Warsaw Uprising

[Grizzlie 0]

Sixty years ago, the citizens of Warsaw, rose up and rebelled against their Nazi occupiers. Despite valiant efforts, they were defeated in 63 days of vicious street-to-street fighting.

Till today thare r "pros" and "cons" disputed. But for us it is date as important as D-day for Western Allies.

Some facts...

[bn880 5]

It is infact one of the sickest events of WWII, but sadly I think people have not changed, politics is still more important that reality/human lives today.

It seems that Poles always get suckered into these situations, last one being the Iraq war, how stupid do your leaders have to be.

[Gordy 0]

It is infact one of the sickest events of WWII, but sadly I think people have not changed, politics is still more important that reality/human lives today.

It seems that Poles always get suckered into these situations, last one being the Iraq war, how stupid do your leaders have to be.  

meaning?

[bn880 5]

Well, what is written there. Maybe you forget who thought Germany would never invade, or who believed the Russians would help, or who thought going to Iraq was smart. Foolish idiots leading Poland, more like naive.

Edit: Not that it is saying anything nice about old germany, russia or the US. don't count out England, they were weasels in WW2 as well, not to mention today as they went to Iraq.

[Gordy 0]

I agree with that decision. Going to Iraq, I mean.

[Tovarish 0]

Edit: Not that it is saying anything nice about old germany, russia or the US.     don't count out England, they were weasels in WW2 as well, not to mention today as they went to Iraq.

In all fairness, I don't think you can paint the leadership of the western allies of WWII with the same brush as the Nazi's or the Soviets at that time, except for some notable exeptions such as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I'll shut up about that now .

[bn880 5]

Okay, well I was just making a point about bad leadership, we have the Iraq threads.

But basically for Poland "Umiesz liczyc, licz na siebie", I think you can agree to that now. (if you know how to count, count on yourself.)

[bn880 5]

Edit: Not that it is saying anything nice about old germany, russia or the US. don't count out England, they were weasels in WW2 as well, not to mention today as they went to Iraq.

In all fairness, I don't think you can paint the leadership of the western allies of WWII with the same brush as the Nazi's or the Soviets at that time, except for some notable exeptions such as Hiroshima and Nagasaki that, but I'll shut up about that now .

No not the same brush, but still, they did carve up Poland before even meeting with our officials. It is like saying to Germany, we will take what you started and work with it.

[Gordy 0]

It is a general rule, not Polish in particular. Humans are unlikely to be trusted anytime.

[Tovarish 0]

No not the same brush, but still, they did carve up Poland before even meeting with our officials.  It is like saying to Germany, we will take what you started and work with it.  

Ah, gotcha.

[bn880 5]

It is a general rule, not Polish in particular. Humans are unlikely to be trusted anytime.

Well I guess that is also true. I mean not everyone, but to a large extent.

[sputnik monroe 102]

I have always commended the Poles for their action during the war. In my opinion they have always been a brave and stalwart people. Knocked down, but never out.

   As for the warsaw rebellion. The soviets were treacherous bastards, they stood by and let the Germans slaughter the resistance. After all a people strong willed enough to resist against Fascism would most likely resist against Communist occuping forces to.

 

   I cannot make any apologies for the US either though. Roosevelt was a scumbag for making deals with the Soviets. He let the Polish people down, had he allowed US aid to the resistance with supply drops and other assistance things might have gone much differently.

    I can't bash Churchill though. From all I've ever read he was all for assisting the Poles during the Warsaw uprising.

    I tip my hat this day to all the Poles who fought and/or died for their nation and for a better Europe not just in the Warsaw rebellion, but the entire second world war. They are a brave people and have always kept and earned their pride.

[Pathy 0]

Bn880 you seem to be doing everything possible to insult as many countries as possible

Over 200'000 people died while the Soviets stood and watched.

[bn880 5]

Sputnik, Churchill took part in the carving up of Poland, without consideration for the Poles, that is where you can bash him.

