The Iraq thread 4

[turms 0]

They are not applying a refugee status becouse of death threats either..at least the writing didnt say so.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like the insurgents resented a lot more than her special treatment.

Did she give info.?

For example, a iraqi girl got medical treatment in the US and people in her family gave intel about the insurgency.

Is she a person in her family?  

(This reply surely falls into the "fighting stupidity with stupidity" category.)

[DracoPaladore 0]

US troops withdrawels from Europe

Quote[/b] ]Monday August 16, 05:26 AM

Bush to announce U.S. troop withdrawals

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush is expected to announce the withdrawal of about 70,000 troops from Europe and Asia in a major realignment of the U.S. military presence to better fight the war on terrorism.

Bush is to speak in Ohio, seen as one of the November election battleground states, to the Veterans of Foreign Wars to outline a major realignment of the U.S. military presence prompted by the end of the Cold War, U.S. officials said on Monday.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has said the changes will take years to put in place and did not expect large troop movements soon. But the realignment will mean big changes in long-standing arrangements with close allies and likely more U.S. troops on home soil, at a time when critics say the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts have stretched U.S. forces.

"The principal characteristics of all of them taken together are that we want greater usability of our forces, that we very likely will end up with more forces back in the United States, that we will be looking for flexibility and relationships so that we can rotate forces in, have exercises with various countries," Rumsfeld told reporters on Sunday as he returned from Europe and Asia.

U.S. officials said the changes will mean the withdrawal of about 70,000 troops from Europe and Asia, two regions where the United States has maintained a major presence since the end of the Second World War in 1945. In the Cold War era, the European forces, especially in Germany, were meant to be a counterweight to the threat posed by the Soviet Union's Warsaw Pact forces.

There are more than 100,000 U.S. troops in Europe, with 70,000 in Germany, and another 100,000 in the Pacific and Asia.

"There will be a shift from Germany, and we've talked to the Germans about that and some numbers, they are doing the same thing -- they're also readjusting their forces and they understand that," Rumsfeld said.

The proposed global realignment includes plans to use bases in Eastern European countries of the former Soviet bloc as transit points to quickly send forces from the United States to trouble spots such as the Middle East and northern Africa.

While many soldiers would be brought home from both Europe and Asia, sophisticated weaponry, including fighter planes, would be sent overseas to some bases to make up for the smaller number of deployed ground troops.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is she a person in her family?

Let me help you:

I posted this first:

Quote[/b] ]For example, a iraqi girl got medical treatment in the US and people in her family gave intel about the insurgency.

then he posted this:

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like the insurgents resented a lot more than her special treatment.

Which implied she was the one of the people that gave info and she did not.

Then replied:

Quote[/b] ]Did she give info.?

Which is no.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is she a person in her family?

Let me help you:  

I posted this first:

Quote[/b] ]For example, a iraqi girl got medical treatment in the US and people in her family gave intel about the insurgency.

then he posted this:

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like the insurgents resented a lot more than her special treatment.

Which implied she was the one of the people that gave info and she did not.

Then replied:

Quote[/b] ]Did she give info.?

Which is no.

This is getting absurd...

*She did not receive death threats

*Part of his family were in co-operation with US, thus part of the family is a target for the insurgents

So what is the fuzz in this?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]They are not applying a refugee status becouse of death threats either..at least the writing didnt say so.

Quote[/b] ]A 15-year-old Iraqi girl who came to America for medical treatment is seeking political asylum, claiming persecution at home because her family co-operated with the US military.

*various family members give info about the insurgency

*insurgents targets various member (cousin, uncle, and etc.)

*insurgents or somebody else paints basically death threats on the family's house (girl lives there, too).

* girls gets surgery in the USA and the insurgents are not big fans of the USA, now.

*this can lead the insurgents in to believing she is working with the americans and make her an target (surgery=reward for help) when she comes back.

[Balschoiw 0]

All that blabla about a single person means nothing when you have a major conflict going on, don´t you think billybob ?

Journalists ordered out of Najaf

Rule number one : No witnesses

Quote[/b] ]Journalists have been ordered out of the holy city of Najaf where fighters loyal to Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr have clashed with US and Iraqi forces.

Observers say the move indicates a major assault on the city is imminent.

"From now on this city is closed," a senior police officer told correspondents, who face arrest if they decide to stay on.

