city was cited as the reason for the kidnapping of Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's 75-year-old cousin, Ghazi, his wife and their daughter-in-law from their home in Baghdad on Tuesday.

The previously unknown Ansar al-Jihad group said the hostages would die within 48 hours unless the offensive ended and prisoners were freed.

[Pathy 0]

That reminds me. Saw this on the news earlier, was a tape handed to Reuters. BBC website and the like dont seem to show it yet. They said earlier its not validated, so it could well be a fake but.....suprised its not been mentioned in more depth....i guess nobody gives a shit about the Iraqi NG huh?

Quote[/b] ]Rebels, in a video given to Reuters, said they had snatched more than 20 Iraqi National Guardsmen in Falluja, but did not say how and did not make any specific threats.

The footage showed masked guerrillas pointing assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers at a group of men with their backs turned dressed in National Guard uniforms.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArt....6776845

Edit:

go to this page:

http://tv.reuters.com/ifr_mai....4696988

And click the 5th item along the bottom for the video. It doesnt contain violence ect, just a guy reading something with the "captives" in the background.

See, told you nobody gives a shit about the Iraqi National Guard

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Either way it seems like a pretty large city for even 15 thousand troops to cover effectively.

They're sweeping it clear so I think not even civilians are left alone in the rear of the front lines but the whole city is probably emptied. I do think 15,000 is enough taken the estimated opposition of less than 5,000 is true when they've also got UAVs, tanks, artillery, helicopters, jets, and satellites and whatever at their side...

Body armor alone probably plays significant part in reducing the casualties against lightly-armed opponents.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Either way it seems like a pretty large city for even 15 thousand troops to cover effectively.

They're sweeping it clear so I think not even civilians are left alone in the rear of the front lines but the whole city is probably emptied. I do think 15,000 is enough taken the estimated opposition of less than 5,000 is true when they've also got UAVs, tanks, artillery, helicopters, jets, and satellites and whatever at their side...

Body armor alone probably plays significant part in reducing the casualties against lightly-armed opponents.

Well of course it is enough if you use overwhelming and excessive force. Throwing white phosphorous and high explosive shells at entire city blocks with MLRS etc. will basically level the city and most people inside, civilians or fighters.

So yeah, umm, great show, why not just run bulldozers over the whole area, or use chem weapons, same effect.

These days seeing Americans in combat is one of the worst things ever, even though they can train the most, and have the best equipment, because they do not accept any casualties of their own, many many many innocents are killed instead through inappropriate combat techniques.

[Pathy 0]

Ahh but you forget: the life of one American soldier is worth 100 iraqis.....

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Either way it seems like a pretty large city for even 15 thousand troops to cover effectively.

They're sweeping it clear so I think not even civilians are left alone in the rear of the front lines but the whole city is probably emptied. I do think 15,000 is enough taken the estimated opposition of less than 5,000 is true when they've also got UAVs, tanks, artillery, helicopters, jets, and satellites and whatever at their side...

Body armor alone probably plays significant part in reducing the casualties against lightly-armed opponents.

Well of course it is enough if you use overwhelming and excessive force.  Throwing white phosphorous and high explosive shells at entire city blocks with MLRS etc. will basically level the city and most people inside, civilians or fighters.

So yeah, umm, great show, why not just run bulldozers over the whole area, or use chem weapons, same effect.  

These days seeing Americans in combat is one of the worst things ever, even though they can train the most, and have the best equipment, because they do not accept any casualties of their own, many many many innocents are killed instead through inappropriate combat techniques.

I wouldnt bet on that. I am sure their regular war-experiences have given the americans a great competitive edge over all other armies in the world. They have been able to challenge and improve their logistics in practice and nothing can replace testing in action.

With the experience gained from Iraq 2 they have created a highly professional army that is always ready for action without silly trial periods.

