The Iraq thread 4

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040811/i/r2856601937.jpg

Filipino workers applying for job openings in Iraq (news - web sites) rally in Manila's Makati financial district, August 11, 2004. The protesters demanded the government allow labor deployment to the war-torn country. REUTERS/Cheryl Ravelo

wow

[bucket man 2]

Quote[/b] ]You just have to think if I was an Iraqi and...(my wife and daughters were killed in an air bombing or my brother tortured in Abu Gharib or my little niece shot in the car because she didn`t see the checkpoint) what would i have done?

Why are there checkpoints or air bombings or incidents that happened at Abu Gharib? If some those people are fighting against the coalition because of this, they are fighting against the wrong people.

So it was Al Qaeda who dropped those LGB's from F-18 Hornets or made checkpoints? Or was it Al Qaeda torturing prisoners in Abu Gharib?

The life of average iraqi was not so badly affected by Saddams dictatorship. Atleast as long as the average iraqi understood not to yell hes political views to everone.

So now he has the freedom to say what he wants and not tragged in front of the firing squad but maybe he goes to jail. But the price he payed was, and is constant fear, bossibly dead relatives and friends, no electricity, no clean water and he cant go to the market without Al Qaeda blowing a car bomb or US soldiers shooting at him.

Nice trade off.

[bn880 5]

So now he has the freedom to say what he wants and not tragged in front of the firing squad but maybe he goes to jail. But the price he payed was, and is constant fear, bossibly dead relatives and friends, no electricity, no clean water and he cant go to the market without Al Qaeda blowing a car bomb or US soldiers shooting at him.

Nice trade off.

Not even entirely true either, if you start yelling your anti coalition views in some parts of Iraq you may end up getting killed, detained, have your organization shut down etc. Other side of the fence, but similar approach.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why are there checkpoints or air bombings or incidents that happened at Abu Gharib?

Well gee Billy,maybe it`s because the president of USA started an unjust war that led to tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths and a follow up occupation of a once sovereign country equally bloody fuelling in the same time anger at the US military forces and suport for the Iraqi resistance.

But forget that,humour me.Why did they tortured the Abu Gharib prisoners is such a barbaric way?Or why were the air bombings conducted in such a brutal manner that they ended up being the number one reason of Iraqi civillian fatalities?

Quote[/b] ]If some those people are fighting against the coalition because of this, they are fighting against the wrong people

You might be the Dalai Lama,but having your wife and children crushed under a pile of ruble or your entire familly wiped out at a wedding as result of "precision strikes" is valid enough reasons for some to fight against an occupation.

One could say even more valid then the reasoning of the US marine who asked his comrades to back off so that he could shoot the uarmed Iraqi "bastard" in revenge for the Marines who died in Al-Anbar province at the hand of his countryman who most likely had no connection what so ever with him.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]But forget that,humour me.Why did they tortured the Abu Gharib prisoners is such a barbaric way?Or why were the air bombings conducted in such a brutal manner that they ended up being the number one reason of Iraqi civillian fatalities?

Barbaric? I agree with that it was torture but it was no way in hell the same what saddam's folks did.

Quote[/b] ]

You might be the Dalai Lama,but having your wife and children crushed under a pile of ruble or your entire familly wiped out at a wedding as result of "precision strikes" is valid enough reasons for some to fight against an occupation.

I know what you mean...the us military purposely targeted that place because civilians lived there.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]But forget that,humour me.Why did they tortured the Abu Gharib prisoners is such a barbaric way?Or why were the air bombings conducted in such a brutal manner that they ended up being the number one reason of Iraqi civillian fatalities?

Barbaric? I agree with that it was torture but it was no way in hell the same what saddam's folks did.

Well, actually there are reports of soldiers "ripping up" people who clearly gave up or were not a threat, this to a point where their body parts were gone, including foreheads etc. (with guns/tanks of course).

Is that not barbaric either? I wonder how you explain unarmed people being torn appart by bullets, with their only sin being at the wrong place at the wrong time (and being Arabic).

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Barbaric..It was no way in hell the same what saddam's folks did.