Of course there is no shame for the people who stood up proud and were let down by everyone, they were brave indeed, too bad Poland had to lose those people.

[Gordy 0]

I have always commended the Poles for their action during the war. In my opinion they have always been a brave and stalwart people. Knocked down, but never out.

   As for the warsaw rebellion. The soviets were treacherous bastards, they stood by and let the Germans slaughter the resistance. After all a people strong willed enough to resist against Fascism would most likely resist against Communist occuping forces to.

 

   I cannot make any apologies for the US either though. Roosevelt was a scumbag for making deals with the Soviets. He let the Polish people down, had he allowed US aid to the resistance with supply drops and other assistance things might have gone much differently.

    I can't bash Churchill though. From all I've ever read he was all for assisting the Poles during the Warsaw uprising.

    I tip my hat this day to all the Poles who fought and/or died for their nation and for a better Europe not just in the Warsaw rebellion, but the entire second world war. They are a brave people and have always kept and earned their pride.

It's all true, but there are bad sides to it.

Now most of Poles live the past instead fo future. They are unwilling to change. Many say Germans did not defeat us, but I say they did. The war changed Polish mentality which was even more broadened during communism. Now we have only leftovers of what once was a Polish spirit. It will take another decades to change that.

[Grizzlie 0]

Thank you Sputnik Monroe.

U r right Gordy. I can only said it is somekind of "brain washing" made by commustic propaganda. It was easier (and polical correct in this era) to keep ppl remembering past than give them bread - "We do not have food, but it all German fault". But now i hope we will remember past watching in future avoiding mistakes we did (now we r allies with one of our historical enemies )

@bn880 Maybe u r right about stupid leadership, but do u know any country with wise one ?

But seriously. I have heard interesting opinion. Insurgency failed, but showed that "ordinary" people can fight againt all odds, and maybe it is reason that Soviets were not so fast to "keep order" here by force like in other countrie. I do not know if it is "fully" right, but i think there is something in it.

[bn880 5]

Yes, that was basically the same spirit AFAIK which lead to Poland getting rid of Soviet Communism first. With some support from the US mind you.

Edit: Grizzly, there is good leadership all over the world, especially compared to Poland's. Look even at South Korea, sure they screwed up by going to Iraq, but look at their economy etc. Of coruse Poland can no longer blam the war for it's problems, not even the communists. Look towards your true friends, in EU, and build a less corrupted and productive nation. Wish you could do that all on your own, I know.

The mindset i have picked up from all Poles in Canada is one of competing with the other Pole. That's the same kind of spirit that destroys a Nation by creating corruption, people need to work honestly for their society, not jsut their pocket books. Those honest people (if they exist) will be the new heroes of Poland, not the rebels.

[Grizzlie 0]

@bn880

For this "if they exists" i should use my glove, best steel one

Point of sitting changes point of view Say to south corean students that their gov is wise, and they will show you their skills in martial arts with you as target as aggreement wit you

Of course u r righ about corruption. It was one of reasons i voted to join EU - their procures can help us to get rid of BIG corruption (small is impossible to get rid of).

And, i'm sorry to say it - your post showed me u do not understand what happened when we were communistic country. For few generations we were living with "double morality" where private property was nothing, and gov. one - nobody's. Get rid of commusm was the easiest part, more complicated is to change this morality. I think we need few generations to fix it, and start was made. More and more ppl starting to earn money as honest as possible (mostly hard working on their own). But when u have 18% of unemploynment it is hard to tell "u have to be honest" and give nothing to live. Transformation from commustic economy took a long time and costed alot.

But as i said i think we can handle it (with a little help of our friends ).

[bn880 5]

I know as well, remember I used to live there. I think you don't understand how it is, because private property was and IS everything, that is the morality that is the problem of corruption. And communism was maybe easiest, but not really considering how long it took.