If had read recently that germany develops rockets the pilots are basically never able to test. How could you find potential errors? Nah, be careful with your statement. We complain about one or the other thing but to fight and coordinate a war with more than a hundred thousand soldiers is a great challenge. And the americans have mastered it. Criticising in theory is easy, but in practice you dont have many options to chose from.

[bn880 5]

What are you talking about Albert? Read what I wrote, I am not saying they are not skilled. I already said they have overwhelmingly more training and some of the best equipment. That's the entire point.

There is no guess work, we know people are being killed by artillery/MLRS and all sorts of nasty indiscriminatory stuff in Fal. This is a fact, look even at the pictures FFS.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

You stated inapropriate fighting techniques.

And my point was that we have no basis of comparison! since no army in modern history fought a war like this. I trust my feelings that humans are capable of learning and I think the americans have had enough time to learn.

What I blame the desaster on is not the fighting technique, but like in Israel I blame the approach.

[bn880 5]

The technique is there to minimize friendly casualties. It was always there since the beginning of war, but there are various levels.

the more you minimize your casualties in urban conflicts, the more innocent people will be killed. That is, the easiest way to minimize your casualties currently is a long siege, or chemical warfare. Starve all or kill all inside. Next are weapons like large HE bombs and artillery launching them. Simply put, it is not an acceptable tactic in todays western cultures, not in germany either Albert. Imagine someone invading Germany to free it from some "insurgents" and then shelling a district of Berlin with artillery/MLRS/WP etc. You call that MOUT? That isn't eliminating the insurgents, that is eliminating anyone in the vicinity.

Tet me explain it another way, the problem is not that it is difficult to eradicate people in a city, the problem is how to eradicate only desired targets in the city. What were the numbers 90K in Fal. 5K of that insurgents?

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

What are you talking about Albert?  Read what I wrote, I am not saying they are not skilled.  I already said they have overwhelmingly more training and some of the best equipment.  That's the entire point.

There is no guess work, we know people are being killed by artillery/MLRS and all sorts of nasty indiscriminatory stuff in Fal.  This is a fact, look even at the pictures FFS.

I'm calling bullshit on MLRS, they ain't been using them.

Quote[/b] ]The technique is there to minimize friendly casualties. It was always there since the beginning of war, but there are various levels.

the more you minimize your casualties in urban conflicts, the more innocent people will be killed. That is, the easiest way to minimize your casualties currently is a long siege, or chemical warfare. Starve all or kill all inside. Next are weapons like large HE bombs and artillery launching them. Simply put, it is not an acceptable tactic in todays western cultures, not in germany either Albert. Imagine someone invading Germany to free it from some "insurgents" and then shelling a district of Berlin with artillery/MLRS/WP etc. You call that MOUT? That isn't eliminating the insurgents, that is eliminating anyone in the vicinity.

Tet me explain it another way, the problem is not that it is difficult to eradicate people in a city, the problem is how to eradicate only desired targets in the city. What were the numbers 90K in Fal. 5K of that insurgents?

If they were soley caring about there own casualties then why are they actually entering the city, you talking BS again, i doubt they would have trained for 7 months before being deployed in MOUT if they were going to sit back and shell a city like they did before, as far as i can see the shelling is fairly light from air and land based arty. Although shelling in city's can hardly be precise from what i have seen and heard there being very selective with there targets. plus it was never a prolonged period of bombing before they moved in either.

[quicksand 0]

Rampage in Mosul turns city into insurgents control

Quote[/b] ]Insurgents have set police stations ablaze, stole weapons and brazenly roamed the streets of Mosul as Iraq's third largest city appeared to be sliding out of control, residents said.

Explosions and fire from assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades echoed across the city and columns of smoke rose from at least two police stations set alight. At least seven police stations have been attacked in the past 48 hours.

The US military issued a statement admitting that local security forces had been overrun in several areas and said local authorities were doing what they could to restore order.