Billy does it give you a personal satisfaction to ignore the essence in my questions and nitpick the hell out of them with flawed comparations?

I am feeling extra nice tonight Billy so I am going to answer you as polite as possible even though I should just ignore your immature retorics.

If I remember corectly we went through the same thing a while ago,regardless,I am going to explain it once more."Saddam did worst" may have worked between two 13 years old children "debating" the war but as I consider myself a mature person and I sincerly hope you are too we should both realise that horrible crimes will never justify other crimes less horrible as the fact that Hitler is responsible for hundreads times more deaths then Saddam,does not make the Iraqi dictator a nice person.

Quote[/b] ]I know what you mean...the us military purposely targeted that place because civilians lived there.

No it`s actually cristal clear for me that you have absolutley no idea what I mean.

I`ve never said that US miltary purposely targeted Iraqi civillians but you see premedited or not the airstrike still had the same end result in innocent life cost.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]No it`s actually cristal clear for me that you have absolutley no idea what I mean.

I`ve never said that US miltary purposely targeted Iraqi civillians but you see premedited or not the airstrike still had the same end result in innocent life costs.

Sarcasm. You have to sit down to think why did the americans dropped bombs on me (if innocent) and should I fight the "evil americans". Hopefully, you come to conclusion that your actions of fighting the americans are only going to cause two more things.....more deaths (and deaths of many more civilians like you) and longer stay of many americans.

Quote[/b] ]Even though we went through this a while ago I am going to explain this once more."Saddam did worst" might have worked between two 13 years old children but as I consider myself a mature person and I sincerly hope you are too we should both realise that horrible crimes will never justify other as the fact that Hitler is responsible for hundreads times more deaths then Saddam,does not make the Iraqi dictator a nice person.

I called it torture and is not on-par in what Saddam's folks did... like certain people say that there is levels of evil  

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]You have to sit down to think why did the americans dropped bombs on me (if innocent) and should I fight the "evil americans". Hopefully, you come to conclusion that your actions of fighting the americans are only going to cause two more thing.....more deaths (and deaths of many more civilians like you) and longer stay of many americans.

Did Bush sit down and think about the carnage he caused in Iraq?About the 50,000 Iraqis who would have been alive today had not been for his decissions.About the innocent mothers,fathers, sons and daughters killed as the ultimate result of his order to attack Iraq?

It`s funny how you expect the Iraqis to master the "wisdom" of siting down and thinking if the 5,000 pounds of bomb dropped on their homes was intended to be the killer of their famillies or not but you do not have any sort of outcry towards Bush actions, do you know.

And guess what Billy,the war and the follow up occupation were premeditated,everything there after are the direct consequences of that day when Bush ordered the US army to mobilise and start the war against Iraq.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Roadside blast kills UK soldier

Breaking news

A British soldier has died after an improvised explosive detonated at the side of a road in the Iraqi city of Basra, the Ministry of Defence said.Another soldier was seriously injured in the attack on Thursday, Major Tim Smith confirmed.It is the second death of a British soldier this week, bringing the total toll to 64 since the Iraq war began.Private Lee O'Callaghan, 20, was killed on 9 August when British troops came under fire in Basra.

"When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'One more soldier reporting, sir...

I've served my time in hell"

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]You have to sit down to think why did the americans dropped bombs on me (if innocent) and should I fight the "evil americans". Hopefully, you come to conclusion that your actions of fighting the americans are only going to cause two more thing.....more deaths (and deaths of many more civilians like you) and longer stay of many americans.

Did Bush sit down and think about the carnage he caused in Iraq?About the 50,000 Iraqis who would have been alive today had not been for his decissions.About the innocent mothers,fathers, sons and daughters killed as the ultimate result of his order to attack Iraq?

It`s funny how you expect the Iraqis to master the "wisdom" of siting down and thinking if the 5,000 pounds of bomb dropped on their homes was intended to be the killer of their famillies or not but you do not have any sort of outcry towards Bush actions, do you know.

And guess what Billy,the war and the follow up occupation were premeditated,everything there after are the direct consequences of that day when Bush ordered the US army to mobilise and start the war against Iraq.