Security issues dominated a national conference in Baghdad which will choose an assembly ahead of elections.

Militants in shrine

The gathering at a venue in the city's high-security green zone continued despite a mortar attack nearby which caused several casualties.

Gunfire and mortar blasts could be heard in Najaf on Sunday following the government's pledge to resume military operations after talks on a ceasefire failed.

"One demonstrator was killed and two others were wounded by American fire from the cemetery," a surgeon told AFP news agency.

Fighters loyal to Mr Sadr are still holed up in the Imam Ali shrine - one of the holiest sites for Shia Muslims.

"A major assault by forces will be launched quickly to bring the Najaf fight to an end," said interior ministry spokesman Sabah Kadhim.

"This matter has to be brought to conclusion as fast as possible and we want to bring the situation to normalcy soon."

'Serious blow'

A correspondent for Iranian television, Mohammad Kazem, was held at gunpoint by police while broadcasting live from a rooftop.

The Paris-based media organisation, Reporters Without Borders has criticised the decision to ask journalists to leave the city.

The watchdog said the move was "a serious blow to press freedom" and expressed concern about "persistent episodes of censorship in Iraq".

Talks deadlock

Religious and political leaders who met on Sunday are due to elect a 100-member interim council ahead of free elections next year.

But Mr Sadr is boycotting the talks.

Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said in his opening speech that the conference was a "first step... to open up horizons of dialogue".

The interim council due to emerge will be tasked with monitoring the interim government and helping pave the way towards the first post-war elections in January.

The fighting on Sunday appears to be the first since a truce began on Friday after a week of fierce clashes between Shia gunmen loyal to Mr Sadr and the US-led forces.

Negotiations between Mr Sadr and the Iraqi government broke down on Saturday.

Mr Sadr said democracy could not prevail in Iraq while US forces were besieging Najaf, a city holy to all Muslims and the Shia in particular, and he rejected the conference in Baghdad.

"They call it a national conference, although it is not," he said on the Arabic satellite TV network al-Jazeera.

He is believed to be staying at the Imam Ali shrine where his Mehdi Army fighters are prominent among the armed groups which guard the shrine and religious schools.

The BBC's Matthew Price in Baghdad says that every day the stand-off in the city continues, Moqtada Sadr and his men gain more support across the country

I guess Najaf will be under heavy fire soon.

And there will be noone there to witness what really happens, except for the people in Najaf.

While:

Iraqis say soldiers rob them

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - On a scorching July night last year, the Abdullatif family was sleeping on the flat roof of their modest house to escape the heat. An explosion jolted them awake. U.S. troops on a counterinsurgency raid had blown open the front door. Military helicopters swooped down, so close they seemed almost to land on the roof.

U.S. troops armed with M-16s arrested Omar Abdullatif, then 17, his two brothers and their 63-year-old father, who suffers from dementia, as suspected terrorists.

As the troops searched the house, in Baghdad's al-Alam neighborhood, they broke open the locked, wooden chest in the parents' bedroom that held the family's savings, the Abdullatifs said.

Omar Abdullatif said he saw U.S. soldiers stuff several gold bracelets, necklaces, rings and about $3,500 in Iraqi dinars, into pockets underneath their body armor.

Like most Iraqis arrested by U.S. troops, the Abdullatifs ultimately were released and given a U.S. military document saying there were no charges against them. But they never recovered their cash and jewelry.

Early this month, Omar's mother, Razqya Hasan, 52, trekked to Iraq's Human Rights ministry. The ministry's guards would not let her in, telling her the agency had no authority over U.S. troops and that she would have to make her complaint elsewhere.

"I hate America for this," Hasan said shortly afterward as she served an American visitor a lunch of steamed rice, pickled vegetables and Iraqi bread. In U.S.-occupied Iraq, "It doesn't matter if you're innocent or not," she said.

The Abdullatifs are an example of what appears to be a widespread problem that U.S. military authorities have yet to address: alleged theft by U.S. troops, notably during night- time anti-guerrilla raids. For months, ordinary Iraqis have complained - to human rights monitors, Iraqi officials and journalists - about such thefts.

During the raids, there are seldom independent eyewitnesses and Iraqis held at gunpoint usually have no idea which soldiers or units are involved, making even cursory investigation of the allegations difficult.