I have a better idea now of what is happening at a larger picture because I don't have to put up with the 18% and the constant afairs people create there, I can look upon Poland's situation from a much less corrupted and mroe stable place, and I know what is wrong; it is the peoples' mentality, and especially the leaders'.

Forgot to mention, I know some people from South Korea too, and they are smart enough to complement their economy and achievements.

[xawery 0]

Poland is rather well-known for military victories and diplomatic defeats... As Otto von Bismarck said: "You can't destroy the polish national-consciousness or Poles on the battlefield, but if you give them power, they will destroy themselves". Polnische/Poolse Landtag is the germanic reference to a chaotic meeting, in 'honour' of the incompetence of the Polish parliament during the 18th century.

The Warsaw uprising was an extremely heroic act of stupidity. Strangely enough, Poles are rather hell-bent on attaining the status of martyrs through their own actions. As it would happen, the only Polish uprising that happened to succeed (the Greater-Poland Uprising) is the least well-documented one, and most certainly the least well-remembered one. The Polish mentality is plagued by an identification with irreflexive martyrdom; thus only excessively blood-soaked actions and undertakings are commemorated in Polish history.

Incidentally, from Poland's point of view, joining the coalition of the willing wasn't such a bad move at all. Instead of becoming Germany and France's obediant lapdog (what was Chirac thinking when he gave his "you passed a good chance to remain silent"-speech?), it became the obedient lapdog of the USA, one of its more loyal allies over the past few decades. By doing so, Poland became less unimportant within the European political scene. Relatively, Polish troops have achieved good results in Iraq without suffering significant losses. All in all, the results of this decision could have been worse. Still, time will show...

In sum, Poland is a quarrelsome nation, only united when it bleeds collectively. Ironically, Poland's historically disadvantageous geographical position isn't so bad at all, when one takes a closer look: in my eyes, the threat from the east and the west is the only thing that has kept the country together throughout the centuries. Whenever there was relative peace, the country was plunged into a period of political chaos. Bah...

regards,

X.

[bn880 5]

The Warsaw uprising was an extremely heroic act of stupidity.

Well depending on who you are referring to, the people doing the fighting were certainly not to blame for stupidity, plus THE ultimate stupidity may lay with the USSR. I would say it did not help Russian/Polish relations at all after this(err no kidding). One way or another Russia has felt their ignorant move, as with other mistakes it has made.

Quote[/b] ]Incidentally, from Poland's point of view, joining the coalition of the willing wasn't such a bad move at all. Instead of becoming Germany and France's obediant lapdog (what was Chirac thinking when he gave his "you passed a good chance to remain silent"-speech?), it became the obedient lapdog of the USA, one of its more loyal allies over the past few decades. By doing so, Poland became less unimportant within the European political scene. Relatively, Polish troops have achieved good results in Iraq without suffering significant losses. All in all, the results of this decision could have been worse. Still, time will show...

Oh no, it is not quite like that. Poland is more recognized but for being more like a dog off its chain. It will not gain much fro mthe USA, while it is gaining from EU. USA will not even lift Visa requirements when Poland is part of EU. That is with supporting em Yanks on the battlefield, working hard to build their cities like New York, and gobbling up their culture. Now, today Poland has a bullseye on it like Spain did, which it did NOT have before it went to Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]In sum, Poland is a quarrelsome nation, only united when it bleeds collectively. Ironically, Poland's historically disadvantageous geographical position isn't so bad at all, when one takes a closer look: in my eyes, the threat from the east and the west is the only thing that has kept the country together throughout the centuries. Whenever there was relative peace, the country was plunged into a period of political chaos. Bah...

Is that so? Actually it fits quite nicely into the mentality, unless otherwise united by threat of death, it's competition and corruption time. You know I am still Polish myself, but I can't help being disgusted by the state of things now. The basic fact is, you have good land, and you have a good population, if it doesn't work, it's the fault of the people. We'll see where it goes in EU, hopefully more positive relation with EU in the future.