"It's crazy, really, really crazy," said Abdallah Fathi, a resident who witnessed one police station being attacked.

"Yesterday, the city felt like hell, today it could be the same or worse."

The northern city of Mosul has seen frequent outbreaks of violence, but residents and reporters said the past two days were the worst since the end of the war last year.

As US forces battle to suppress insurgents in the city of Fallujah, west of Baghdad, it appears many fighters may have fled to other cities where they are launching new attacks.

In the past three days, there has been a step up in guerrilla activity in Samarra, Baiji, Baquba, Tikrit, Ramadi and parts of Baghdad - across the Sunni Muslim heartland.

In Mosul, a city of about three million people, insurgents attacked a group of Iraqi National Guardsmen blocking a bridge in the city centre, killing five of them and destroying three vehicles, witnesses said.

A cameraman working for Reuters filmed groups of militants emerging from a police station carrying police-issued AK-47s and bullet-proof jackets before setting the building on fire.

A photographer working for Reuters covering the aftermath of one attack was shot in the leg and taken to hospital. His injuries were not life-threatening.

Doctors said one civilian had died and at least 25 had been wounded by crossfire in the past two days of fighting.

In a statement, the US military said it had launched offensive operations in southern Mosul to try to quell the rampaging insurgency after a request from the governor.

"Insurgent forces attacked several police stations and other targets within the city," it said.

"In several cases, anti-Iraqi forces exceeded the capabilities of the police on site, requiring reinforcements."

It said the governor was doing all he could to try to get police back into stations to restore order.

On Wednesday, large groups of armed men, many wearing traditional scarves around their heads, attacked police stations and a convoy of civilian contractor vehicles.

Insurgents drove around the city centre at will, freely wandering through traffic and brandishing their weapons aloft.

"It doesn't feel like the police or any local government officials are in charge at all," one resident said. "The insurgents are everywhere."

He said that while Thursday had begun slightly more calmly than Wednesday, there was still a blanket of tension and insecurity hanging over the city.

"There seem to be battles going on in several places," he said.

Most residents were too scared to leave their homes and those that spoke to journalists did not want their names used.

Mosul's governor imposed an immediate curfew on Wednesday and said that anyone crossing any of the five bridges over the Tigris river running through the city would be shot dead.

The most recent news is that the insurgents were even in control of the bridges where the cerfew was imposed days ago.And we are talking about the third largest city in Iraq surpassed only by Baghdad and Basra in it's importance.

The backclash of the Fallujah siege is begining to show it's theets,alongisde with Mosul Ramadi too reportedly heating up with the rebels tghtening their grip on the city.

Fallujah battle heating up,two Cobras forced down

Quote[/b] ]US marines in Falluja have come under sustained attack from several different directions in the headquarters they have set up in the Iraqi city.

The BBC's Paul Wood, who is at the scene, said there was sniper fire from four or five points on the horizon.

The insurgents may have regrouped, he says, after US-led troops took over large parts of the city.

Other reports speak of heavy aerial bombardment, and a fresh attack on rebel-held areas in the south.

First Marine Division commander Maj Gen Richard Natonski told AP news agency the operation was "ahead of schedule".

Eighteen US and five Iraqi troops had been killed so far, and another 69 Americans and 34 fighters were wounded, he added.

US military officials say around 600 insurgents have died.

Residents trapped in the battered city said they could smell the stench of decomposing bodies.

US-led troops are trying to push the rebels into a corner, by pinning them back against the natural barrier of the Euphrates river

But another BBC correspondent, Quil Lawrence, says troops have pulled back from the city hospital, captured on Sunday night.

Meanwhile, two US Cobra helicopters were hit by small-arms and rocket fire in separate incidents and forced to land.

The crews of both aircraft were rescued unhurt, the US military said, but some reports suggest one of the pilots was hit with small-arms fire

Our correspondent says the US marines had to call in four air strikes as they came under heavy fire in central Falluja.

