Why so few co-op missions with armour?

[KeyCat 131]

Over the years I've seen very few co-op missions where you play as a tank (or APC) crew and if I should try to answer my own question above it would be...

- It's to damn difficult! You will be blown away by enemy AI almost instantly if they are nearby and without having time to even react or know what hit you. In short.. the AI is to good.

Let me explain... If you jump into a tank/APC it's a matter of a few seconds before the "uber AI" magicly picks you up on their "super radar" and blow you away, most of the times with one or two very well aimed sabots that seldom misses. Not to mention if there is enemy helicopters or planes in the air! Then you can expext a AG missile inbound the moment you start up your engines.

I have a few ideas on how to remedy this but I wanted to hear the general opinion first...

Maybe I'm all wrong and our group just s**k when trying to play as a tank crew???

I welcome any comments/thoughts about this issue...

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

No question about it, in unmodified OFP Armour is an absolute deathtrap, expecially against AI in armour. WGL remedies this some, but what is really needed to make armour effective/ realistic is a more detailed damage model, such as in combat mission. Of course, that would mean more work for the engine, which is probably why its so simple (but still better than any other game in the same category.) That would mean that basic RPGs and LAWs are effectively useless against heavy armour- the way it should be.

[KeyCat 131]

Thanks for your comment BH!

Do you know how WGL go about to do this? I mean, have they tweaked the armoured values or did they do something else?

I tried to dig around in the CONFIG.BIN for a long time yesterday in hope to find a parameter that increased the AI's dispersion for sabot/heat rounds. I did find one that I belive has something to do with it (accuracy=X in the tank classes) but it didn't change much at all even if I decreased the value by a factor of 10 (or even 100).

Before someone suggest lowering the skill level on enemy armour to minimum it's been tried (several times over the years). The problem with this is it slows down the AI's reaction time and frequency of firing their gun but they still aim to good. I don't want that, I want enemy AI to fire often but score a hit/kill much less often.

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[Placebo 29]

Moving to UM.

[bonko the sane 2]

good thing about wgl is that tanks have no radar, as it should be, and same goes to rotary air assets, its all based on visual input, its one hell of a challenge and excellent game ambience, personally i think its a shame theres not more wgl servers and missions around.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Bonko is right, and WGL does also change the armour values, making armour more vulnerable from the rear and sides (especially rear)

[Javito1986 0]

What's WGL and where can I find it?

[-IT-Q- 0]

WarGames Info Forum

there are also many wargames mission available on the page.

[killswitch 19]

good thing about wgl is that tanks have no radar, as it should be, and same goes to rotary air assets, its all based on visual input, its one hell of a challenge and excellent game ambience, personally i think its a shame theres not more wgl servers and missions around.

Actually, WGL makes playing in tanks against AI:s even more hazardous. Although you as a player don't have the OFP radar screen with the white/green/red squares, AI tanks will however still detect you just as fine as usual and will quite happily send a couple of SABOTs up your stove. In other words: they still have "radar", but you don't. Now that's a challenge, I can tell you

"Visual duelling" is indeed possible between human adversaries with WGL and really adds to the excitement, just as you say.

Me, I prefer being on foot in WGL or safely behind the front line controlling the troops in a CoC CE mission. Tanking in OFP using WGL is...unhealthy

With that said, I'm going back to the enjoying WGL in a scratch CE mission I've hacked up, trying to do a river crossing/breaching operation against the nasties on the other side. Wish me luck! /KS, CO Task Force Cojones, Nogova.

[KeyCat 131]

Thanks for clarifying Killswitch and yea if AI's still uses the same "magical radar" it will be even more difficult if your radar screen is removed. Can understand WGL is good for human vs human battles.

So the problem still exist... However the initial MP test we did yesterday shows that I have a workable solution. It's not a perfect solution but improves gameplay alot! At least now the AI don't shoot at you when they are outside your viewdistance wich is more than unfair if you ask me

Stay tuned....

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[KeyCat 131]

Just a heads-up for thoose that are interested...