Forty accounts of theft recorded in recent days by Newsday include complaints by the caretaker of a Coptic Christian church, the manager of a small hotel in Baghdad, an Iraqi police captain and a grain farmer.

A question of scale

The U.S. military describes cases of theft by U.S. troops as rare exceptions among the 135,000 soldiers here.

Despite repeated requests in the past 10 days, military spokesmen in Iraq had no direct comment on the theft allegations. A senior Pentagon spokesman, Bryan Whitman, said, "We set very high standards," and said any allegation of improper conduct would be investigated.

A Pentagon official said soldiers may confiscate items, such as weapons or money, from suspected insurgents if they believe the items could be used to aid the anti-U.S. resistance, but said they must note any seizure in after-action reports to superiors. Military rules and the Geneva Conventions require troops to issue receipts for items formally confiscated.

In Washington, the Army's Criminal Investigation Command says it has investigated 20 felony cases alleged against U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. So far, it has found credible evidence of a crime in 11 of the cases and referred them to the soldiers' units for adjudication, said Chris Grey, a spokesman for the command.

Other officials said they are confident that less serious cases are being handled at lower levels of the military system, but no centralized statistics exist to count them.

In Baghdad, allegations of theft abound. At each of two offices - the Human Rights Ministry and the Iraqi Assistance Center, an office that receives claims against U.S. forces - Iraqis arrived in recent days with claims of theft by troops at the rate of one every hour.

"Hundreds upon hundreds" of the 20,000 compensation claims filed in the past year with the Iraqi Assistance Center alleged theft by U.S. troops during raids, said a source closely familiar with the office, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

That center is one of 60 claim offices the U.S. military says have been set up throughout the country.

Abu Ghraib & accountability

While Army spokesmen describe theft as rare, other officers said they do not know its scope. Officers in the U.S.-run prison system "have no idea what happens between arrests [of Iraqis] and detention" in the prisons, said an Army officer involved in the claims process. To make sure that property is not improperly taken from Iraqis being arrested as suspected enemies, "You have to count on the honesty and integrity of people," said the officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Even for property that soldiers formally confiscate from Iraqis and report to senior officers, the U.S. accounting system may have been inadequate for months, the officer suggested. Of Iraqis detained and then freed, he said, "I am sure many claimants have slipped through that probably did not get everything they wanted back."

Since the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in April, there has been "high accountability" surrounding Iraqi detainees' property that is formally confiscated and logged within the prison system, the officer said. But he added, "I can't tell you exactly what the process was before."

Human rights monitors in Baghdad say the scope of the alleged thefts may never be known because many Iraqis fear to file claims with U.S. authorities.

Theft "is systematic," said Paola Gasparoli, a researcher with the International Occupation Watch Center, a pacifist human rights monitoring group. The center studied cases of a dozen Iraqi families who reported that U.S. troops "took away money and never returned it," Gasparoli said.

Some of those cases also were documented by the Christian Peacemaking Team, another monitoring group. It said 25 of 72 families it surveyed late last year reported having been robbed by troops.

In Baghdad, a public perception of widespread theft by troops has angered many Iraqis who mockingly say their so-called liberators are "Ali Babas" - Iraqi slang for thieves.

"After the fall of Saddam Hussein, the Americans were welcomed everywhere," said Ismaeel Dawood, an activist with an Iraqi group, the National Association for the Defense of Human Rights in Iraq. "There was no hatred. Now people don't trust Americans. The thefts and violence had a lot to do with it."

Public resentment

The Christian Peacemaking Team, a U.S.-based group that includes many Mennonites and Quakers, has monitored the U.S. occupation since its start. It said the reported thefts by troops have contributed to Iraqis' resentment over the presence of U.S. forces.

"It is clear that hearts and minds are lost, and that some Iraqis who previously supported U.S. presence and actions in Iraq no longer do and may be more willing to support those who are involved in active resistance," the group said in a report last month.

"I would suspect that in the context of a house raid, they're confiscating stuff that's used for the resistance, the money that's used to fund the resistance," said Sheila Provencher, a Catholic lay minister on the Christian Peacemaking Team. However, she said, "You can't use that excuse when you're taking jewelry."