Did Saddam sit down and think about the carnage he caused when he gassed those Kurds?  Hell, we could have saved countless lives by bringing Saddam out of power.

War is hell, there aren't just casualties on each side, but there are also civilian casualties, and when you see civilians in the street when shit is hitting the fan, it's their fault, not the Apache helicopter that sees 30 armed men holding AK-47's amd five or six un armed people packed up with them, he is acting on the "It's either him or me" instinct (Yes, small arms can take a helicopter down).  The militia are also sending innocent Women and Children with explosives strapped to them into American checkpoints, and don't forget that those civilians are being killed by all of these car bombs from the militia supposedely trying to free the Iraqi people.

Quote[/b] ]They are getting quite ingenious with IED's. When I was there recently we were waiting at a checkpoint, waiting to get processed thru and this iraqi boy of about 13 comes walking past. Now for those of you who dont know the americans have a series of white lines at the checkpoints that you dont proceed past until you have been identified and so on. So on walks this iraqi boy straight past the white lines and into the kill zone anyway to cut along story short they took the iraqi boy down without firing a shot and found that he had been strapped with a suicide vest. It turned out that the boy was stupid and could barely understand arabic let alone english and that is way he didnt stop. Apparently the insurgent/militia abducted him from his home strapped the vest onto him and sent him on his way. Just goes to show the lengths these people go to.

[Bernadotte 0]

"When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'One more soldier reporting, sir...

I've served my time in hell"

Good idea, Wilco.

Let's have a rhyme contest.

Ok, here's my first:

When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'If ya see a guy named Bush

please tell him to go to hell.'

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Did Saddam sit down and think about the carnage he caused when he gassed those Kurds?

And on and on with this redundant statments from people just like you Wilco.Fantastic,you are better then Saddam if that is what you are trying to proove.

But how does it justify the deaths of 50,000 Iraqis in this war-everything it`s ok just as long as you don`t hit Saddam`s death counter?Let me re-iterate what I`ve told Billy one page ago:

"Saddam did worst" may have worked between two 13 years old children "debating" the war but as I consider myself a mature person and I sincerly hope you are too we should both realise that horrible crimes will never justify other crimes less horrible as the fact that Hitler is responsible for hundreads times more deaths then Saddam,does not make the Iraqi dictator a nice person."

Quote[/b] ]Hell, we could have saved countless lives by bringing Saddam out of power.

You didn`t.On the contrary,after promising to help the Shia rebellion in 1991 you`ve left thousands of Shias sloughtered by Saddam`s army hence breaking your promise.

And if what is happening now is what you call saving "countless lives",well then may God help us all

It`s also a tad ironic how people like you seem to be changing their opinions about Iraq everyime something seems to be turning in oposing direction with what Bush told you.

First it was Iraq`s WMD-the biggest threat in the world.That didn`t work out well.Then it turned into a known Al-Queda ally. Needless to say it didn`t take long for that to crumble.

And now it`s the big humanitarian war?Disregarding the known fact that there was no threat of a humanitarian disaster in Iraq,you are doing a shity job anyway by any standards.

Quote[/b] ]War is hell, there aren't just casualties on each side, but there are also civilian casualties, and when you see civilians in the street when shit is hitting the fan, it's their fault,

No,Wilco I beg to difer.Maybe it is so in a twisted world imagined by yourself but in reality it`s not civillians fault if they are killed in their own homes,because you see they are suposed to be there,in the country they were born in,on their own propriety for which they worked their entire lifes in contrast with the US soldiers who are an unwanted occupying force in Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]The militia are also sending innocent Women and Children with explosives strapped to them into American checkpoints

An absolut blatant lie.There hasn`t been one suicide bombing in Kut,Najaf or wherever the Mahdi army is uprising so I recomand you stop spewing this worthless comments.

In the end I am tempted to draw the conclusion that you`re not even worth it.A man who thinks Iraq is the titanic battleground between US soldiers who have God on their side and the Iraqis who are doomed to burn in the eternal flames of hell is beyond my reach.

[Wilco 944]

"When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'One more soldier reporting, sir...