I now have a working script that (IMO) improves the gameplay in co-op tank missions ten fold! Gone are the AI's "death rays" and now we finally have at least a fair chance to react to the threaths and survive in a tank battle against enemy AI! The first version will be specifically for MP co-op but I may eventually do a SP version later if enough interest.

The script is currently under beta testing and I will post a link to it in the MISSION EDITING & SCRIPTING section when it's ready.

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[Commando84 0]

sounds like a cool idea!

keep us updated

[BoweryBaker 0]

I don't believe people know the protocol to use certain armor and don't want to be unrealistic. My guess is its all simple really. How much firepower you need or what kind, then the terrain, then boom your choices come up and you pick.

[.granQ. 0]

you can remove the magic "radar" even for AI, and then they will have to use their eyes.

Also if you play on cadet setting you can put on "extended armor". hate it doesn't work on vetarn, anyway with that on, and make the AI playable on other side, both sides have higher "armor value", bmp takes 2-3 rpg's instead of 1.

[KeyCat 131]

you can remove the magic "radar" even for AI, and then they will have to use their eyes.

The "radar" works like this... When you are within LOS you show up as a target for the AI and they will engage you with their deadly accuracy! Sometimes also beyond your view distance. So I don't see how it could be removed without making the AI blind?

Quote[/b] ]

Also if you play on cadet setting you can put on "extended armor".

Personally I don't like the idea of cadet mode for several reasons. granQ, have you tried the script in MP againt the AI yet or are you just stuborn and stuck with your idea to disable the "radar" screen in the tanks (which I think is a great idea for human vs human tank battles but not for human vs AI)

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[Major Fubar 0]

Speaking for my LAN group (we have about 8 regulars) 2 or 3 of us enjoy "vehicular" missions (armour, unarmoured or aircraft). The other 6 always say "oh poo, not a vehicle mission - choose another one!".

I also agree about the "deathtrap" comments above - riding in a BMP or Bradley is almost guaranteed death if there is any enemy armour or AT troops around...

[KeyCat 131]

For thoose that are interested see topic below...

Armour Battle Fix MP 1.00 released

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[.granQ. 0]

actually, you can remove the "see radar" thing for humans as you said. But you can also make "irscanrange" to 0. And then he will use his eye value and not the IR.

So it not really like you said, but yes i am stuck with my idea since i know it works, no need for scripting (works directly, no cpu hit at all)

[SpecOp9 0]

Thats why mission makers should make a repair truck

problem solved.

[KeyCat 131]

actually, you can remove the "see radar" thing for humans as you said. But you can also make "irscanrange" to 0. And then he will use his eye value and not the IR.

I stand corrected and now see that it's indeed possible but requires you to un-pbo and modify config.bin/.cpp files for all enemy tanks you plan to use.

Quote[/b] ]

Thats why  mission makers should make a repair truck

LOL - fully agree that a repair truck should be available but the problem with this when playing with BIS default units you will not have much of a chance to make it back to that truck.

Using the script I can tell you that when we now play co-op's we actually retreat & repair much more since instead of being instantly killed we are more often heavily damaged by near misses, alot more fun if you ask me.

Anyway, each to his own I guess

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

[SpecOp9 0]

actually, you can remove the "see radar" thing for humans as you said. But you can also make "irscanrange" to 0. And then he will use his eye value and not the IR.

I stand corrected and now see that it's indeed possible but requires you to un-pbo and modify config.bin/.cpp files for all enemy tanks you plan to use.

Quote[/b] ]

Thats why  mission makers should make a repair truck

LOL - fully agree that a repair truck should be available but the problem with this when playing with BIS default units you will not have much of a chance to make it back to that truck.

Using the script I can tell you that when we now play co-op's we actually retreat & repair much more since instead of being instantly killed we are more often heavily damaged by near misses, alot more fun if you ask me.

Anyway, each to his own I guess

/Christer (a.k.a KeyCat)

I would just have somebody take control of the Repair and lag behind everyone else to avoid any fighting.

Then whenever needed it's closer than ever