"I think the line between confiscation and theft gets blurred," she added. "From the experience of the person getting raided, it's theft." Asked about the Army's acknowledgment of about 20 known cases of theft, Provencher laughed. "You're sure they don't mean 20 just this week?" she asked. "Maybe they mean 20,000. I'm serious, thousands."

An Iraqi who served as an interpreter for U.S. troops last year and accompanied them on raids said he saw them steal, and that thefts are a pattern. He still works for U.S. authorities and asked not to be identified for fear of being fired.

Iraqi Human Rights Minister Bakhtiar Amin also hears reports of theft by soldiers. "We don't know the truth of them," he said. "People are saying that their jewelry ... their money has been taken in raids."

Shaky system of informants

The grinding insurgency in Iraq places U.S. troops daily in situations where they are raiding an Iraqi home and arresting civilians whom they assume to be "the enemy." A basic U.S. tactic is to use informants - who often are paid as much as $2,500 for tips - to point out possible anti-coalition guerrillas and sympathizers, whose homes then are raided late at night.

But even pro-American Iraqis say the system of informants is deeply flawed. In a country with 50 percent unemployment, where most people struggle for the basics of life, the promise of U.S. dollars can attract bad information as well as good.

And Iraqis say many tipsters have been turning in neighbors, rivals or co-workers as alleged anti-U.S. militants because of personal vendettas, tribal disputes and sectarian or political differences.

"The Iraqi people learned from the time of Saddam to make up stories about their neighbors for the authorities," said Songul Chapook, 42, a former member of the U.S.-appointed interim Governing Council.

U.S. troops raided the Abdullatif family on the basis of an informant's tip that ultimately went unproven. And as they burst into the home, they clearly viewed the Abdullatifs, who are Sunni Arabs, as foes.

"The first question one of the soldiers asked was, 'Are you Sunni or Shia?'" recalled Omar Abdullatif, who speaks fluent English. "My brother said, 'It makes no difference. We are Iraqi.'"

"Sunni is my enemy," Abdullatif said the soldier responded. "Shia is my friend."

The soldiers said a paid informant had told them the Abdulatiffs belonged to Ansar al-Islam, a mainly Kurdish radical group linked to al-Qaida.

Omar's father and two brothers, Ahmed, 25, an engineer, and Ali, 29, were held for five days. The ailing father spent most of that time in a military hospital, the family said.

Beatings and torture

Omar Abdullatif spent 88 days in U.S. detention as Enemy Prisoner of War No. 0374509. He said he endured beatings and torture as he was shuttled among U.S.-run jails.

Once, he said, troops forced him to stare into the high-beam headlights of a car from dusk to midnight without closing his eyes or moving his head. They made him repeatedly drop to his knees and then get up, until the flesh of his kneecaps was torn.

For a three-day stretch, he said, he was denied food, water and sleep. On the third day, he was handed a bottle of water.

"I would see Omar in my dreams," his mother said during lengthy interviews with the family. "I knew he was being tortured."

Abdullatif, whose round face makes him look like an adolescent, is recovering from the torture, but the family has seen no progress in recovering their savings. He showed a visitor the scuffed wooden chest he said had been pried open by soldiers the morning of the raid. "I saw them stuffing money and my mother's gold necklaces, bracelets and rings into their pockets," he said. "I could not believe what I was seeing."

After his mother was bluntly rebuffed in her effort to lodge a complaint at the Human Rights Ministry, she was at a loss to determine the family's next step. Ministry employees did not even mention the Iraqi Assistance Center, in the U.S.-controlled Green Zone, which receives claims such as theirs.

Without a receipt

Even claims submitted at the assistance center have virtually no chance of being considered unless the Iraqi complainant has a receipt for the missing property issued by U.S. troops.

But by all accounts, when soldiers on a raid crash into the living rooms of supposed Iraqi insurgents, their first orders are usually along the line of "Shut up or you're dead." Few people being held at gunpoint ask for receipts for money or valuables the soldiers may be gathering.

U.S. military rules and the Geneva Conventions require soldiers to give receipts, but human rights advocates and even military officials say this is often neglected.

"I've been here seven and a half months, and CPT [the Christian Peacemaking Team] has been here a year and a half, and in all that time ... I would say the examples of getting your property back, those are the isolated incidents, unfortunately," Provencher said.

"The Geneva Conventions right now are just words in Iraq," Gasparoli said.