I've served my time in hell"

Good idea, Wilco.

Let's have a rhyme contest.

Ok, here's my first:

When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'If ya see a guy named Bush

please tell him to go to hell.'

He was a British soldier

So he can tell the Queen or Tony Blair to go to hell.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Did Saddam sit down and think about the carnage he caused when he gassed those Kurds?

And on and on with this redundant statments from people just like you Wilco.Fantastic,you are better then Saddam if that is what you are trying to proove.

But how does it justify the deaths of 50,000 Iraqis in this war-everything it`s ok just as long as you don`t hit Saddam`s death counter?Let me re-iterate what I`ve told Billy one page ago:

"Saddam did worst" may have worked between two 13 years old children "debating" the war but as I consider myself a mature person and I sincerly hope you are too we should both realise that horrible crimes will never justify other crimes less horrible as the fact that Hitler is responsible for hundreads times more deaths then Saddam,does not make the Iraqi dictator a nice person."

Quote[/b] ]Hell, we could have saved countless lives by bringing Saddam out of power.

You didn`t.On the contrary,after promising to help the Shia rebellion in 1991 you`ve left thousands of Shias sloughtered by Saddam`s army hence breaking your promise.

And if what is happening now is what you call saving "countless lives",well then may God help us all  

It`s also a tad ironic how people like you seem to be changing their opinions about Iraq everyime something seems to be turning in oposing direction with what Bush told you.

First it was Iraq`s WMD-the biggest threat in the world.That didn`t work out well.Then it turned into a known Al-Queda ally. Needless to say it didn`t take long for that to crumble.

And now it`s the big humanitarian war?Disregarding the known fact that there was no threat of a humanitarian disaster in Iraq,you are doing a shity job anyway by any standards.

Quote[/b] ]War is hell, there aren't just casualties on each side, but there are also civilian casualties, and when you see civilians in the street when shit is hitting the fan, it's their fault,

No,Wilco I beg to difer.Maybe it is so in a twisted world imagined by yourself but in reality it`s not civillians fault if they are killed in their own homes,because you see they are suposed to be there,in the country they were born in,on their own propriety for which they worked their entire lifes in contrast with the US soldiers who are an unwanted occupying force in Iraq.  

Quote[/b] ]The militia are also sending innocent Women and Children with explosives strapped to them into American checkpoints

An absolut blatant lie.There hasn`t been one suicide bombing in Kut,Najaf or wherever the Mahdi army is uprising so I recomand you stop spewing this worthless comments.

In the end I am tempted to draw the conclusion that you`re not even worth it.A man who thinks Iraq is the titanic battleground between US soldiers who have God on their side and the Iraqis who are doomed to burn in the eternal flames of hell is beyond my reach.

Hm...your good,

Quote[/b] ]No,Wilco I beg to difer.Maybe it is so in a twisted world imagined by yourself but in reality it`s not civillians fault if they are killed in their own homes,because you see they are suposed to be there,in the country they were born in,on their own propriety for which they worked their entire lifes in contrast with the US soldiers who are an unwanted occupying force in Iraq.  

I never said about their homes, I said people blatanly walking in the street when they KNOW that there is a firefight going on and they're watching it and walking in and out of crossfire and the killzone.  I don't live in a twisted world, so understand that, War isn't perfect, nothing is perfect, no matter what civilians are going to get killed, and you and I both know that.  Wars take battlegrounds, and with modern warfare, those battlegrounds are going to be cities and towns just like ours, your not going to see vast battlefields and armies in formation, your going to see guerilla warfare and unconventional tactics like suicide bombings and car bombs, like we see today.

There have been a few suicide bombing foils and a few that have gone off in cities in Iraq, maybe not in those certain cities, but in some other towns or cities.

Quote[/b] ]They are getting quite ingenious with IED's. When I was there recently we were waiting at a checkpoint, waiting to get processed thru and this iraqi boy of about 13 comes walking past. Now for those of you who dont know the americans have a series of white lines at the checkpoints that you dont proceed past until you have been identified and so on. So on walks this iraqi boy straight past the white lines and into the kill zone anyway to cut along story short they took the iraqi boy down without firing a shot and found that he had been strapped with a suicide vest. It turned out that the boy was stupid and could barely understand arabic let alone english and that is way he didnt stop. Apparently the insurgent/militia abducted him from his home strapped the vest onto him and sent him on his way. Just goes to show the lengths these people go to.