Insurgents appeared to have reached the perimeter of the headquarters, he says.

At the same time, a rifle company of marines has been pushing out into the city, going literally house to house to try to clear out the insurgents.

Troops have been trying to stay inside buildings to avoid exposure to sniper fire.

US-led forces said earlier on Thursday they had rid more than 70% of the city of insurgents in the battle

The rebels are said to be disorganised and leaderless, but still dangerous.

Villages to the west of the city, thought by the US to be clear of insurgents, are also reporting sniper, mortar and rocket-propelled grenade fire.

Concerns are growing about the humanitarian situation in and around Falluja.

Red Crescent spokeswoman Firdoos al-Ubadi said Falluja was a "disaster", with doctors unable to reach most Iraqi casualties and medical equipment virtually non-existent

As the battle progresses the more intriguing it gets.On the one hand even the journalists embeded with the Marines have admited tight constricts to their broadcasting and alot of unallowed things the general picture right now as brandashed by most agencies that are satisfied in just quoting US generals and officials:

-75% of the city under control;

-Sloughter houses discovered

-Iraqi forces doing a great job and are trully the spear of the operation;

-anti-Iraqi forces disorganised,leaderless,desperate and cornered

-thousands of anti-Iraqi forces killed but at the same time only 1,800-2,000 were in the city.

Still if you read the tid bits from the reporters you get a completly diferent pictures,Marines at times shot from 5 diferent directions,aircrafts on course to Germany filled with wounded marines,the Insurgents are advancing to the center of the city and have forced the Marines out of the hospital they've captured in the first day,so it's really confusing right now.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Still if you read the tid bits from the reporters you get a completly diferent pictures,Marines at times shot from 5 diferent directions,aircrafts on course to Germany filled with wounded marines,the Insurgents are advancing to the center of the city and have forced the Marines out of the hospital they've captured in the first day,so it's really confusing right now.

Of course the Fire is going to be more feroucious (sp?) and the next 24/48hrs are going to get even fiercer because as the Marines and Infantry units advance and as the Insurgents retreat into the smaller streets of the old town/industrial zones its going to get alot worse as you will have the insurgents pushed into a smaller area and so logically the intensity of fire is going to increase, it hardly point to the marines failing or the falluja situation floundaring becuase they are being shot at from 5 different locations, the US soldiers are the best int he world at MOUT, (hard to admit) but they are and so to come out with 69 casualties and 18 deaths without sounding callous isn't too bad.

also point me to where they have said thousands of insurgents dead?

[sputnik monroe 102]

I heard around 700 dead insurgents on MSNBC, Fox, and a European news channel I get (I'll have to get back to you one the name of that one).

Quote[/b] ].On the one hand even the journalists embeded with the Marines have admited tight constricts to their broadcasting

That's actually to be expected. You don't allow the footage and info out until the battle is over. This is a battle not a sports game. Real time info to the civilian world is a no go in battle.

[Blake 0]

There was some pretty intense footage on BBC. Seems that the fight is far from over.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

There was some pretty intense footage on BBC. Seems that the fight is far from over.

of course it aint, as the marines advance the area in which the insurgents/terrists occupy decreases so the ferocity of the fight will increase as they become more concentrated.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]

of course it aint, as the marines advance the area in which the insurgents/terrists occupy decreases so the ferocity of the fight will increase as they become more concentrated.

well afaik the rebels are not surrounded...

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Quote[/b] ]

of course it aint, as the marines advance the area in which the insurgents/terrists occupy decreases so the ferocity of the fight will increase as they become more concentrated.

well afaik the rebels are not surrounded...

Well it seems they are, Marines are holding the southern borders of the town while the rest of the Marines + Army units push south from the north clearing them out, as they flee into the desert the southern Units are moping up.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]of course it aint, as the marines advance the area in which the insurgents/terrists occupy decreases so the ferocity of the fight will increase as they become more concentrated.