Those Iraqis who discover the existence of a formal claims office must make their way into the Green Zone of Baghdad - passing through a lengthy obstacle course of checkpoints and body searches. The office is disorganized, with heaps of paper files scattered on tables and cabinets. Four people process claims from 8:30 a.m. to 4 p.m., but not on Fridays or holidays, or when there is tightened security because of a visiting U.S. official, or government meeting nearby.

A steady stream of people "come here saying soldiers stole from them. ... If they have no proof, we cannot help them," an Iraqi staff member said.

Like most Iraqis, the Abdullatif family did not know that U.S. soldiers are required to issue receipts, and in the middle of the night last July, they did not dream of demanding one.

When Omar was released in October, he asked for the return of the cash and jewelry from his parents' wooden chest. The U.S. officers administering his release denied any theft occurred.

"When I told them I saw soldiers steal my family's money, one of them yelled, 'American soldiers are not thieves.'"

Staff writer Craig Gordon in the Washington bureau contributed to this story.

Legislating wartime theft

Here are provisions of international treaties that prohibit theft by soldiers in wartime:

Pillage is prohibited (Article 33, 4th Geneva Convention).

Private property may not be confiscated (Article 46.2, 1907 Hague Convention No. 4).

An army of occupation can only take possession of cash, funds and realizable securities which are strictly the property of the State (Article 53, 1907 Hague Convention No. 4).

In addition, persons deprived of their liberty shall be permitted to retain articles of personal use. Valuables may not be taken from them except in accordance with an established procedure and receipts must be issued (Article 18, Third Geneva Convention and Article 97, Fourth Geneva Convention

The best of the best....

experts in winning heart and mind and robbing people.

Man... this will certainly help to improve the situation a lot

[Badgerboy 0]

Any problem with that Bals, is that every armed force has privateering bastards like that. It's been happening for thousands of years, and I think it's set to continue for a good few years yet. This by no means reflects my opinion on the matter. Looting and pillaging is illegal under civil and military law, and those caught should be punished. The problem occurs when pumped up young men with weapons have the opportunity to enrich themselves quickly with little risk to themselves.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Any problem with that Bals, is that every armed force has privateering bastards like that. It's been happening for thousands of years, and I think it's set to continue for a good few years yet. This by no means reflects my opinion on the matter. Looting and pillaging is illegal under civil and military law, and those caught should be punished. The problem occurs when pumped up young men with weapons have the opportunity to enrich themselves quickly with little risk to themselves.

But in a professional military the NCOs and officers (mainly the officers) should curb and control as far as possible these tendancies. Which the US Army does not seem to be doing, at all.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sounds like the insurgents resented a lot more than her special treatment.

Which implied she was the one of the people that gave info...

No it does not.  And I still can't believe how seriously you are taking all this.  

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]No it does not. And I still can't believe how seriously you are taking all this.

Well, billybob panically tries to make a point where he has little to make...

You´ll get used to it after a while

billybobism or FSism, you know the deal

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you honestly believe that it is merely a lack of courage that prevents others from turning in their fathers?  

(Guess you and your dad didn't get along too well.  )

I called him brave because his action has likely signed an death warrant for him.

But Iraqis turning evidence on fellow Iraqis is already happening a lot.  I don't see what's so special about this particular case if it was not the fact that he turned in his own father and which you even highlighted using bold type in the original article.

[Bernadotte 0]

Well, billybob panically tries to make a point where he has little to make...

You´ll get used to it after a while  

billybobism or FSism, you know the deal  

There's...

Quote[/b] ]bob·ble

v.  To bob up and down.

v. tr.  To lose one's grip on momentarily.

n.  A mistake or blunder.

and then there's...

Quote[/b] ]bil·ly·bob·ble

n.  An insubstantial comment that can be tossed about in debate ad nauseum being devoid of any intellectual inertia.

[HKFlash 9]

An intersting matter, but I think some people are missing the point of this war. I remeber when i saw a Vietnam War movie in which a US Soldier, violated a vietnamese woman, because the vietcong soldiers killed some US soldiers of the guy that violated the woman. (im being a bit confusing now :P) When you see your families, your friends or your friendly soldiers die, it doesnt matter the target as long as it is of the enemy race.