So, your saying this man is lying?

Also, about this

Quote[/b] ]

In the end I am tempted to draw the conclusion that you`re not even worth it.A man who thinks Iraq is the titanic battleground between US soldiers who have God on their side and the Iraqis who are doomed to burn in the eternal flames of hell is beyond my reach.

You don't have a patriotic feeling for your soldiers? I don't know what country you are from, but you must hate war of any kind, myself and hundreds of thousands of others would rather see our troops prevail over an enemy in a war, who wouldn't?

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Roadside blast kills UK soldier

Breaking news

A British soldier has died after an improvised explosive detonated at the side of a road in the Iraqi city of Basra, the Ministry of Defence said.Another soldier was seriously injured in the attack on Thursday, Major Tim Smith confirmed.It is the second death of a British soldier this week, bringing the total toll to 64 since the Iraq war began.Private Lee O'Callaghan, 20, was killed on 9 August when British troops came under fire in Basra.

"When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'One more soldier reporting, sir...

I've served my time in hell"

I think you are jumping to conclusions.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]Roadside blast kills UK soldier

Breaking news

A British soldier has died after an improvised explosive detonated at the side of a road in the Iraqi city of Basra, the Ministry of Defence said.Another soldier was seriously injured in the attack on Thursday, Major Tim Smith confirmed.It is the second death of a British soldier this week, bringing the total toll to 64 since the Iraq war began.Private Lee O'Callaghan, 20, was killed on 9 August when British troops came under fire in Basra.

"When he reaches the gates of Heaven,

to Saint Peter he will tell,

'One more soldier reporting, sir...

I've served my time in hell"

I think you are jumping to conclusions.  

Jumping to conclusions that a British soldier was killed in combat?

[bn880 5]

no

and calling Iraq hell is not jumping too far either IMO. but the rest is.

[Wilco 944]

Hell-The battlefield, could be any battlefield.

Is this better for you?

Quote[/b] ]REGIMENTAL PRAYER

Almighty, merciful, and loving Father,

you are the one who hears all our prayers and grants our petitions.

We ask you to remember, as we do,

the tremendous sacrifice made by those who went before us.

They have given their lives so that we might live and breathe freely.

We ask you to receive them into your hands.

Father, give us the strength and wisdom to learn from their example,

to uphold freedom and life at home and around the world.

Keep us vigilant as we guard the frontiers of freedom.

Give our leaders the wisdom and the strength to lead well.

Grant all of us courage and confidence.

Be, for all of us, troopers, a wise counsel in keeping peace

and a strong shield for us against our enemies.

Oh heavenly Father, give us the determination

that the peace and freedom won at such a high price be lasting!

Father, hold all of the troopers in the palm of your almighty hand

and protect them in the shadow of your wings.

Amen.

[bn880 5]

Look, I'm not going to get all into Religious issues here, I think you can get the jest and jist of what I meant there. I have no doubt being a troop in Iraq can be considered "hell", but beyond that, keep dreaming.

[turms 0]

I like especially this part:

Quote[/b] ]Give our leaders the wisdom and the strength to lead well.

keep on praying, maybe a miracle will happen :P

EDIT: whats wrong wilco, cant handle it alone? milphotos.net

[Wilco 944]

You can't even recognize a United Kingdom soldier and let a Regimental Prayer go without getting into a pissing contest about what the hell the lines say.

That is pathetic

[turms 0]

I would treat equally a islamic prayer promising 70 virgins for a killer that dies in combat. If you want to pray, pray somewhere else.

[bn880 5]

Exactly...

[Wilco 944]

Boy oh boy...let's get off of that subject then, because our thoughts are completely different.

What do you guys think about militia held up in the Imam Ali Shrine compound?  What actions should/could be taken to get the militia out and keep the Holy Site intact?