Naturally. Just an observation that the resistance has not evaporated as some speculations suggested in the initial phase of the attack.

The guy on the right looks like MC Hammer lol.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Still if you read the tid bits from the reporters you get a completly diferent pictures,Marines at times shot from 5 diferent directions,aircrafts on course to Germany filled with wounded marines,the Insurgents are advancing to the center of the city and have forced the Marines out of the hospital they've captured in the first day,so it's really confusing right now.

US military reports 178 wounded in Fallujah. Also, was there a battle for Fallujah general hospital or something?

Anyway,

Quote[/b] ]U.S. Officials Probe Iraq 'Slaughterhouse'

Thu Nov 11, 5:49 PM ET   Middle East - AP

By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. and Iraqi troops battling their way through Fallujah stumbled on a horrific find — a small, windowless room with blood-soaked mattresses and straw mats on the floor that U.S. commanders are calling a "hostage slaughterhouse."

The room is in a small, concrete house is believed to have been used by militants who captured and possibly killed hostages here.

Marine Maj. Gen. Richard Natonski, who is commanding the offensive to retake the insurgent-held city, gave grim details of the "slaughterhouse" Thursday after paying a visit there.

"The room was small. There were no windows, just one door. Inside, the flag was on the wall. There were two thin mattresses and straw mats covered in blood," he said. "There was also a wheelchair, which we believe was used to move the prisoners around in. We believe they were bound and moved around the complex in the wheelchair."

Hanging on the wall of the small room was a black banner reading, "The Islamic Secret Army" with a logo showing a sword and a Kalashnikov rifle flanking a Quran.

That militant group has claimed responsibility in a number of kidnapping of foreigners — including the July abduction of seven employees — three Indians, three Kenyans, and an Egyptian — working for a Kuwaiti company operating in Iraq (news - web sites).

The group warned the company to stop its activities in Iraq. The hostages were later released after ransom was paid.

U.S. and Iraqi forces seized the abandoned concrete home in a small courtyard in the city's northern Jolan district on Wednesday.

Shortly afterward, Iraqi commander Maj. Gen. Abdul Qader Mohammed Jassem Mohan, announced some of the findings: hostages' documents, CDs showing captives being killed and black clothing worn by militants in videos.

Natonski said U.S. troops also found a computer, computer disks, and a large arms cache in the home, which included a living space and a kitchen.

"We are now currently exploiting the material that was found in the room to see and confirm whether this was in fact a room used for execution by the insurgents of innocent Iraqis and foreigners," he said.

He did not give any details on the identities of the hostages thought to have been kept there.

Marine intelligence officers are combing through the computer disks and other finds from the site, hoping to glean information on insurgents.

In another building, troops discovered an Iraqi man chained to a wall, the military said Thursday. The man, who was shackled at the ankles and wrists, bruised and starving, told Marines he was a taxi driver abducted 10 days earlier and that his captors beat him with cables.

Also, a Fox News reporter embedded with India Company of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment said the unit found five bodies in a locked house in northwest Fallujah on Wednesday. All the victims were shot in the back of the head. Their identities were not known, although there were indications they were civilians, the report said.

At least 10 foreigners are still in kidnappers' hands in Iraq, including British aid worker Margaret Hassan, French journalists Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot and an unidentified American worker for a Saudi company.

On Thursday, Al-Jazeera television aired a videotape showing what the station said was an American contractor of Lebanese origin held hostage in Iraq. The balding, middle-aged man, who carried a U.S. passport and an identification card in the name of Dean Sadek, was shown sitting in front of a green wall.

It was unclear when Sadek or where was kidnapped. Last week, the Interior Ministry said a Lebanese-American was seized by armed men from his home in the city's Mansour district but gave the name as Radim Sadeq. It could not be determined if he was the same person shown Thursday.

Fox News aired the footage of the 5 people but only showed their feet and etc...it was edited.