Abugraib prison case was in fact a disaster. Apparently that torture was planned even before the war started. It were the US secret serviçes agencies that did request the soldiers to torture the Iraqis that way. However if i was a soldier, godamn i would never do that.

The bombing were a partial disaster though. In the beggining few civilians were hit by bombs. I think it was worst in Afeghanistan.

The marine shot the unarmed Iraqui civilian. I can say that he needs more psycological support, so when he sees his soldiers being shot down, he doesnt say "f*** this, f*** these Iraqis" and starts shooting every Iraq when he get a chance.

Also, the resistence fighters arent going anywhere. Using terrorism as a weapon is the first mistake of many.

Many Iraqui people are blind and ignorant, they just follow the orders of their religious leaders that want Iraq. And when those leaders get to power, they establish dictatorial regimes, and people start hating him and then war starts.

To be honest some people here, were probably never in the military for more than a year, and never went to war. Attacking civilians and torturing arent the correct atitudes for sure. But when you start to fell fear, you shoot evrything that looks suspicious.

BTW, the niece case. It was her fault. It could have been a terrorist remember? And then kaboom! 3 american soldiers go home...in a bodybag. Everyone must follow the rules to prevent terror.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]But when you start to fell fear, you shoot evrything that looks suspicious.

They are soldiers, they are trained, they have to follow law more than anyone else. If they shoot around in panic or loot homes they have no place in any civilized army on this planet.

And the worst thing you can do in a tight situation is to shoot. That´s a thing anyone with combat experience knows. It escalates the situation and you lose control.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Well, billybob panically tries to make a point where he has little to make...

You´ll get used to it after a while  

billybobism or FSism, you know the deal  

If I just follow your posts, I would be lead to believe that the americans troops are the modern day SS.

Quote[/b] ]I don't see what's so special about this particular case if it was not the fact that he turned in his own father and which you even highlighted using bold type in the original article.

Quote[/b] ]But Iraqis turning evidence on fellow Iraqis is already happening a lot.

First, I put likely. Second, I tried to use that iraqi girl story has an example because she is afraid that she would be targeted by insurgents if she came back (the insurgents will even target teenager/kids). Furthermore, people in her family gave intel, like that boy did, and became targets for the insurgents after doing so. Lastly, I was trying to prove a point that not everyone is a al-sadr supporter/insurgent-fan or hates the coalition.

[Bernadotte 0]

the insurgents will even target teenager/kids

But do they target wedding parties?

Did Hitler's SS even target wedding parties?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]But do they target wedding parties?

Did Hitler's SS even target wedding parties?

Do you think the US military wants to target purposely the innocent children, women, and men.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

the insurgents will even target teenager/kids

But do they target wedding parties?

Did Hitler's SS even target wedding parties?

I resent the comment. Whatever the US Army has done, it doesn't even come close to what the Nazis have done.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]But do they target wedding parties?

Did Hitler's SS even target wedding parties?

Do you think the US military wants to target purposely the innocent children, women, and men.

Did I mention the US Army?  

[Bernadotte 0]

the insurgents will even target teenager/kids

But do they target wedding parties?

Did Hitler's SS even target wedding parties?

I resent the comment. Whatever the US Army has done, it doesn't even come close to what the Nazis have done.

And yet you seem to have no problem with someone posting an accusation like this:

If I just follow your posts, I would be lead to believe that the americans troops are the modern day SS.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Did I mention the US Army?

I guess you were talking about the US Army. At the end you put:

[Bernadotte 0]

You guessed wrong.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

And yet you seem to have no problem with someone posting an accusation like this:

If you do look at a lot his posts are: torture by americans; massacre by americans; innocent civilians killed by americans soldiers; calling the insurgents "freedom fighters" (what does that make the US military and the coalition); "no witnesses" and etc.

I'm saying that if you only follow his post and not various news sources, you will be lead to believe that they are the modern day SS. I'm not saying he purposely saying that the US military=SS but he is not painting them in a good light what so ever (in this thread).

[Bernadotte 0]

If you do look at a lot his posts are: torture by americans; massacre by americans; innocent civilians killed by americans soldiers; calling the insurgents "freedom fighters" (what does that make the US military and the coalition); "no witnesses" and etc.

I'm saying that if you only fellow his post and not various news sources, you will be lead to believe that they are the modern day SS.

Whatever the US Army has done, it doesn't even come close to what the Nazis have done.