[xawery 0]

Hey folks,

Quote[/b] ]Well depending on who you are referring to, the people doing the fighting were certainly not to blame for stupidity, plus THE ultimate stupidity may lay with the USSR. I would say it did not help Russian/Polish relations at all after this(err no kidding).  One way or another Russia has felt their ignorant move, as with other mistakes it has made.

Heh, I couldn't disagree with you more. Stalin's decision not to have his army support the uprising, while vile in itself, was strategically sound. It meant that the Germans would be weakened, and the AK (Home Army) which had staged the uprising would be pretty much wiped out. Need I remind you how the Soviets felt about the AK..?

In other words, what the Soviets did certainly wasn't stupid. The uprising, on the other, was yet another manifestation of the Polish nationalist-romantic spirit: to be able to perish for your country with your sabre raised high was a great honour. Polish hussars attacking Panzers with lances during the '39 campaign were another good example... I think it's pretty clear what my thoughts are on such actions.

But who knows? Perhaps coming into action, no matter how fatal in the end, was still better than doing nothing, waiting meekly for either the Germans or the Soviets to finish you off. What the NKVD did to 4000 Polish officers in 1940 didn't exactely suggest that Polish nationalists could expect good treatment from the Russians, once the Germans were driven out of Warsaw. So they fought... and died.

Quote[/b] ] Oh no, it is not quite like that.  Poland is more recognized but for being more like a dog off its chain.  It will not gain much fro mthe USA, while it is gaining from EU.  USA will not even lift Visa requirements when Poland is part of EU.  That is with supporting em Yanks on the battlefield, working hard to build their cities like New York, and gobbling up their culture.  Now, today Poland has a bullseye on it like Spain did, which it did NOT have before it went to Iraq.

That's very true. I certainly wish Poland hadn't involved itself in the Iraq war. However, bearing in mind political influence, Poland has most certainly gained something: the image of a rebellious loud-mouth, not about to be silenced. Not a very positive image, I admit, but it's better than being a docile follower of France. On the other hand, Poland's future depends on the EU and not the US, so antagonising the most powerful nations of the Union wasn't exactely the smartest thing to do.

Whether joining the coalition of the billing was a good idea or a bad one really depends on which interests have priority...

Quote[/b] ]Is that so?  Actually it fits quite nicely into the mentality, unless otherwise united by threat of death, it's competition and corruption time.  You know I am still Polish myself, but I can't help being disgusted by the state of things now.  The basic fact is, you have good land, and you have a good population, if it doesn't work, it's the fault of the people.     We'll see where it goes in EU, hopefully more positive relation with EU in the future.

It's really a frightening pattern when one thinks about it. Poland just isn't suitable for a democracy, as frightening as it may sound. Look at the Polish politics throught the ages: the 18th century, the interbellum, even now... whenever a political system resembling a democracy was in place, the whole country was in shambles. It's really discouraging to see that unless there is a single unifying threat, the Poles only think about themselves and their own private interests. I am a Polish emigrant myself: I was honestly glad to leave the country and with it the disgusting culture of corruption and bribery. This culture has truly seeped through to all levels of society! Hardly anyone is evaluated on merit - it's who you know, and who you're paying. And I'm not only talking about politics - the educational system is a hash. When I see to what ends my friends' parents go just to get them a place at the supposedly free universities... Disgusting.

Sorry for the rant chaps, but I just had to let it out. Phew!

[bn880 5]

Okay we disagree then.

[xawery 0]

But... I want to know why we disagree:) Why do you think the Soviets not aiding the uprising was stupid?

[bn880 5]

I already explained, they have a bad reputation, even until now, you can not possibly estimate the cost of such a reputation on their society. There are many things beyond what meets the eye and formal studies, and I can bet anything the Russians lost more from this than gained.

Wars do not end on the battlefield so to say, and today's wars are not even all fought on a battlefield.